Prayers to Mary

[abacabb3]

I hope to address this to a local priest tonight, but I would also like to pick the brains of Orthodox here.

I understand that the basis behind prayers to the dead is that the Church prays for each other and there is a genuine bond of love that transcends this earthly life.

However, when I read some Marian prayers...they appear to me to go beyond that. Saint Nilus of Sora Skete made the following prayer to Mary:

All-merciful Virgin Theotokos, Mother of compassions and love for mankind, my most beloved hope and aspiration! 0 Mother of the most sweet and most desired Savior, Who exceedeth every love, Jesus Christ, the Lover of mankind and my God, the Light of my darkened soul! I, the exceeding sinful and hopeless one, fall down before thee, to thee I make my prayer, 0 well-spring of compassion, Virgin Mary, who didst bear the Abyss of compassion and Depth of mercies and love for mankind: Have mercy on me, have mercy on me, I painfully cry to thee; have mercy on me who am all in wounds, who have fallen among brutish thieves and who am, alas!, stripped naked of the garment in which the Father clothed me. Wherefore I lie stripped of every good deed, my wounds stinking and festering before my madness. My Mistress, Theotokos, look down on me, I humbly pray thee, with thy merciful eye and despise me not, who am all in darkness, all in filth, all immersed in the mire of passions, terribly fallen and unable to stand. Do thou take pity on me and grant me a helping hand, lift me up out of sinful depths, 0 my Joy! Deliver me from them that surround me; make thy face to shine upon thy servant; save the perishing, cleanse the filthy, raise up the terrible fallen: for thou canst do all things, as thou art the Mother of God Almighty. Pour forth on me the oil of thy compassion and grant me to overflow the wine of compunction, for I have acquired thee as truly the only hope in my life; turn thou not away from me who flee to thee, but behold my grief, 0 Virgin, and the longing of my soul and accept this prayer and save me, 0 thou the Mediatress of my salvation. Amen.

This leads me to ask the following:

1. Aren't we praying to Mary in order that she pray to God for Him to have mercy? She does not have mercy.
2. If Mary offers "a helping hand" by her prayers, why is this not specific. It awfully sounds like Mary is the one who can literally lift him up out of sinful debts. Again, isn't this the power of God alone? So, why wouldn't a prayer offered to Mary make this more specific?
3. How is Mary a "Mediatress" of our salvation? There is one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. Mary was used by God in which to effect this, but wouldn't in regular conversation granting her the title "Mediatress" deliberately obscure this?

Saint Nilus of Sora Skete has some other prayers which would seem to me, off...

During my lifetime do thou not abandon me, for thou knowest, 0 Mistress, that I place all my hope on thee and all mine aspiring is alter thee.

Save me, thy humble and sinful servant, for thou knowest, all-merciful Lady, that, alter God, I place all my hope in thee, and that I have no other refuge of salvation but thee, 0 all-good one. Thou art my strength, 0 Mistress, thou art my power...

To whom then, can I turn, I the guilty one? Only to thee, the compassionate Mother of our Lord and Savior, the hope of the hopeless, the wall and protection of them that flee unto thee!

thee, as His Mother, hath He greatly magnified, revealing thee as the Queen of all creation and for us the signal [sic] refuge of salvation.

Prayers to the Theotokos {for every day of the week}

I appreciate your explanations as to how you would view these prayers and what makes for appropriate prayers to the dead.

 

[All4Christ]

I understand your concern. As I too have struggled, I think the others can answer better. I can give a little insight into the "mediatress" part.

Mary in no way replaces her Son in the work of salvation, nor does she serve in the technical sense as “mediatrix” or mediator between God and us. Although the liturgy at times attributes to her the title Mediatrix, the expression can be understood only in the light of her Son’s saving activity. She “mediates” for us only insofar as she prays and intercedes on our behalf. This is the calling—and the blessed possibility—offered to all of us, insofar as we, like the Mother of God, willingly offer ourselves, together with the world around us, to the mercy and grace of our Lord.

There is only “one Mediator between God and men,” the apostle declares, “the man Jesus Christ, who gave Himself as a ransom for all…” (1 Tim 2:5f). Orthodox Christians know this intuitively. Yet they also know that Jesus’ mother never ceases to intercede for us and, indeed, to “mediate” our prayer before God.
MOST HOLY THEOTOKOS, SAVE US!

