PostModern Iconography - Fr. Stamatis Skliris

Status
Not open for further replies.

Greg the byzantine

have mercy on me
Supporter
Jan 21, 2005
9,377
467
35
✟56,796.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
As Iconography it's not so great.

I really enjoy it as art though, there are a number of secular artists especially in Greece and Cyprus who were influenced by Byzantine Iconography. I really don't think anybody has to worry about this style taking over.
 
Upvote 0

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,258
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
His Grace Bishop Maxim was the guest keynote speaker at the Parish Life Conference for the Antiochian Archdiocese of the West, and during his presentations there was a slideshow with iconography by Fr. Stamatis Skliris. His iconography attempts to blend the Byzantine and Aesthetic with bright colors, different expressions, etc. I was wondering if anyone else was familiar with Fr. Stamatis and had any opinions on his work. He also has a book "In the Mirror" which is a combination of articles he has written, and a plethora of his work. Some of his stuff can be seen on his website: www stamatis-skliris com

I just bought a prayer book compiled by Bishop MAXIM using the iconography from Father Skliris. It is kind of tropical. Makes me feel like I am in Hawaii, paradise, or a tropical island.

I think Bishop MAXIM is trying to reach out to the Hawaiians. Since he is working with a Serbian Mission Parish to help establish Orthodoxy on Hawaii, his website and his new prayer book have an Hawaiian motif captured by Father Skliris in his artwork.

Hawaii is like paradise...
Currently there are three churches there: two in Honolulu -- Greek and ROCOR and then one on the Big Island at Kona - St. Juvenaly (OCA).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Michael G

Abe Frohmann
Feb 22, 2004
33,441
11,984
50
Six-burgh, Pa
Visit site
✟95,591.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I just bought a prayer book compiled by Bishop MAXIM using the iconography from Father Skliris. It is kind of tropical. Makes me feel like I am in Hawaii, paradise, or a tropical island.

I think Bishop MAXIM is trying to reach out to the Hawaiians. Since he is working with a Serbian Mission Parish to help establish Orthodoxy on Hawaii, his website and his new prayer book have an Hawaiian motif captured by Father Skliris in his artwork.

Hawaii is like paradise...
Currently there are three churches there: two in Honolulu -- Greek and ROCOR and then one on the Big Island at Kona - St. Juvenaly (OCA).

:scratch: What you are saying IN NO WAY justifies the abuse of iconographic canons that this priest has done.
 
Upvote 0

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,258
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Most of the pictures in the prayer book are not icons .... just decorations.

Beautiful decorations that cause one to marvel about God's Creation.

God reveals Himself through His creation.

Father's artwork is just that -- artistical depictions of paradise

His icons have the look of ancient Antiochian icons that can be seen at the schools in Lebanon. I have an old calendar icon with prints from Antiochian icons that look very similar in style to what Father is drawing/writing. It is important that we do not overreact and judge Father, after all he is a Priest.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,682
8,018
PA
Visit site
✟1,013,227.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I don't know all the canons about iconography...but it doesn't sit right with me. Not to say that there aren't different schools of iconography....but even the difference between Byzantine and the Russian schools of iconography don't go to such drastic differences...they all follow the same underlying guidelines, right?
 
Upvote 0

Xpycoctomos

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2004
10,133
679
45
Midwest
✟13,419.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps what bothers me first is that there is no clear distinction made on his website between art and iconography. It saddens me in the secular world when our iconography is viewed simply as art. And, I cringe a little bit everytime someone says to "paint" an icon... not becuase THEY offended me or I think they are ignorant, but only because I think it is important to use "write" so that we constantly pay witness to others as to what icons really are meant to do: deliver precise messages to the onlooker. It is not about emotion first and foremost, but doctrine and dogma and tenants of the Faith. It is no more art than a theological essay by St basil or the Gospel of John is art.

I had a professor who studied russian history. The best I could gather is that he is a lapsed Catholic who neither professes to follow the Faith handed down to him or reject it. I went into his office one day to ask him a question and it smelled like a Church in there. It gave me a bit of an emotional reaction and then I saw why it smelled that way. He had very old and ancient icons from Slavic countries he had collected hanging all over. I was taken back and immediately began to ask him about them. It soon became apparent that these were, to him, pieces of art. he appreciated them alright and thought htey were beautiful, but he didn't appreciate them for their true purpose. It made me sad becuase he "owned" these holy objects that were created to be kissed and prayed before and to teach... instead they were just hanging in his office like a obscure picasso hangs in our Art teacher's office. That's almost tragic. Hopefully he comes to Christ through them.

