• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Featured Power Of God Unto Salvation

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Minister Monardo, Nov 6, 2020.

  1. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,765
    United States
    Christian
    Celibate
    John 6:
    39
    This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should
    lose nothing, but should raise it up on the last day.
    40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and
    believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up on the last day.
    44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and
    I will raise him up on the last day.

    When does salvation come?
    Conversion?-no, that is reconciliation.


    Romans 5:10. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the
    death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

    2 Corinthians 5:
    18
    Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ,
    and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

    Baptism?-no, that is crucifixion, [circumcision of Christ].

    Romans 6:3. Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ
    Jesus were baptized into His death?

    Colossians 2:
    11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,
    by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
    12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith
    in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

    Regeneration?-no, being born from above is an absolute necessity for bearing fruit unto righteousness, receiving spiritual gifts and wisdom from above to edify the body of Christ.
    This certainly does not occur automatically at conversion/reconciliation, and we are told a couple of dozen times that if we will continue and abide, we will bear fruit.


    1 John 2:24. Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning.
    If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son
    and in the Father.

    1 Peter 1:
    22
    Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere
    love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,
    23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word
    of God which lives and abides forever.

    Matthew 24:13. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

    Salvation comes at the Resurrection, unless of course,
    you are yet alive at His appearing.


    Luke 21:
    27
    Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because
    your redemption draws near.

    Romans 6:
    4
    Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ
    was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in
    newness of life.
    5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also
    shall be of the resurrection.

    Those who are counted worthy are the children of the Resurrection.

    Luke 20:
    35
    But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from
    the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
    36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are
    children of God, being children of the resurrection.

    Romans 1:4. Declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit
    of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

    Revelation 21:7. Whosoever overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be their God
    and
    they shall be My sons and daughters.

    The Gospel is not an automatic salvation, it is the Power of God
    Unto Salvation,
    ready to be revealed in the last time.

    1 Peter 1:
    3
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.
    5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be
    revealed in the last time.


    Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God
    unto salvation
    to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Do you receive salvation because you believe, or do you receive the Power
    Of God unto salvation? Read carefully, or see what you want to see.


    1 Peter 5:4. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown
    of glory that does not fade away.

    Philippians 3:
    10
    That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of
    His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
    11 If, by any means, I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
    12
    Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on,
    that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
    13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting
    those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
    14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
    15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you
    think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.
    16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,
    let us be of the same mind.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +572
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    Do you also believe Jesus meant what he said in Matthew 25:41-46?

    One can be cast into the lake of fire, thus lose his salvation, if he does not give the hungry food, clothe the naked, visit the sick when they are in jail?
     
  3. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

    +42,227
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    Hello @Minister Monardo, the Lord Jesus told us that we are given "eternal life" from the moment that we come to saving faith and believe, that we will not stand in the Judgment with unbelievers (Great White Throne), and that we have already passed (perfect tense) from death to life .. e.g. John 3:18, 5:24.

    Many say that, "we were saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved", to explain that there is a process involved in our salvation, and while that is certainly true in one sense (justification, sanctification and glorification), I believe that phrase can also a bit misleading, especially since it is most often used by those who believe that what the Lord Jesus did on our behalf during His life here among us, which most certainly includes His death on the Cross, is insufficient to save us to the uttermost, that part of our salvation must be merited by us as well (by the works that 'we' do/by the way that 'we' choose to live as His workmanship).

    I have, for years, believed that we are saved (justified) from the moment that we first believe, and that the fruit of that salvation (broadly, our sanctification and glorification) is the inevitable result (of being given a new heart and a new spirit, the Holy Spirit, the mind of Christ, of His making us alive/of His causing us to be born again, and then saving us as His workmanship/masterpiece, as wholly new creatures in Christ, for/unto good works/holy living, NOT because of these things).

    Where are we the same/where do we differ in all of this?

    Thanks :)

    God bless you!

    --David

    John 3
    18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 5
    24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  4. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +512
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    In Matthew 25:41-46 Jesus is not speaking to Christians. Those on his left are the Goats (reprobate unbelievers), the Bible never says that salvation can be lost.

    Salvation is not something we can attain by obedience or anything else, it's a gift from God.

    In Matthew 7:22-24 we see so called "Christian believers" being cast into the lake of fire. They say Lord Lord, haven't we cast out demons in your name and performed miracles etc. But Jesus tells them that He never knew them.