(This won't help with all of it, but there is a good amount of poetic license in some of the prayers. And yes, I know the question that brings up...why leave it in a confusing wording? It is understood properly in the Orthodox context, despite it sounding like it means something else to those of us who come from Protestant backgrounds.)

 

[Widlast]

This leads me to ask the following:

1. Aren't we praying to Mary in order that she pray to God for Him to have mercy? She does not have mercy.

Of course she has mercy. I can have mercy on someone, so can you.

2. If Mary offers "a helping hand" by her prayers, why is this not specific. It awfully sounds like Mary is the one who can literally lift him up out of sinful debts. Again, isn't this the power of God alone? So, why wouldn't a prayer offered to Mary make this more specific?

You are reading way too much into it. Note that prayers of that time period were often rather poetic.

3. How is Mary a "Mediatress" of our salvation? There is one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. Mary was used by God in which to effect this, but wouldn't in regular conversation granting her the title "Mediatress" deliberately obscure this?

This is straightforward RCC and Orthodox doctrine. St. Mary, as His Mother, is in the position to mediate with Christ on the behalf of sinners, thus the title Mediatrix (or Mediatress). Jesus is rather fond of His mum and will deny her nothing.

I appreciate your explanations as to how you would view these prayers and what makes for appropriate prayers to the dead.

And there is the problem, the word "dead". It amazes me how many "Christians" have no idea who is or is not "dead".
What does scripture say? God is the God of the living, not the dead. St. Mary is very much alive, as are all the Saints.

When Jesus chatted with Moses, he didn't look very dead did he?

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

I hope to address this to a local priest tonight, but I would also like to pick the brains of Orthodox here.

I understand that the basis behind prayers to the dead is that the Church prays for each other and there is a genuine bond of love that transcends this earthly life.

However, when I read some Marian prayers...they appear to me to go beyond that. Saint Nilus of Sora Skete made the following prayer to Mary:

All-merciful Virgin Theotokos, Mother of compassions and love for mankind, my most beloved hope and aspiration! 0 Mother of the most sweet and most desired Savior, Who exceedeth every love, Jesus Christ, the Lover of mankind and my God, the Light of my darkened soul! I, the exceeding sinful and hopeless one, fall down before thee, to thee I make my prayer, 0 well-spring of compassion, Virgin Mary, who didst bear the Abyss of compassion and Depth of mercies and love for mankind: Have mercy on me, have mercy on me, I painfully cry to thee; have mercy on me who am all in wounds, who have fallen among brutish thieves and who am, alas!, stripped naked of the garment in which the Father clothed me. Wherefore I lie stripped of every good deed, my wounds stinking and festering before my madness. My Mistress, Theotokos, look down on me, I humbly pray thee, with thy merciful eye and despise me not, who am all in darkness, all in filth, all immersed in the mire of passions, terribly fallen and unable to stand. Do thou take pity on me and grant me a helping hand, lift me up out of sinful depths, 0 my Joy! Deliver me from them that surround me; make thy face to shine upon thy servant; save the perishing, cleanse the filthy, raise up the terrible fallen: for thou canst do all things, as thou art the Mother of God Almighty. Pour forth on me the oil of thy compassion and grant me to overflow the wine of compunction, for I have acquired thee as truly the only hope in my life; turn thou not away from me who flee to thee, but behold my grief, 0 Virgin, and the longing of my soul and accept this prayer and save me, 0 thou the Mediatress of my salvation. Amen.

This leads me to ask the following:

1. Aren't we praying to Mary in order that she pray to God for Him to have mercy? She does not have mercy.
2. If Mary offers "a helping hand" by her prayers, why is this not specific. It awfully sounds like Mary is the one who can literally lift him up out of sinful debts. Again, isn't this the power of God alone? So, why wouldn't a prayer offered to Mary make this more specific?
3. How is Mary a "Mediatress" of our salvation? There is one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. Mary was used by God in which to effect this, but wouldn't in regular conversation granting her the title "Mediatress" deliberately obscure this?

Saint Nilus of Sora Skete has some other prayers which would seem to me, off...

During my lifetime do thou not abandon me, for thou knowest, 0 Mistress, that I place all my hope on thee and all mine aspiring is alter thee.

Save me, thy humble and sinful servant, for thou knowest, all-merciful Lady, that, alter God, I place all my hope in thee, and that I have no other refuge of salvation but thee, 0 all-good one. Thou art my strength, 0 Mistress, thou art my power...

