Prayer for Dead and Purgatory - and a Book

[Markie Boy]

I am really interested - how does prayer for the deceased work if there is no Purgatory?

Not a wise guy here, really wanting to learn.

Also - if you were to recommend one book as an intro to Orthodoxy what would it be? I'm a busy father of four, so if you can recommend one that's shorter to start would be great too!

 

[prodromos]

Love!

 

[~Anastasia~]

I am really interested - how does prayer for the deceased work if there is no Purgatory?

Not a wise guy here, really wanting to learn.

Also - if you were to recommend one book as an intro to Orthodoxy what would it be? I'm a busy father of four, so if you can recommend one that's shorter to start would be great too!

There IS an "intermediate state" where souls have left the body. The judgement is not until the end, after bodies have been resurrected.

In the meantime ... there is a lot we do not say definitively. But prayer is never wasted. We pray for people because we love them. And that is precious to God. And good for our own souls. And God always knew we would pray for them. Who knows by exactly what means and when and how He answers those prayers?

 

[Monk Brendan]

I am really interested - how does prayer for the deceased work if there is no Purgatory?

Not a wise guy here, really wanting to learn.

Also - if you were to recommend one book as an intro to Orthodoxy what would it be? I'm a busy father of four, so if you can recommend one that's shorter to start would be great too!

I would recommend THE ORTHODOX CHURCH by Timothy (now Metropolitan Kallistos) Ware.

 

[ArmyMatt]

because through the prayers of the Church, souls can receive comfort in torment and even escape torment.

plus, if God is outside of time, He can retroactively apply a prayer before you made it.

 

[Chris V++]

If God stands outside of time, then couldn't we technically pray even for our younger selves (let alone our deceased relatives? ) Wouldn't God have heard those prayers for our younger selves even before our present time? They already know time is relative and linked somehow to gravity. Apparently they have to reset clocks in satellites every so often to sync with our ground time .

 

[Chris V++]

souls can receive comfort in torment and even escape torment.

Do you mean escape hell?

 

[~Anastasia~]

If God stands outside of time, then couldn't we technically pray even for our younger selves (let alone our deceased relatives? ) Wouldn't God have heard those prayers for our younger selves even before our present time? They already know time is relative and linked somehow to gravity. Apparently they have to reset clocks in satellites every so often to sync with our ground time .

Thinking about this introduces a kind of time-travel paradox in my mind.

Obviously we are safe/alive, believing in God, what have you. So whatever we pray for was already accomplished. It makes me wonder - why ask? Or to seek to change something that already has happened? That suggests alternate realities or something.

We should certainly pray for ourselves. But I can't understand the logic of praying for ourselves past. Though I see what you're asking.

I have personally imagined that prayers for someone's salvation, say, might (have been) be answered by them having something of a revelation or change of heart as they are dying, to make them willing to turn to God - if we happen to know they were staunchly opposed to God the day before. I don't imagine God will change who they were - though He could manipulate any circumstances at any time to benefit them.

This water is too deep for me lol.

 

[ArmyMatt]

If God stands outside of time, then couldn't we technically pray even for our younger selves (let alone our deceased relatives? ) Wouldn't God have heard those prayers for our younger selves even before our present time? They already know time is relative and linked somehow to gravity. Apparently they have to reset clocks in satellites every so often to sync with our ground time .

technically yes. no prayer is too late for God no matter what it is. and in Orthodoxy, we do especially if you pay attention to the prayers.

 

[Chris V++]

Can you prove that your currently (super pleasant) self wasn't influenced by a prayer you haven't yet made for your younger self?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Do you mean escape hell?

no, hell is inescapable and only exists after Judgment Day. until that day, there is always hope.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Can you prove that your currently (super pleasant) self wasn't influenced by a prayer you haven't yet made for your younger self?

no I can't. this is God's business, and it's best not to speculate about it.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This thread is starting to feel like the Twilight Zone meets the Outer Limits!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Can you prove that your currently (super pleasant) self wasn't influenced by a prayer you haven't yet made for your younger self?

I wouldn't even try lol.

 

[peregrinus2017]

This thread is starting to feel like the Twilight Zone meets the Outer Limits!

If this keeps up I might have to find my copy of Dr. Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveler's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations.

 

[icxn]

Can you prove that your currently (super pleasant) self wasn't influenced by a prayer you haven't yet made for your younger self?

Romans 8:29 maybe?

 

[Chris V++]

I googled and found 76 Verses about God knowing us before we are born. What Does the Bible Say About God Knew Us Before We Were Born?
14 verses about the Book of Life 14 Bible verses about Book Of Life

'Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:4

' In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, ...' Ephesians

'... whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.' Rev 17 :8

I don't want to offend or start a debate about it, I just think it's pretty awesome. Who else had the authority to write these verses but God?

So is our name written in the 'Book of Life' before we are born, and 'blotted out' if we remain unrepentant? Or was it 'blotted out' after the fall, and rewritten when we come to faith, or is it just entered into the book of life after we come to faith, presuming there is a literal Book of Life? Or can't we know. Maybe it's another paradox that we aren't supposed to investigate: Predestination vs Free Will.

 

[buzuxi02]

I am really interested - how does prayer for the deceased work if there is no Purgatory?

Not a wise guy here, really wanting to learn.

Also - if you were to recommend one book as an intro to Orthodoxy what would it be? I'm a busy father of four, so if you can recommend one that's shorter to start would be great too!

Prayers for the dead are for your family members. Irrelevant of their state. We presuppose they are in heaven already.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Anyone remember how the show “Lost” started out incredibly well and then got into quantum physics and time travel and other weird stuff? I think this thread is Lost!

 

[Chris V++]

Anyone remember how the show “Lost” started out incredibly well and then got into quantum physics and time travel and other weird stuff? I think this thread is Lost!

I didn't watch the whole series but I believe everyone died in a plane crash and the 'lost' island was actually Purgatory, so your comment hit the nail on the head!

(No bulls eye emoji sadly)