PostModern Iconography - Fr. Stamatis Skliris

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ikonographics

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Look, while everyone here may have made personal judgments of taste regarding the icons, Nutroll and Michael's (two professional iconographers) are primarily making the point that there are certain aspects that break away from traditional iconography. Even the iconographer in question proudly admits that. They are not accusing him of something that he himself does not already advertise. They are, as a consequence, expressing concern as it does not fit in with any past tradition. At the very least one has to admit that it is a valid concern.

This isn't about who's iconography is prettier. There is iconography out there that is inline with Church teaching that would be, by most eyes, considered awkward and not very pretty. But it is much better to have that than a beatiful piece of art that breaks away from iconographic Tradition/tradition. Now, if you would like to continue questioing the importance of following this tradition/breaking away from it, that makes sense. You've got a bishop and a priest on your side so you can't be accused of being totally off in left field for arguing the less conservative POV in this case. But Nutroll and Michael can't be blamed for being a bit dismayed at seeing a bishop and a priest doing things in iconography that for them was always expressly forbidden. It would seem a bit mad on their parts to accept it hook line and sinker because some holy men said it was okay.

By the way, i can personally attest to the quality of Michael's work as I have bought an original from him and a copy of that original. I pray before it every night and my stuffy too-conservative priest liked it too. But... what does that really have to do with this thread?

Xpy

I too am an iconographer and am doing my PhD in Theology, and have done talks on the meaning of icons.
 
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Xpycoctomos

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Fr Stamatis Skliris is more aware than anyone of the difference between "iconography" and "artwork". Those who do not live in an Orthodox country and Orthodox culture, are judging him by the wrong standards. In Greece Orthodoxy is a way of life, part of the very fabric of life and it infiltrates into every part of life, including art and music which is not necessarily "ecclesiastical". This is something that someone from the West where Orthodoxy is a "transplant", simply cannot understand.

I'm not judging him. In fact in my post I said that I should probably ask him to separate the two or give me the explanation as to why that is not important to do. Asking such necessarily implies that I know that he knows the difference.

I know I am an inferior western Orthodox who shall submit to any practice found in an Orthodox country: denying to Eucharist to followers on Pascha, burning a Judas every year to express our deep seeded belief in a forgiving God who calls us not to hate or kill, keeping dreadfully silent on issues of abortion and rampant use of abortafacient contraceptions, and the list goes on. My point is that while the US has more to learn about Orthodoxy than Orthodox Countries do, Orthodox Countries do not get a carte blanche whereas to suggest that anythign they do is holy and automatically truly Orthodox. Just as I hate the "ethnicity is bad and a crutch in churches" routine, I also equally despise the "shut up you american, you know nothing about Orthodoxy... the greek over there knows much more... because it is woven into his daily life" routine.

We have a good amount to learn from each other, on both sides of the cultural divide.

however, what is interesting here is that it is not the stupid westerners who are making innovations. if we were to do these innovations, no one would have much problem with the criticism. People would say "they should listen to the tradition that brought them Orthodoxy". But if people within that tradition attempt to change it, then it's fine.

Basically the message I get is that we americans have to remain true to our heritage... unless our heritage wants to change.

I have no problem with the first part, the second is what bothers me.

Seriously, i have NO problem if you like the iconography and if you buy it for yourself DESPITE what some bishops and iconographers might say. I am not going to tell you that you should obey them because they are clergy. But I think people are making some valid and precise points. Sorry if we don't agree with every word of the bishop. He's not the Gospel itself and this disagreement gives me no reason to feel I am disrespecting him in anyway. I am sure he is a much holier man than I... I really mean that and i am not saying that out of fake humility... really.

Xpy
 
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Xpycoctomos

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I too am an iconographer and am doing my PhD in Theology, and have done talks on the meaning of icons.

That's great. I wish I knew that. It doesn't change my opinion at all, but it makes me want to listen more to what you have to say.

i never assume anyone is an iconographer, anymore than I assum they are a trained linguist or fluent in Aramaic.

So, seeing as you are trained, can you offer your thoughts on expression in icons and where and if that appears in past traditions of iconography? it's not a trick question, but I would rwally like to hear your thoughts.


Xpy
 
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ikonographics

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Pantocrator01.jpg


My kind of Iconography.