To whom then, can I turn, I the guilty one? Only to thee, the compassionate Mother of our Lord and Savior, the hope of the hopeless, the wall and protection of them that flee unto thee!

thee, as His Mother, hath He greatly magnified, revealing thee as the Queen of all creation and for us the signal [sic] refuge of salvation.

Prayers to the Theotokos {for every day of the week}

I appreciate your explanations as to how you would view these prayers and what makes for appropriate prayers to the dead.

God alone is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Mary as a created being could not hear listen and discern thousands of prayers going her way every moment of the day. She is not God and does not have the capacity to process nor does any other saint of the past. There is one mediator between man and God and that is Jesus who is God incarnate. The Lord Jesus came to speak that which the father directed and pointed men towards repentance and his equality with the Father. In Mathew Jesus says. 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen

Jesus is with us through the Holy Spirit we have access to God almighty in Jesus Christ and he has all authority. Why would you devote yourself towards another and not take the direct access we have in Christ to make your prayers? In Hebrews 14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need

People are believing lying signs and wonders in the Marian apparitions. The vision in Guadalupe Mary directed them to build a temple for her honor. This message of people falling down to her is parallel to this passage in Isaiah
12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer,[fn] son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’

When you look at the shrines to her devotion is not her place almost indistinguishable from the place Christ has?

 

[~Anastasia~]

God alone is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Mary as a created being could not hear listen and discern thousands of prayers going her way every moment of the day. She is not God and does not have the capacity to process nor does any other saint of the past. There is one mediator between man and God and that is Jesus who is God incarnate. The Lord Jesus came to speak that which the father directed and pointed men towards repentance and his equality with the Father. In Mathew Jesus says. 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen

Jesus is with us through the Holy Spirit we have access to God almighty in Jesus Christ and he has all authority. Why would you devote yourself towards another and not take the direct access we have in Christ to make your prayers? In Hebrews 14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need

People are believing lying signs and wonders in the Marian apparitions. The vision in Guadalupe Mary directed them to build a temple for her honor. This message of people falling down to her is parallel to this passage in Isaiah
12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer,[fn] son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’

When you look at the shrines to her devotion is not her place almost indistinguishable from the place Christ has?

Hello, and welcome to CF, and to TAW. I pray you are blessed by being here.


And just a by-the-way ... people often confuse Orthodoxy with Catholicism.

We do not accept Marian apparitions, and we do not make statues of the Virgin Mary (or other Saints).

Just to keep from confusing the conversation.

And again, welcome to CF!

 

[~Anastasia~]

To the OP, I do understand your concerns.

This was what has taken the longest for me to understand, and I'm still in the process, though I know that I am at least.

I am thankful at least to have the understanding that we recognize God alone saves us. Mary indeed has a unique role in our salvation as the one from whom Christ took on human flesh, essentially as promised by God in the garden of Eden before the expulsion.

She has further roles as an intercessor for us - a role which we should ALL have for one another, but again, she is unique. Just as "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much" ... so does the Virgin Mary's prayer, yet she has the added role of having been Jesus' mother and from the Wedding at Cana (and quite possibly before) she has been asking (and simply assuming, read the dialogue at Cana) that He hears her.

But we still firmly recognize that God alone saves us, it is He Who defeated death for all of mankind (including the Virgin Mary), He whom we seek ultimate forgiveness from, He alone who IS grace and the only source of life or healing, and He alone Who judges us.

With that said, one thing I have noticed is that there are sometimes "shortening" of prayers or hymns.

Part of the hymns we sing are "through the prayers of the Theotokos, Savior, save us" but in some places it gets progressively shortened to "Theotokos save us".

Also, there are, in some cases, a different intent to the use of "save". Throughout history, many have appealed to the Theotokos for protection. It may just be part of something in humans to want to cry for their mothers at times like that? But it has often happened that there are many prayers, quickly, for her intercession for protection. And there are many amazing answers. Again, these prayers were ultimately TO God, just asking the Virgin Mary to pray for us as well. But my point is, that kind of "saving" was "save us from earthly danger" not "save our souls". Understanding that context has helped me in some cases.

To be honest, I don't read the prayers to the Virgin Mary. I DO ask her to pray for me. But when I read the prayers, I find things that I am sure I misunderstand, but BECAUSE I misunderstand them, I wouldn't be praying them rightly. I sometimes pray those prayers, and modify them, but I'm not sure if that's really proper either ... it might be ok to borrow various phrases and frameworks from the prayers of the Church in our own prayers, but modifying them to suit our own intent might not be, so I'm not suggesting this. It's just what I do because I'm still in that process.