    We can do all the good works and spend our lives in Church, and still not know Christ in a saving way. So many priests and pastors are going into the lake of fire.
     
  5. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +572
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    Are you interpreting vs 41 and 42 literally there?

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;

    Jesus didn't say departed into hell because they did not receive his gift of salvation.

    He said the reason is that "for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink".

    Unless you are saying Jesus did not mean what he said?
     
  6. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +512
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    Jesus sent the Goats to hell because they are not His Sheep. His Sheep hear His voice but the Goats don't, so even the best work of the Goats is rejected By God as filthy rags.

    His Sheep also committed the same sins, they didn't feed Him or clothe Him but their sins were all paid for on the cross but the Goats will pay for their sins in the lake of fire.
     
  7. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +572
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    I see, so you believe Jesus was actually referring to the cross in that passage.

    thus he is not really saying you need to feed the hungry, clothe the naked etc, otherwise you will be thrown in the lake of fire, in that passage?
     
  8. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +512
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    No, He is saying the Goats didn't feed His Sheep because they don't obey Him. He didn't write their names in His book before He created the universe, so they were never going to obey His gospel because they hate Him.
     
  9. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +572
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    Fascinating, where do you get all these inferences from that passage alone?

    you don’t believe in reading that passage literally there?
     
  10. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,765
    United States
    Christian
    Celibate
    Hello to you, too.
    Let me begin by saying that John 3:18 out of context is only loosely related to John 5:24 out of context. Neither of these verses or their context mention salvation, so we are constructing a definition from
    highlights. Starting with believing of course, since in John 3 in context, judgment begins with man's response to who Jesus Christ is, and those who do not believe are judged already by this clear statement.
    V. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    This stands in stark contrast to many who reject the idea of needing a Savior, as I have been told countless times that they were basically a good person, and should not need to worry about going to hell. Jesus rebukes that notion by saying that they avoid the light because they love the darkness, and their deeds are evil. Note that Truth is described as the Light of the World. Can we go back to chapter 1?
    4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
    Now, to continue from the context of your quote from ch 5:
    John 5:26. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself.

    This life that is in Jesus Christ is the power of God for salvation to all who believe.
    You cannot define 'eternal life from v. 24 as "going to heaven when you die and living forever", because
    that is simply incorrect. The eternal life is referring to the very nature of that life that comes from the Father, through His Son, which He describes a "a life more abundantly" and "a wellspring of life that never runs dry" Isaiah 58:11
    Herein lies the good news, you have access to this life now by believing in the Son.
    Consider the context of chapter 5 further:
    John 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
    Here He is talking about the awakening of the spirit in man that can receive the power of regeneration
    from the Holy Spirit, which "now is" for those who hear his voice. now compare to Vs 28 & 29;
    28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
    29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
    Now we are talking about the resurrection at the end of the age, which proceeds the judgment.
    You seem to think that verse 24, by saying those who hear and live and do not come into judgment
    is referring to the end of the age. This is incorrect. The point of coming to this new life in Christ is that it
    is without judgment.
    Matthew 22:10. So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
    Great News! The gospel is for all, regardless of sins past, because what matters is the work of regeneration by the Spirit. There are no prerequisites, just believe, and you will be saved. This is the rejection from the other end of the spectrum, people who say "oh, I know I am going to hell, nothing
    can save me after what I have done." This rejection is overcome by the very verse you quoted, that
    believing and receiving new life in Christ is "without judgment". Salvation is not avoiding judgment, or
    going to heaven when you die, it is attaining to the fullness of our inheritance in Christ. Not all will.
    This is not "earning salvation", it is receiving a full reward by persistence in well doing.
    2 John 1:8. Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may
    receive a full reward.
    Now, as to defining the attaining to the fulness of our inheritance at the resurrection, and that salvation
    is complete at the Resurrection, I will leave it to you to actually read the over 30 verses with comments
    that are presented in the OP#1, since there seems to be a distinct feeling that you were responding to the title of the thread, without considering the exposition. Furthermore, let me comment on this:
    1. the op says nothing about were saved, being saved, and will be saved, you are introducing it.
    2. You can't admit that it is "true in a sense", then say it is misleading without why. Instead, you say that it is often used by those who speak of works based salvation and adding to the finished work of the cross.
    This is a false statement, someone using a true statement to support a false conclusion doesn't in any
    way negate the fundamental truth that you agree to, or make that statement misleading. What is being
    misleading, the reality of justification, sanctification and glorification? I hope not. Not concerned with
    belief vs works salvation, not the topic, not mentioned in the OP #1, you introduced it, because clearly
    you wanted to argue it. How about you read Post #1, and start fresh with a relevant comment to the topic. Here's where it gets worse.
    What do you think is relevant to saying what you have believed for years? You haven't replied to my post, but you make this statement as if how long you have believed something adds the least amount
    of weight to that belief. What I am hearing is "I have been debating this theological dogmatic belief
    for years, and the very notion of Salvation culminating at the end of the age with the Resurrection
    is an unacceptable notion to consider.
    Colossians 3 :
    3
    For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
    4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
    Herein lies the fulness of our salvation.
    1 Corinthians 15:
    53
    For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality,
    then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

