Prayer of the Hours

[Pavel Mosko]

How similar is the Coptic Prayers of the Hours to the various EO jurisdictional equivalents? (It's content and structure)
Prime


Secondly, how similar is the chanting style?
http://www.agpeya.org/thanksgivingprayer.mp3


Somewhere in one of my book cases I have this book, but I recall it being different than the Coptic pocket Service book (The Agpeya , The Coptic Book of Hours) which is based on the monastic prayer rule of prayer. (Lots of topical prayers on various subjects rather than something that would be used during Matins or Vespers etc.)

A Pocket Prayer Book for Orthodox Christians - Red Vinyl Cover

 

[AMM]

How similar is the Coptic Prayers of the Hours to the various EO jurisdictional equivalents? (It's content and structure)
Prime

Secondly, how similar is the chanting style?
http://www.agpeya.org/thanksgivingprayer.mp3

Somewhere in one of my book cases I have this book, but I recall it being different than the Coptic pocket Service book (The Agpeya , The Coptic Book of Hours) which is based on the monastic prayer rule of prayer. (Lots of topical prayers on various subjects rather than something that would be used during Matins or Vespers etc.)

A Pocket Prayer Book for Orthodox Christians - Red Vinyl Cover

I was given a copy of the Agpeya by a Coptic priest the first time I visited a Coptic Church! It's lovely. If I recall correctly, it's very much driven by the Psalter, is that right? It seems (if I am remembering) like it's almost exclusively Psalms, with a few introductory and conclusory prayers. I'm honestly not too sure about Orthodox "prayer of the hours". I did find this (Daily Cycle or Hours of Prayer in the Church), but I don't know how much it's influenced by monastic prayer hours.

Chanting sounded similar enough. Obviously some differences (just as there are differences between Byzantine or Russian or Gregorian or Anglican or any other chant styles), but it sounded to be more like Byzantine or Antiochian chant style than, say, Russian or Gregorian.

The "Little Red Prayer Book" is, like you said, a lot of prayers on various subjects, rather than hourly prayers (though it does have morning, midday, and evening prayers).

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Click on the first link at the top that is an example of the first bell of 6am or whenever Matins or Vespers starts. Yes it is very orientated from the Psalter. There some psalms that are for every hour, where I believe a some are unique to the hour.

But there are some original or unique prayers in the hour (from the rite), besides New Testament readings, and some familiar Orthodox litanies like the Trisagion in Coptic, The Orthodox Creed, a salute to the Theotokos etc.

 

[dzheremi]

The Trisagion in the Agpeya is in Greek, not Coptic.

The unique parts are things like the Thanksgiving Prayer, the Faith of the Church (from the Prime hour), the litanies, etc.

I got the feeling from last time I asked about this topic that it is not all that common for EO laypeople to pray the hours, or at least not as common as it is in the Coptic Orthodox Church. I don't know if that's true or not, but it seemed like it was more of a monastic practice among you guys. I think I had shared a video from Sr. Vassa, where she had talked about how it is not common practice. I can't remember. It was a while ago. A few years.

 

[Monk Brendan]

How similar is the Coptic Prayers of the Hours to the various EO jurisdictional equivalents? (It's content and structure)
Prime


Secondly, how similar is the chanting style?
http://www.agpeya.org/thanksgivingprayer.mp3


Somewhere in one of my book cases I have this book, but I recall it being different than the Coptic pocket Service book (The Agpeya , The Coptic Book of Hours) which is based on the monastic prayer rule of prayer. (Lots of topical prayers on various subjects rather than something that would be used during Matins or Vespers etc.)

A Pocket Prayer Book for Orthodox Christians - Red Vinyl Cover

The Byzantine and Coptic Hours have many of the same prayers, and I'm not talking about the Psalms, either.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The Trisagion in the Agpeya is in Greek, not Coptic.

Yeah I got it confused with this that appears above it a bit.

Tenoo oasht emmok o piekhristos nem pekyot en aghathos nem pi epnevma ethowab je akee ak soati emmon nai nan

 

[dzheremi]

Even that's half-Greek...all Coptic is half-Greek, or else it would be something else.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The Byzantine and Coptic Hours have many of the same prayers, and I'm not talking about the Psalms, either.

Yes I was hoping that would be the case. There were certain things that I thought were unique to the Coptic rite, (I thought they were Arabized Greek), but when I listened to a Greek Orthodox Divine liturgy a few years ago, I noticed the same things, so I realized I had to revise my view of what was Greek vs. Arabized Greek.