I do know the Church's understanding, and I believe it to be the correct one. It's just that in my lack of understanding, I see something else reflected in certain prayers too, so as a condescension to my lack of understanding, I don't pray them, since if I did mean them as I understand them, I would be praying amiss. But I do trust the Church, and I know she possesses the RIGHT understanding. I'm just still in the process of connecting that understanding that I do agree with to the words of the prayers.

This is really my only continuing struggle, and I know it to be a lack of understanding on my part. Because as I said, I KNOW the Church teaches only God saves, and because grace is HIS energy, it can only ultimately come from Him as the Source.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Hello, and welcome to CF, and to TAW. I pray you are blessed by being here.


And just a by-the-way ... people often confuse Orthodoxy with Catholicism.

We do not accept Marian apparitions, and we do not make statues of the Virgin Mary (or other Saints).

Just to keep from confusing the conversation.

And again, welcome to CF!

Hi thanks for the welcome, I am blessed here as I was on Yahoo spirituality section and it is a museum of trolls. I appreciate this forum much more.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hi thanks for the welcome, I am blessed here as I was on Yahoo spirituality section and it is a museum of trolls. I appreciate this forum much more.

I'm glad to hear it. I left Yahoo a looonngggg time ago, though it was a great blessing at one time. I'm still friends irl with a few I met on yahoo almost 20 years ago.

These forums are very structured, btw, which helps cut down on trolls. Different kinds of discussion are allowed in different places. (And this is indeed the place one is allowed to disagree with Orthodoxy, so I'm not saying your post was out of line. ) But if you ever need help navigating, let us know. Each forum should have a Statement of Purpose stickied to the top with the rules, if you ever need to know.

And if you ever see an actual troll, please do report it. No need to answer back. Staff will take care of it.

Once again, welcome!

 

[Lukaris]

I think some of us on the laity understand the Mother of God as also the Lord's Church exemplified in Revelation 12. She was told that she would be blessed in Luke 1:45-55 and the Lord told His apostle to behold her in John 19:26-27.

We believe the saints and the earthly living are joined together in our liturgy. Our prayers are all to the Holy Trinity, then we seek the intercession of the Theotokos ( the bearer of God, Jesus Christ ) & the saints.We confess our sins to God and we give thanks & remembrance to our Lord's bearing our sins on the cross in the Holy Eucharist.

 

[abacabb3]

Of course she has mercy. I can have mercy on someone, so can you.

Widlast, thank you so much for your frank reply. If you do not mind me asking, can you have mercy on me for my sin if I did not sin personally against you? ANd, in what way?

Note that prayers of that time period were often rather poetic.

Indeed, but the ones I quoted were written in the 1800s. Though, "I place all my hope in thee, and that I have no other refuge of salvation but thee," is rather jarring. Perhaps you can explain to me how you would pray that prayer in italics and how you would mean it?

St. Mary, as His Mother, is in the position to mediate with Christ on the behalf of sinners, thus the title Mediatrix (or Mediatress). Jesus is rather fond of His mum and will deny her nothing.

Well, Christ says He will give us anything we ask in His name, so that includes us praying to Him and of course Mary or any other saint for that matter praying to Him. Can we also call you, me, St Cyprian, and others mediators in an equivalent sense then?
Please do not read into my questions rhetorical jabs. I am asking earnestly.

 

[abacabb3]

Hello, and welcome to CF, and to TAW. I pray you are blessed by being here.


And just a by-the-way ... people often confuse Orthodoxy with Catholicism.

We do not accept Marian apparitions, and we do not make statues of the Virgin Mary (or other Saints).

Just to keep from confusing the conversation.

And again, welcome to CF!

Some Oriental Orthodox accept the apparitions: Why millions of Muslims are seeing apparitions of the Mother Mary

I also know that according to legend, St Gregory the Illuminator's grandmother had Mary appear to her in a dream.

So, I do wonder if some old school Orthodox believe in it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

1. Aren't we praying to Mary in order that she pray to God for Him to have mercy? She does not have mercy.

but her showing of mercy is to ask God for mercy. she is free not to pray for us should she so choose, but since she is merciful and loves us, she asks her Son for mercy on us.