But I digress. My point is that this artist SEEMS (according to his website) to treat iconography as a type of art... a holy art, so to speak. Holy art is great. I love El Greco's stuff and it is sometimes very spiritually nourishing to contemplate some of his works depicting Christ on the Cross and such. But it's wholly different than iconography and it SEEMS that this man at the very least blurs that clear line that should exist to delineate religious art from "windows to heaven".

Xpy
 
  • Like
Reactions: Vasileios
Upvote 0

angrylittlefisherman

the worst of sinners
Jun 22, 2008
524
57
occidental ca
✟15,926.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
As far as Iconography is concerned, I cannot accept this and I do not think that my parish or priests ever will...ever. As far as art is concerned, I have to say that while, his use of colors is interesting and even appealing, I would call it imaginative maybe, it has been done before by other artists, and in fact done much better too. Now my real problem with this art form, which sort of rejects conventional structure, like realistic uses of color, in this case anyways, and other similar styles really are rooted in post-modernism, which is much better said as nihilism. So while I find the artwork that developed from the Bohemian movement interesting, I cannot love it all that much because it is a symptom of an extremely destructive philosophy of life. And it would appear that it has even found its its way into the Church. This saddens me. I have to say that I am torn about the kind of artwork that is produced from this philosophy because on one hand, it is intriguing, it can be beautiful (if you find surreal images to be beautiful) but on the other hand, it is still a symptom of a poisonous destructive philosophy that can never be married into the Christian life.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JuvenalyMartinka

Chrismated: 11.04.07
Sep 6, 2004
280
35
42
Fresno, CA
✟603.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
And yet again, we Americans think we know Orthodoxy because we read it out of a book. Amazing, simply amazing. Lay people who get on internet fora and bash a bishop and a priest. None of these posts would be made if you were talking to the bishop himself, nor to the priest.

Isn't it nice to know that online we have a certain amount of "freedom" even when that freedom breaks the same canons that are apparently so carefully memorized and understood by the people who posted them in these threads?

If these things bother you so much, why not do the right thing and call the bishop himself or email him your concerns. If you can speak so openly about the things you find wrong why not tell this to him directly rather than slandering him on the internet where nothing can be accomplished?

Here, for those that are actually interested in doing the right thing and dealing with this in the way that the canons actually say to do so (not to mention the Holy Scriptures), here is the contact info for the Bishop. I am sure if there were messages left for him he would take them into consideration, and who knows, some of you may get the honor and privelege, (especially our resident iconographers and iconography experts) to talk about it with him.

WestDiocese@earthlink.net (email)

I would be very interested in the responses anyone might get.

In Christ,
Juvenaly
 
Upvote 0

ikonographics

In patience I waited patiently on the Lord
Apr 27, 2008
2,530
497
Greece
Visit site
✟27,987.00
Country
Greece
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
And yet again, we Americans think we know Orthodoxy because we read it out of a book. Amazing, simply amazing. Lay people who get on internet fora and bash a bishop and a priest. None of these posts would be made if you were talking to the bishop himself, nor to the priest.

Isn't it nice to know that online we have a certain amount of "freedom" even when that freedom breaks the same canons that are apparently so carefully memorized and understood by the people who posted them in these threads?

If these things bother you so much, why not do the right thing and call the bishop himself or email him your concerns. If you can speak so openly about the things you find wrong why not tell this to him directly rather than slandering him on the internet where nothing can be accomplished?

Here, for those that are actually interested in doing the right thing and dealing with this in the way that the canons actually say to do so (not to mention the Holy Scriptures), here is the contact info for the Bishop. I am sure if there were messages left for him he would take them into consideration, and who knows, some of you may get the honor and privelege, (especially our resident iconographers and iconography experts) to talk about it with him.

WestDiocese@earthlink.net (email)

I would be very interested in the responses anyone might get.