    This all culminates with the return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, at the Resurrection.
     
  11. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +512
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    I have been taught to read and interpret Bible passages according to their context. The whole Bible from Genesis tp Revelation must never ever contradict itself, since it's God's perfect inerrant eternally true Word from cover to cover.
    God has spoken and declared that no saved person shall ever lose his salvation, because God is the One who saves and He never fails in anything He does.

    It sounds to me as though you believe that man saves himself. If man saves himself then he can lose his salvation since he is fallen and has a wicked corrupt heart and everything he does is cursed by sin.

    Jesus would never save someone, and then betray them and cast them into the lake of fire. This is what Satan does, he is a liar and murderer and not Jesus as some believe. Those who believe that Jesus can betray them don't have true saving faith.
     
  12. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +572
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    So to conclude, what you are saying is that you believe Jesus must not have meant what he said literally there right?

    He needs us, believers in the 21st century, to explain to readers what he really meant in that passage?
     
  13. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +512
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    He did mean it literally, but our point of contention is with who those people were that said "Lord Lord, haven't we done this and that.
    You seem to believe they were Christians, who lost their salvation. If that is true then Jesus is a liar, because He said that "nobody would snatch them out of His hand".

    So, either Jesus is a liar or you took the verse out of it's context.
     
  14. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,765
    United States
    Christian
    Celibate
    Not Christians, people claimed to be, doing and saying things "in His name". Matthew 24
    1 Corinthians 11:19. For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.
    1 John 2:
    18
    Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
    19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

    Revelation 2:2. I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those
    who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have
    found them liars.
     
  15. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +572
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    Our discussion was based on whether Jesus meant what he said there.

    so if your answer is yes, he meant what he said, then you cannot avoid the conclusion that they will go to the lake of fire because of lack of those works.

    but are you relying on the common view that, these people were never saved in the first place? Thus Jesus was justified in sending them to the lake of fire.

    whether or not they fed the hungry is thus irrelevant?
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2020
  16. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +512
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    Yes, those people were never saved. Salvation has nothing to do with how good or bad we are, heaven will have millions of murderers, rapists, thieves and every other kind of sinner.

    God said that a murderer and adulterer, was a man after His own heart. He never described any other good clean living religious man, in those terms but He described David a murderer and adulterer in those terms. So we see that God loves murderers and adulterers and every other kind of sinner.

    You have added and applied a false religious doctrine, to the words of Christ. He wasn't saying those who didn't feed Him are going to the lake of fire for those sins, they didn't feed Him because they were His enemies. Why would they feed their enemy, it makes no sense.
     
  17. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +572
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    But that is what vs 41 and v 42 literally said

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:

    42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;

    You understand the usage of the connecting word "for" right?
     
  18. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

    +1,070
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Scripture says the following regarding salvation. There is a past aspect, a present aspect and a future aspect to our salvation.

    Past
    Ephesians 2:8-9
    For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. cf Acts 15:11; Ephesians 2:5

    Present
    1 Corinthians 1:18
    For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. cf Acts 2:47; 2 Corinthians 2:15

    Future
    Romans 5:9
    having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

    hope this helps!!!
     
  19. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +512
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    That only helps if the man centered gospel isn't added and applied to Christs gospel.
     
  20. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

    +1,070
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I'm just posting the scriptures about the OP without doctrine on the subject. There is a past, present and future aspect to salvation.
     
Loading...