2. If Mary offers "a helping hand" by her prayers, why is this not specific. It awfully sounds like Mary is the one who can literally lift him up out of sinful debts. Again, isn't this the power of God alone?

but she can lift anyone out of sinful debts, if her Son wills that she is the one doing the lifting. the angels carried Lazarus to Abraham's bosom, which they can only do by God's allowance and His power. she can do nothing apart from Him.

3. How is Mary a "Mediatress" of our salvation? There is one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. Mary was used by God in which to effect this, but wouldn't in regular conversation granting her the title "Mediatress" deliberately obscure this?

Christ's mediation is that humanity and divinity are united in Him, totally, completely, fully, etc. that humanity that He has He got from her. her "yes" to allow the Lord to take flesh from her is her mediation, because she supplied the mediating flesh of the only Mediator. it is only obscure because of the narrow way modern Christians define mediating, which is not the prayer's intent.

remember, whatever she does is only by the will and authority of her Son

 

[All4Christ]

I was thinking about this after service tonight. There are a few ways that make sense to me for why we ask the Theotokos to have mercy.

1. I know I am offended and hurt when someone hurts my mother or anyone in my family. When we sin, we are essentially putting the nails in the cross, which we know was a horribly difficult time for her. We ask mercy from her in regards to that.
2. Have mercy also has a secondary meaning of "have compassion"
3. What Matt said

I had a few other thoughts...but they aren't coming to me right now. If I think of them, I'll let you know

 

[abacabb3]

but her showing of mercy is to ask God for mercy. she is free not to pray for us should she so choose, but since she is merciful and loves us, she asks her Son for mercy on us.

Help me with this. Why isn't it bad taste to speak in that way? I don't say, "Matt show me mercy," "Matt you are my only hope I turn to no one else," "Matt, you are my salvation." Sure, I can mean "Matt show me mercy [through your holy prayers" but it really does not sound that way, right? But, if I can speak of you, Saint Cyprian, and Saint Mary all in the same way it would seem less jarring.

remember, whatever she does is only by the will and authority of her Son

Do her prayers avail the beleiver more than any other saint?

 

[Widlast]

Widlast, thank you so much for your frank reply. If you do not mind me asking, can you have mercy on me for my sin if I did not sin personally against you? ANd, in what way?

If I should encounter you, and you were in distress of some kind (such as the fellow the Good Samaritan found in the roadway), I could show mercy to you regardless of whatever sins you may have committed against others.

Indeed, but the ones I quoted were written in the 1800s. Though, "I place all my hope in thee, and that I have no other refuge of salvation but thee," is rather jarring. Perhaps you can explain to me how you would pray that prayer in italics and how you would mean it?

I would not pray that prayer as written, I ask that St. Mary should intercede with Jesus on my behalf, but I would not make any claims as to Her being the " refuge of salvation". I agree that some folks do go a it overboard with the devotion to St. Mar.

Well, Christ says He will give us anything we ask in His name, so that includes us praying to Him and of course Mary or any other saint for that matter praying to Him. Can we also call you, me, St Cyprian, and others mediators in an equivalent sense then?
Please do not read into my questions rhetorical jabs. I am asking earnestly.

Yep, pick your favorite. Asking another sinner to intercede is kind of a waste of time, that's why we petition Saints to intercede.
If you want something from the King, you pester the Duke, not the stable boy.

 

[All4Christ]

I think some of those "only to thee" and "you are my only hope" are in relation to her role in participating in our salvation (i.e. giving birth to Jesus). I read some prayers once that had the phrase above about "you are my only hope" in relation to Mary, but the next prayer said You are my only hope to God. It may seem contradictory, but again, my stubborn old thought process says that it would make more sense if the implied words were also spoken. Perhaps it'd be less poetic and wouldn't flow the same way. Either way, the underlying meaning is important to keep in mind. We need to understand all prayers in the services in context with the other prayers as well. Often, you will see "through your prayers" added on.

I found this post online from Seraphim98 that was helpful:

Perhaps my comments will obfuscate more than clarify, but what follows is in short, the conclusions I came to as I wrestled through such issues. Things like "Theotokos, save us" used to really give me pause.

1. Patience is a virtue. The liturgical services of the Church do not stand in isolation from one another. Abbreviated expressions in one service may find fuller expression in another service. For example, one service might read "Blessed Theotokos save us." and yet another "Blessed Theotokos save us by your prayers."

2. Mary IS special. She was the birth giver of God. It is HER humanity that God took as His own. She is the first after Christ to be resurrected. She is the first in the Church after Christ to whom all others who have come into the Church have been added. I've encountered the expression (judge for yourselves it's worth) that if Christ is the Head of the Church, Mary is the neck upon which the Head turns. The graces that she enjoys and employs are the greatest among all the saints and thus she has a very special place of veneration and honor within the Church.

