Practicing Orthodox spirituality within RCC

[zippy2006]

Yes, nothing too see there... just a whole lot of half bloods.

Er.. isn't that basically what you're looking for? A compromise position between Latin and Eastern Christianity?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Er.. isn't that basically what you're looking for? A compromise position between Latin and Eastern Christianity?

Well, not really. I guess I'm just in a transition of some sort. Besides there aren't any EC in Norway anyway.
That being said they have the same liturgy as the Orthodox anyway, so if I were to get used to sung liturgy I'd rather just dox.

 

[Al Touthentop]

This is something I'm thinking about as I read orthodox literature.
Why do I have to convert into a ethnocentric parish with either russian sentiments or greek sentiments when I'm culturally at home in the west?

What's wrong with the Bible? Isn't it the epitome of "orthodox literature?"

 

[E.C.]

I wish you could visit a ROCOR parish. Yes, ROCOR is under the MP, however, they are VERY autonomous within the MP. They tend to adapt to the local culture a lot more than regular MP or EP parishes. One of my friends who grew up ROCOR said that when the reunion happened the only real noticable difference was that they added the Patriarch of Moscow to the litanies. A lot of parishes did go into schism, but many of them have returned.
There's also a ROCOR monastery not far from Seattle that is designed in the Norwegian style in part because the abbot is of Norwegian decent.

Frankly, I'd say visit the Russian church anyway. They are typically fewer political ties to Moscow than Greeks are to the EP. Even in Ukraine the canonical Church has more independence than the schismatics under the EP do. Yes, we have our own squabbles within the Church, but in this one I think the Russians are headed in a more correct direction than the EP. They also encourage a more traditional spiritual life than the Greeks have in the last 100 years. Sure, it may be awkward being the only non-Rusky there, but it's happened to many of us on this forum many times.

 

[Markie Boy]

This is something I'm thinking about as I read orthodox literature.
Why do I have to convert into a ethnocentric parish with either russian sentiments or greek sentiments when I'm culturally at home in the west?

I'm very hesitant to go for a third approach into Holy Orthodoxy for a number of reasons. Besides I'm neither russian nor greek enough for most orthodox.
I'm thinking of Pat. Bartholomew as a heretic and Pope Francis smaller sibling and for that reason I'm not cut out to go EP. As I see it I'm justing moving one step farther away from the cliff in the Roman church.

I'm not pro russian enough to be a good fit for the MP. I'm against the link between Putin and Pat. Kirill and I'm not into church slavonic etc.

On top of everything I absolutely hate sung liturgies. No kidding, I can't stand it!

So as you might see the reasons for me to dox officially are rather few in numbers. But, and this is a rather big but (pun not indented), I've fallen in love with Neptic theology and I absolutely adore this way of theology.
To think of God in these terms has enlightened my whole being, my spirit and my heart rejoice as I read about it!

Could I try to adopt the orthodox spirituality and receive the sacraments in the RCC you think? I'm toying with the idea of adopting the eastern orthodox fasting and prayers too.

Any thoughts? Will this be all in vain as you guys see it?


God bless.

Thanks for this insight. I recently read Augustine on singing in church. Apparently in his time he was not totally sold there should be any singing in church. So how Apostolic can a totally sung liturgy actually be?

I found this while trying to find information to combat the horrible music used in the average Catholic parish today.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thanks for this insight. I recently read Augustine on singing in church. Apparently in his time he was not totally sold there should be any singing in church. So how Apostolic can a totally sung liturgy actually be?

I found this while trying to find information to combat the horrible music used in the average Catholic parish today.

I'd be curious to read what he actually said. From all I've encountered, I'm pretty surprised by the idea there might have been no singing early on? (Maybe not totally sung - but even today ours is not totally sung. Almost though.)

 

[AMM]

That’s also a surprising story to me about Augustine, considering that his spiritual father, St Ambrose of Milan, developed the idea of antiphonal chanting and singing in church, and there is a tradition that St Ambrose and St Augustine sung the Te Deum (“We praise you, O God, we acknowledge you to be the Lord...”) spontaneously at St Augustine’s baptism under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit

 

[Markie Boy]

This passage from Confessions really stood out to me:

"So I waver between the danger that lies in gratifying the senses and the benefits which, as I know from experience, can accrue from singing. Without committing myself to an irrevocable opinion, I am inclined to approve of the custom of singing in church, in order that by indulging the ears weaker spirits may be inspired with feelings of devotion. Yet when I find the singing itself more moving than the truth which it conveys, I confess that this is a grievous sin, and at those times I would prefer not to hear the singer."

Here is the link to the whole piece: Augustine’s Inner Conflict about Music | internetmonk.com

In Confessions he does not seem to suggest we should sing everything, nor ditch it all. I am constantly reminded that writings of prominent names like Augustine are not equal to the Apostles. I consider the Didache to be a better source for early worship guidance than things of 250 years later, and I don't think it says anything of singing or music as part of the liturgy.