Agreed. The irony, though, is that this style of iconography was directly influenced by the "worldly aesthetics" of hellenistic art - the Fayum death masks.
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Arts/Painting/Fajum1.jpg
 
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Rindicella

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I am not an expert in iconography and the truth is I really don't care for Fr. S's style at all. Having said that, I must also say that I have met him and I know Bishop Maxim personally, as I sometimes visit the cathedral in Alhambra and I have had a chance to sit with him and get to know him.

This thread is about the iconography itself, and I would hope that there are none here that are feeling / thinking that these men are somehow "heretics". That's a pretty serious charge, and I can attest to the fact that both men are very committed Orthodox Christians. Bishop Maxim is young, and he is not perfect, like none of us are perfect. His relative youth has injected a great deal of energy and enthusiasm in a diocese that was literally, suffocating. (His predecessor was Bishop Longin who did not have time to devote to the diocese, as he was simply the administrator until they found someone...prior to that, it was Bishop Jovan of Serbia, a very elderly bishop who has returned to Serbia.)

Bishop Maxim is devoted to revitalizing the youth of the Church and to reaching their hearts.

I realize that this is a different topic than the subject whether this iconography is correct or not. But I think it is important to say it, in order to give a fuller picture of what is going on with it, why it is being used.

As I said, I don't particularly care for it. But I have seen the young people take more of an interest because of it. Does that make it "okay"? Probably not.....but I am not a Bishop and I have to trust that our Bishops know what they're doing, in the end....

Thank you to the iconographers in this thread for the education, especially juliaofgreece..much appreciated!~
 
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ikonographics

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So? I still prefer it to new age Iconography. I'm not saying the new age is garbage, but I prefer the old style.

I agree completely. :) It's just that some people seem to think that iconography is something completely cut off from "worldly artistic expression" and the icon you provided (my favorite, by the way:)) is a perfect example of how that is not true. Iconography has its roots in (gasp!) hellenistic art and has gone through many renaissances and influences from "secular art" before "Western art" as we know it even existed.
 
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Michael G

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I realize that this is a different topic than the subject whether this iconography is correct or not. But I think it is important to say it, in order to give a fuller picture of what is going on with it, why it is being used.

Iconography is not a socio-political tool that is meant to elicit an emotional response.
 
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JuvenalyMartinka

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I am not an expert in iconography and the truth is I really don't care for Fr. S's style at all. Having said that, I must also say that I have met him and I know Bishop Maxim personally, as I sometimes visit the cathedral in Alhambra and I have had a chance to sit with him and get to know him.

This thread is about the iconography itself, and I would hope that there are none here that are feeling / thinking that these men are somehow "heretics". That's a pretty serious charge, and I can attest to the fact that both men are very committed Orthodox Christians. Bishop Maxim is young, and he is not perfect, like none of us are perfect. His relative youth has injected a great deal of energy and enthusiasm in a diocese that was literally, suffocating. (His predecessor was Bishop Longin who did not have time to devote to the diocese, as he was simply the administrator until they found someone...prior to that, it was Bishop Jovan of Serbia, a very elderly bishop who has returned to Serbia.)

Bishop Maxim is devoted to revitalizing the youth of the Church and to reaching their hearts.

I realize that this is a different topic than the subject whether this iconography is correct or not. But I think it is important to say it, in order to give a fuller picture of what is going on with it, why it is being used.

As I said, I don't particularly care for it. But I have seen the young people take more of an interest because of it. Does that make it "okay"? Probably not.....but I am not a Bishop and I have to trust that our Bishops know what they're doing, in the end....

Thank you to the iconographers in this thread for the education, especially juliaofgreece..much appreciated!~

Thank you very much for this post, although I have not met the bishop (yet) or this priest, the bottom line is that if you have a problem with something, saying things against a priest or bishop is still wrong. It still breaks canons and it is something you would need to confess to your priest.

The point of my post was to offer a solution that would educate the entire group. Talk to the bishop. Talk to Father. Ask your questions. Raise your issues. But in the end get it off of the forum and out in the open. That is what we tell inquirers.. "You can't learn from an internet forum about Orthodoxy." The same goes for iconography. In order to understand t one must life a life that allows themselves to experience the fundamentals of which, for Iconography is a life of Orthodoxy.

I am finished writing in this thread until someone (again, preferably one of our resident iconographers) actually takes the time that they have used posting attacks on this forum and calls the bishop and talks to him about this and then reports it back here.

In Christ,
Juvenaly
 
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ikonographics

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That's great. I wish I knew that. It doesn't change my opinion at all, but it makes me want to listen more to what you have to say.

i never assume anyone is an iconographer, anymore than I assum they are a trained linguist or fluent in Aramaic.