3. Like Scripture, the liturgies and services of the Church are deep. Consider that in the same service one may hear the Virgin addressed as sinless and pure, and just a little later hear Christ addressed as the only sinless one. What are we to think; were those who put the services together schizophrenic or maybe just careless editors? No, of course not. We must understand the relativeness and context limitedness of things applied to the Theotokos that in Christ are absolute.

For example, so far as we know, and so far as I've been taught, Mary had no personal sin, yet being human she still suffered from the effects of the fall, the sin that separated humanity from it's life in God. She was sinless, but also mortal. Christ was and is absolutely sinless, being the new Adam.

4. We are members of one another and each of us in Christ has a unique role in the revelation of Him. Mary has the unique role of Theokokos. That role is not just fulfilled historically in time, but ontologically throughout time within the body of Christ. It is through her He is revealed and formed in us, enabling us to be thereafter to be transformed and transfigured to be like Him. We could say she enables us in our sphere to be theotokos with respect to the revelation of Christ in our own lives. All this of course is enabled and empowered by the Spirit, of Whom our Lady has rich and superabundant indwelling.

Thus with respect to seeking God's help, protection, governance there are occasions we appeal to the Theotokos, not as if she had any power or grace to these ends in her own right, but rather that just as the aid the head of any natural body directs to any given member through its various other members, so in the Body of Christ certain types of aid are directed through her. We have no conceptual difficultly with angels being the ministers of God's grace, why is it a conceptual problem that His saints, and the chiefest of them, His mother, are entrusted to be even more particular ministers of His grace? We are one Body after all. She is part of us, and us part of her. And what living body has no specialized organs or members that have no communion according to its nature with every other of its members?

Since she is Theotokos we must then understand all praise of her in her role within the Body as relative to and expressive of her particular grace as Theotokos.

5. Given all the above, when confronting difficult/hard sayings expressions concerning the Theotokos in our liturgical services…especially those with long and venerable histories within the Church, it is wiser to look upon such expressions as occasions for deep reflection, prayer, and contemplation about what they mean, and how they mean it, rather than becoming agitated and fearful some horrendous fly has been preening in the Church's precious ointments.

ETA: When I pray prayers like these, which admittedly isn't that often (I tend to avoid prayers that I don't understand, for better or worse), I add on the extra words needed to clarify the meaning in my mind. I'm not sure if that is the right thing, but it helps me keep the proper meaning in mind.

 

[Lukaris]

Personally I just usually pray the Magnificat & a general petition for the prayers of the Theotokos & the saints. These are secondary to direct prayers to God ( like the Lord's Prayer). These are matters of personal piety.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Help me with this. Why isn't it bad taste to speak in that way? I don't say, "Matt show me mercy," "Matt you are my only hope I turn to no one else," "Matt, you are my salvation." Sure, I can mean "Matt show me mercy [through your holy prayers" but it really does not sound that way, right? But, if I can speak of you, Saint Cyprian, and Saint Mary all in the same way it would seem less jarring.

well, you would be fine to ask any way, it's the understanding that matters.

Do her prayers avail the beleiver more than any other saint?

yes, because she is the Lord's mother. Christ fully submitted to the Law, so He honors His mother.

 

[All4Christ]

Personally I just usually pray the Magnificat & a general petition for the prayers of the Theotokos & the saints. These are secondary to direct prayers to God ( like the Lord's Prayer). These are matters of personal piety.

Same here, though I've added a few others on occasion that aren't quite as strongly worded.

 

[All4Christ]

Father told me that these weren't necessarily prayers that I needed to say. The important part is to understand and agree with the Orthodox Theology of the Theotokos. The services are part of our Theology, so it is important to understand he phrases like "Most Holy Theotokos, save us", etc. I really do want to understand and embrace the relationship with the Theotokos more, but until (unless) I can understand and affirm the more pious (i.e. with strong wording) prayers, I'm not including them in personal prayer time. I do try to incorporate some prayers that make more sense to me, but I can't focus on certain prayers without questioning the wording. And that's the main point...it's the wording I struggle with, not the Theology. I did struggle with the Theology at the beginning, but now that part at least makes sense

It is good to try to understand the reasoning behind the prayers though, imho. Almost 10 years later, I am still working on understanding it