 

[ArmyMatt]

This passage from Confessions really stood out to me:

"So I waver between the danger that lies in gratifying the senses and the benefits which, as I know from experience, can accrue from singing. Without committing myself to an irrevocable opinion, I am inclined to approve of the custom of singing in church, in order that by indulging the ears weaker spirits may be inspired with feelings of devotion. Yet when I find the singing itself more moving than the truth which it conveys, I confess that this is a grievous sin, and at those times I would prefer not to hear the singer."

Here is the link to the whole piece: Augustine’s Inner Conflict about Music | internetmonk.com

In Confessions he does not seem to suggest we should sing everything, nor ditch it all. I am constantly reminded that writings of prominent names like Augustine are not equal to the Apostles. I consider the Didache to be a better source for early worship guidance than things of 250 years later, and I don't think it says anything of singing or music as part of the liturgy.

you could read this as St Augustine warning against music being distracting from prayer.

and just because the Didache doesn't mention it, that doesn't mean it's necessarily forbidden or looked down upon.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Thanks for this insight. I recently read Augustine on singing in church. Apparently in his time he was not totally sold there should be any singing in church. So how Apostolic can a totally sung liturgy actually be?

I found this while trying to find information to combat the horrible music used in the average Catholic parish today.

Secular Non Biblical Sources for The Lord Jesus Christ in History (Repost)

Pliny the Younger - Wikipedia


• Pliny the Younger (61-113 A.D.)

“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, When They Sang In Alternate Verses A Hymn To Christ, As To A God, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

.

 

[AMM]

This passage from Confessions really stood out to me:

"So I waver between the danger that lies in gratifying the senses and the benefits which, as I know from experience, can accrue from singing. Without committing myself to an irrevocable opinion, I am inclined to approve of the custom of singing in church, in order that by indulging the ears weaker spirits may be inspired with feelings of devotion. Yet when I find the singing itself more moving than the truth which it conveys, I confess that this is a grievous sin, and at those times I would prefer not to hear the singer."

Here is the link to the whole piece: Augustine’s Inner Conflict about Music | internetmonk.com

In Confessions he does not seem to suggest we should sing everything, nor ditch it all. I am constantly reminded that writings of prominent names like Augustine are not equal to the Apostles. I consider the Didache to be a better source for early worship guidance than things of 250 years later, and I don't think it says anything of singing or music as part of the liturgy.

That seems like a good reminder about the purpose of music. It is there to elevate the words, and it serves the words that are being prayed. If the music itself becomes the focus, and not the prayer, then that might be fine and beautiful - but it’s not the purpose of church music. So I don’t necessarily see this as criticizing music, but saying that it’s a good thing that can be abused

That’s how I would understand this passage, at least

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hmmmm.

It would be interesting to see a timeline of various things I've read, to be more sure. But just superficially, to me, it seems to fit the idea that music was specifically NOT to aim to draw emotional response.

I appreciate that especially in chanted readings.

I'm also reminded how it stands in stark contrast to some contemporary worship services. I remember my extreme distaste (before finding Orthodoxy) when I attended a service that was so overtly attempted emotional manipulation. I literally could not stand it and wanted very badly to escape that situation.

 

[Markie Boy]

Hmmmm.

It would be interesting to see a timeline of various things I've read, to be more sure. But just superficially, to me, it seems to fit the idea that music was specifically NOT to aim to draw emotional response.

I appreciate that especially in chanted readings.

I'm also reminded how it stands in stark contrast to some contemporary worship services. I remember my extreme distaste (before finding Orthodoxy) when I attended a service that was so overtly attempted emotional manipulation. I literally could not stand it and wanted very badly to escape that situation.

Totally agree. My brother attends a Baptist church where they do full blown band and electric guitar stuff. It's pretty much K-Love music in church. My old Baptist church in the same town did nothing but classic hymns (much better than the 70's folk music in our Catholic parish).

That music style just says, "hey, it's all about making us feel good". Makes me want to skip many weekends.

 

[Lost4words]

I myself dont like sung liturgy. I used to attend a parish where the priest liked to sing it at every Sunday mass.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I myself dont like sung liturgy. I used to attend a parish where the priest liked to sing it at every Sunday mass.

better get used to it though, the Liturgy is sung in heaven.

 

[Lost4words]

better get used to it though, the Liturgy is sung in heaven.

Maybe it wont all be singing.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Maybe it wont all be singing.

that's not what Revelation says

 

[Lost4words]

that's not what Revelation says

Probably a lot more to heaven and what goes on there than what is said in Revelation!

 

[ArmyMatt]

Probably a lot more to heaven and what goes on there than what is said in Revelation!

sure, but you'll be singing and worshipping the whole time.

 

[Lost4words]

sure, but you'll be singing and worshipping the whole time.

Thats not a given. Besides, i have a terrible singing voice! Lol