So, seeing as you are trained, can you offer your thoughts on expression in icons and where and if that appears in past traditions of iconography? it's not a trick question, but I would rwally like to hear your thoughts.


Xpy

[Just by the way, before I'm accused of judging converts, and having a biased point of view, I'm not Greek, I was born in South Africa, my family converted when I was a child, I was brought up in the Russian (OCA!) tradition in a parish that had an American,then a Romanian priest, I've been living/studying/working in Greece for 11 years and sing in the choir at the Russian Church!]

Expression in icons is most certainly not something new in iconography. It was particularly common in the Macedonian school of iconography.This was the "golden age" of Byzantine iconography.


The Macedonian School

The Macedonian School had its centre in Thessaloniki and flourished in the 13th and 14th centuries. Its hallmarks are realism in the depiction of the figures, not only in their external features but also in the rendering of their inner world, particularly their pathos. The compositions are crowded, with all the figures moving in the space, which is extensive and rendered in striking depth.
St Theodore Stratelates, Karyes, Protaton. Fresco by Manuel Panselinos, 14th c.

Painters from Thessaloniki were invited to paint Athonite foundations, and they frescoed the Protaton, the katholika of the Great Lavra, Vatopedi, Chelandari, and Pantokrator, and the refectory and cemetery church of Pantokrator. There were many famous ateliers of the Macedonian School, but head and shoulders above the rest stood the atelier of Manuel Panselinos.
Sts Merkourios and Arsenios, Karyes, Protaton. Fresco by Manuel Panselinos, 14th c.

All our information about Panselinos come from the Painter’s Manual, which was written in the early 18th century by an ordained monk and painter named Dionysios, a native of Fourna in Evrytania who lived on Mount Athos in the first half of the 18th century. Dionysios attributed to Manuel Panselinos the frescoes in the Protaton at Karyes, in the outer narthex of the katholikon of Vatopedi, and in the katholika of Pantokrator and the Great Lavra, and a large number of portable icons in monasteries on Mount Athos and elsewhere.
The Presentation of the Virgin, Karyes, Protaton. Fresco by Manuel Panselinos, 14th c.
Scientific research has shown a number of paintings on Athos to be genuine works of Manuel Panselinos: the frescoes in the Protaton and the outer narthex of the katholikon of Vatopedi, a head of St Nicholas in the katholikon of the Great Lavra (the rest of the composition has been retouched), a portable icon of St Demetrios in the Great Lavra, and two icons of St Demetrios and St George in Vatopedi. Works of his have been located in monuments in Thessaloniki and other cities in Macedonia. Manuel’s frescoes are distinctive for their luminous colours, the consummate rendering of the figures, their welling spirituality, and the grandeur of the compositions.
Apart from Manuel Panselinos’s paintings, works of the Macedonian School may also be admired in Chelandari Monastery, where the entire katholikon was frescoed by the renowned atelier of Michael Astrapas and Eutychios.
The characteristics of the Macedonian School remained apparent in all the frescoes and portable icons on Mount Athos until the beginning of the 16th century, when there was a gradual decline in the quality of the painting. Examples include the frescoes in the Chapel of St John the Baptist in the Protaton, which were painted in 1526.



As I have mentioned, I am certainly not the biggest fan of Fr Stamatis choice in colour, but the THEOLOGY of his icons is perfectly ORTHODOX. Unfortunately, I don't have time to go into more depth at this moment as I must be off to vespers!



There is a very good article about it the Theological Basis of Fr Stamatis Skliris Icons, which unfortunately is only in Greek and also a article in English by Fr Stamatis on The Person of Christ and the Style of Icons



God bless!
 
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Xpycoctomos

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I am not an expert in iconography and the truth is I really don't care for Fr. S's style at all. Having said that, I must also say that I have met him and I know Bishop Maxim personally, as I sometimes visit the cathedral in Alhambra and I have had a chance to sit with him and get to know him.

This thread is about the iconography itself, and I would hope that there are none here that are feeling / thinking that these men are somehow "heretics". That's a pretty serious charge, and I can attest to the fact that both men are very committed Orthodox Christians. Bishop Maxim is young, and he is not perfect, like none of us are perfect. His relative youth has injected a great deal of energy and enthusiasm in a diocese that was literally, suffocating. (His predecessor was Bishop Longin who did not have time to devote to the diocese, as he was simply the administrator until they found someone...prior to that, it was Bishop Jovan of Serbia, a very elderly bishop who has returned to Serbia.)