But it probably doesn't help things that my standard of EO chant and service was based on SS Peter and Paul's Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrystom (a church full of convert Americans)


https://www.amazon.com/Selections-Divine-Liturgy-Othodox-Church/dp/B004LCS0W8

 

[dzheremi]

The Byzantine and Coptic Hours have many of the same prayers, and I'm not talking about the Psalms, either.

Yep! Check out the prayer posted as "Prayer of the Hours" on the OCA's website for instance, OP:

Thou who at every season and every hour, in Heaven and on earth art worshipped and glorified, O Christ God; long-suffering, merciful and compassionate; Who lovest the just and showest mercy upon the sinner; Who callest all to salvation through the promise of blessings to come. O Lord, in this hour receive our supplications, and direct our lives according to Thy commandments.

Sanctify our souls. Purify our bodies. Correct our minds; cleanse our thoughts; and deliver us from all tribulations, evil, and distress. Surround us with Thy holy angels; that, guided and guarded by them, we may attain to the unity of the faith, and unto the knowledge of Thine unapproachable glory. For Thou art blessed unto ages of ages. Amen.

+++

Should look very familiar to anyone who knows the Agpeya. Nor should that be a surprise...monasticism and the practices associated with it, including the codification of the daily prayers as exemplified by the Agpeya in the Coptic tradition, not only obviously predate the schism at Chalcedon, but testify to the common origin of all Christian monasticism in the deserts of Egypt. So really a lot of things should be the same or very, very similar, since they come from the same place and time, more or less.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Yes I was hoping that would be the case. There were certain things that I thought were unique to the Coptic rite, (I thought they were Arabized Greek), but when I listened to a Greek Orthodox Divine liturgy a few years ago, I noticed the same things, so I realized I had to revise my view of what was Greek vs. Arabized Greek.

What I find interesting is that in the Coptic Divine Liturgy, the Priest holds the Body of Christ in his hands, and prays the definition of Chalcedon.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

What I find interesting is that in the Coptic Divine Liturgy, the Priest holds the Body of Christ in his hands, and prays the definition of Chalcedon.

I suspect someone will say he is professing the miaphyte belief.

 

[Monk Brendan]

I suspect someone will say he is professing the miaphyte belief.

My pastor said something that I had concluded a long time ago.

NOBODY today is a Monophysite as defined and condemned by the Council of Chalcedon, if there ever were any in the past.

And the only true Nestorians I have met are all Protestants.

 

[ArmyMatt]

the prayer to Christ the true Light is also similar.

eeeeenteresting.

 

[dzheremi]

I suspect someone will say he is professing the miaphyte belief.

I'd say that, sure, though I'm not sure I'm free to do so in this particular venue, so I'll leave it at that. What a glory it is to God that they should be able to look at what we pray and say "That is ours!", just as we can with the prayers that we both share that came from Egypt via St. John Cassian and others who took monasticism to all corners of the earth!

Anyway, the Agpeya descends from the hours as prayed in the Cenobitic monastic communities formed in Egypt in the fourth century AD, and St. Pachomius died over a century before Chalcedon was held, so there's really no need to bring Chalcedon into this thread at all. Some things really are pre-Chalcedonian, and this is one of them.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

And the only true Nestorians I have met are all Protestants.

I think that is largely due to the Eccumenical Dialogues from the ACOE to Catholicism and the other Churches / Communions in the last few decades (80s to early 2000s). I use to live in the San Jose area, there was a ACOE bishop who was very involved in that before becoming Chaldean Catholic 15 years ago (he jumped ship and took his California churches with him into the Chaldean Church).




My best friend who is in a Church of the East line of succession Church has given the Nestorian line. He of course comes from Protestantism as I was myself.

In talking with him on the classic conflict over the Theotokos and him giving the Birth to the Trinity objection of Nestorious I'm not sure how much of it was due to his past vs. actually in depth reading of the Characters of Church history concerning that issue (Nestorious, Theodore of Mopeustasia, various ACOE Patriarchs etc.).

One of the big points he likes to bring up is on Theodore and how he was anathematized generations after the time he lived and how that goes against normal juridical due process as far as the ability to confront your accuser etc.

 

[All4Christ]

Here is the First Hour from the Eastern Orthodox Hours

The First Hour

The primary “First hour” prayer is:

O Christ, the True Light, Who enlightenest and sanctifiest every man that cometh into the world: Let the Light of Thy countenance be signed upon us, that in it we may see the Unapproachable Light, and guide our steps in the doing of Thy commandments, through the intercessions of Thy most pure Mother, and of all Thy saints. Amen.

Both the Agpeya Prime and the EO First Hour focus on Christ as the true light.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I did notice that Youtube has all of the Prayers of the 1st hour in a series for those that are interested in that.