Bishop Maxim is devoted to revitalizing the youth of the Church and to reaching their hearts.

I realize that this is a different topic than the subject whether this iconography is correct or not. But I think it is important to say it, in order to give a fuller picture of what is going on with it, why it is being used.

As I said, I don't particularly care for it. But I have seen the young people take more of an interest because of it. Does that make it "okay"? Probably not.....but I am not a Bishop and I have to trust that our Bishops know what they're doing, in the end....

Thank you to the iconographers in this thread for the education, especially juliaofgreece..much appreciated!~
Thanks for the insight. I hope I made it clear that i was judging either of these men, especially the bishop. And I didn't get the idea that anyone else was. I know you weren't accusing anyone, but I just wanted to clarify since it was brought up... at least for myself.

Just piggy backing on what you were saying, bishops ahve to make so many decisions, difficult decisions and they have to consider several angles at the same time. Unfortuanately it is very difficult to make decisions that everyone is comfortable with or happy with. And, sometimes, bishops will make mistakes. I am not saying that this was definitely a mistake of Bishop MAXIM. I don't know. But I don't feel confident that it was a good move. All I know for sure is that I am not a bishop and there are MANY reasons for that. That doesn't mean I can't call into question the decision of a bishop, but I shouldn't assume that I would do any better a job. In fact I am 100% confident that I would do a worse job than even the most controversial bishop there may be int he Church.

Xpy
 
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Rindicella

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Thanks for the insight. I hope I made it clear that i was judging either of these men, especially the bishop. And I didn't get the idea that anyone else was. I know you weren't accusing anyone, but I just wanted to clarify since it was brought up... at least for myself.

Just piggy backing on what you were saying, bishops ahve to make so many decisions, difficult decisions and they have to consider several angles at the same time. Unfortuanately it is very difficult to make decisions that everyone is comfortable with or happy with. And, sometimes, bishops will make mistakes. I am not saying that this was definitely a mistake of Bishop MAXIM. I don't know. But I don't feel confident that it was a good move. All I know for sure is that I am not a bishop and there are MANY reasons for that. That doesn't mean I can't call into question the decision of a bishop, but I shouldn't assume that I would do any better a job. In fact I am 100% confident that I would do a worse job than even the most controversial bishop there may be int he Church.

Xpy

God bless you and I wasn not calling anyone "out" in particular....I just wanted to give that insight is all. I agree that this comes down to prayerful and thoughtful decisions ....as I said, I don't really care for the style, but I just wanted to say that I believe that we should approach these things and the people involved, with maybe a little less suspicion in our hearts. If we approach everything with utmost suspicion that tends to color our faith in a way that is unpleasing....that's all i'm trying to express.
God bless.
 
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MariaRegina

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If you go to the Western Diocesan website for the Serbian Church, you will see that there is a new prayerbook offered for sale which incorporates Father's artwork and iconography. The new prayerbook has brilliant colors which appeal to both youth and Hawaiians. If you take time to look, you will see that Father's artwork does seem very Hawaiian. In the introduction to the prayer book, it mentions that it is designed for converts. I do own a copy of this prayerbook, and it is tastefully done with many pictures of fish, rubber trees, and icons (no bosoms are displayed).

Please realize that Bishop MAXIM is working with various Orthodox hierarchs to establish a pan-Orthodox presence in Hawaii -- one that involves Greeks, Russians, Serbians, and other ethnicities, particularly the Hawaiians themselves.

Incidentally, there is a schismatic group of "Orthodox Catholics" in Hawaii and in the Philippines that poses a serious problem because of the confusion they create in people's minds. This group was mentioned in a previous thread and the good bishop would like to know who they are. Pray for him and the other Orthodox hierarchs that they may be able to convert that group to Orthodoxy through God's grace and our prayers.
 
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nutroll

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I can't believe how ridiculous this thread has gotten. I never insinuated that there was a singular acceptable style of iconography, as a matter of fact, I mentioned that there is room for development of new styles. In point of fact, I have argued on this forum and elsewhere that iconography must be a living tradition, and not a stagnant repeat of what has gone before.

I simply put forward that there must be a line between what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. I am quite familiar with the Macedonian School, as well as the Cretan schools that followed. I have a great appreciation for much of the development that occured within these schools of iconography. That said, there were a great many things done in these schools that crossed a line. It often moved into all out sensuality and glorification of the human form. It borrowed very heavily from the Venetians in style and in content. And yet, I don't recall seeing big smiles, or Jesus with bright blue eyes. We can all disagree on where these boundaries ought to be drawn in terms of what is and what is not appropriate, but I find much of what has been written here insulting.

I don't appreciate being accused of convertitis, especially since I was raised Orthodox, and could really have only gotten that if it is contagious. I don't consider myself ignorant about iconography, given that it has been my life for the last 17 years. I have sacrificed much in my personal life to serve God through iconography. And, perhaps more than anything, I resent the implication that we should keep our mouths shut about this unless we are speaking directly to the priest or the bishop involved. I have never suggested that this is heresy, that this priest should be disciplined, or that the bishop involved is negligent. I simply expressed my disappointment that this style is being given a platform when I find it to be dubious at best.

When someone comes to this forum asking what anyone thinks about this work, what should we do? Should I just say that it's all good because a priest and a bishop are involved, or should I give an opinion that is founded on my study, and my experience of iconography, and my lifetime spent in the Orthodox Church?

There is no shortage of theological opinion thrown around this place, I don't know why such vitriol should come about as a result of the theological opinion expressed by myself and Michael. Anyone that disagrees is free to express their opposing opinion, and perhaps their opinion will prevail over our own, but I feel saddened by the reaction of some people here. Again, I disagree with the style and the content for aesthetic and theological reasons, and it concerns me that a bishop in my own archdiocese would be promoting it. Perhaps I should take it up with the bishop directly, and perhaps I will, but I don't intend to stay silent when someone asks whether it is appropriate or not.

I am sorry if I have offended anyone, but I feel that it is important to speak the truth as I have been taught it. If I am wrong, I am happy to accept correction in the matter, but if it could be done in a less accusatory way, I would greatly appreciate it.
 
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ikonographics

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I can't believe how ridiculous this thread has gotten. I never insinuated that there was a singular acceptable style of iconography, as a matter of fact, I mentioned that there is room for development of new styles. In point of fact, I have argued on this forum and elsewhere that iconography must be a living tradition, and not a stagnant repeat of what has gone before.

I simply put forward that there must be a line between what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. I am quite familiar with the Macedonian School, as well as the Cretan schools that followed. I have a great appreciation for much of the development that occured within these schools of iconography. That said, there were a great many things done in these schools that crossed a line. It often moved into all out sensuality and glorification of the human form. It borrowed very heavily from the Venetians in style and in content. And yet, I don't recall seeing big smiles, or Jesus with bright blue eyes. We can all disagree on where these boundaries ought to be drawn in terms of what is and what is not appropriate, but I find much of what has been written here insulting.

I don't appreciate being accused of convertitis, especially since I was raised Orthodox, and could really have only gotten that if it is contagious. I don't consider myself ignorant about iconography, given that it has been my life for the last 17 years. I have sacrificed much in my personal life to serve God through iconography. And, perhaps more than anything, I resent the implication that we should keep our mouths shut about this unless we are speaking directly to the priest or the bishop involved. I have never suggested that this is heresy, that this priest should be disciplined, or that the bishop involved is negligent. I simply expressed my disappointment that this style is being given a platform when I find it to be dubious at best.

When someone comes to this forum asking what anyone thinks about this work, what should we do? Should I just say that it's all good because a priest and a bishop are involved, or should I give an opinion that is founded on my study, and my experience of iconography, and my lifetime spent in the Orthodox Church?

There is no shortage of theological opinion thrown around this place, I don't know why such vitriol should come about as a result of the theological opinion expressed by myself and Michael. Anyone that disagrees is free to express their opposing opinion, and perhaps their opinion will prevail over our own, but I feel saddened by the reaction of some people here. Again, I disagree with the style and the content for aesthetic and theological reasons, and it concerns me that a bishop in my own archdiocese would be promoting it. Perhaps I should take it up with the bishop directly, and perhaps I will, but I don't intend to stay silent when someone asks whether it is appropriate or not.

I am sorry if I have offended anyone, but I feel that it is important to speak the truth as I have been taught it. If I am wrong, I am happy to accept correction in the matter, but if it could be done in a less accusatory way, I would greatly appreciate it.

I'm not accusing you of convertitis - I said the general attitude of posts smack of it. Forgive me if I have offended you.
 
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