In Christ,
Juvenaly

Thank you!:thumbsup: I'm horrified by the "super-correct convertitis" displayed in this thread. Fr Stamatis Skliris is not only an iconographer, but also a priest, theologian and renowned spiritual father, not only in Greece but also in Serbia.
While the style if his icons is not to my personal taste (I certainly appreciate his artwork) there is nothing theologically wrong with them.
Byzantine iconography, as my professor of Byzantine Art and Archeology said, went through many renaissances before The Renaissance was ever dreamed of. There has NEVER been a fixed style of Orthodox iconography. The Byzantines were probably just as horrified by the way the Russians "broke the canons" of iconography. It is only after the recent return to "traditional" iconography after centuries of captivity to Western art that contemporary iconographers have become obsessed with making exact copies of old icons. Fortunately there are the likes of Fr Stamatis Skliris, Gregory Kroug, George Kordis and others who have the guts to break that mold while remaining true to the spirit and theology of the Orthodox icon.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ikonographics

In patience I waited patiently on the Lord
Apr 27, 2008
2,530
497
Greece
Visit site
✟27,987.00
Country
Greece
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

Michael G

Abe Frohmann
Feb 22, 2004
33,441
11,984
50
Six-burgh, Pa
Visit site
✟95,591.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Thank you!:thumbsup: I'm horrified by the "super-correct convertitis" displayed in this thread. Fr Stamatis Skliris is not only an iconographer, but also a priest, theologian and renowned spiritual father, not only in Greece but also in Serbia.
While the style if his icons is not to my personal taste (I certainly appreciate his artwork) there is nothing theologically wrong with them.
Byzantine iconography, as my professor of Byzantine Art and Archeology said, went through many renaissances before The Renaissance was ever dreamed of. There has NEVER been a fixed style of Orthodox iconography. The Byzantines were probably just as horrified by the way the Russians "broke the canons" of iconography. It is only after the recent return to "traditional" iconography after centuries of captivity to Western art that contemporary iconographers have become obsessed with making exact copies of old icons. Fortunately there are the likes of Fr Stamatis Skliris, Gregory Kroug, George Kordis and others who have the guts to break that mold while remaining true to the spirit and theology of the Orthodox icon.


So it is theologically acceptable for their to be facial expressions in icons and for icons to be painted that clearly show off a womans busom? That is news to me.
 
Upvote 0

Michael G

Abe Frohmann
Feb 22, 2004
33,441
11,984
50
Six-burgh, Pa
Visit site
✟95,591.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
And yet again, we Americans think we know Orthodoxy because we read it out of a book. Amazing, simply amazing. Lay people who get on internet fora and bash a bishop and a priest. None of these posts would be made if you were talking to the bishop himself, nor to the priest.

Isn't it nice to know that online we have a certain amount of "freedom" even when that freedom breaks the same canons that are apparently so carefully memorized and understood by the people who posted them in these threads?

If these things bother you so much, why not do the right thing and call the bishop himself or email him your concerns. If you can speak so openly about the things you find wrong why not tell this to him directly rather than slandering him on the internet where nothing can be accomplished?

Here, for those that are actually interested in doing the right thing and dealing with this in the way that the canons actually say to do so (not to mention the Holy Scriptures), here is the contact info for the Bishop. I am sure if there were messages left for him he would take them into consideration, and who knows, some of you may get the honor and privelege, (especially our resident iconographers and iconography experts) to talk about it with him.

WestDiocese@earthlink.net (email)

I would be very interested in the responses anyone might get.

In Christ,
Juvenaly

Last I checked, I am not your average lay person and have been studying this matter for a dozen years. I think I know just a little bit about iconography. And I know Nutroll knows quite a bit about iconography as well.
 
Upvote 0

Michael G

Abe Frohmann
Feb 22, 2004
33,441
11,984
50
Six-burgh, Pa
Visit site
✟95,591.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Most of the pictures in the prayer book are not icons .... just decorations.

Beautiful decorations that cause one to marvel about God's Creation.

God reveals Himself through His creation.

Father's artwork is just that -- artistical depictions of paradise

His icons have the look of ancient Antiochian icons that can be seen at the schools in Lebanon. I have an old calendar icon with prints from Antiochian icons that look very similar in style to what Father is drawing/writing. It is important that we do not overreact and judge Father, after all he is a Priest.


Then he needs to state what is an icon and what is art in his book and on his site and not obscure the line between icon and art.
 
Upvote 0

Michael G

Abe Frohmann
Feb 22, 2004
33,441
11,984
50
Six-burgh, Pa
Visit site
✟95,591.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Thank you!:thumbsup: I'm horrified by the "super-correct convertitis" displayed in this thread. Fr Stamatis Skliris is not only an iconographer, but also a priest, theologian and renowned spiritual father, not only in Greece but also in Serbia.
While the style if his icons is not to my personal taste (I certainly appreciate his artwork) there is nothing theologically wrong with them.
Byzantine iconography, as my professor of Byzantine Art and Archeology said, went through many renaissances before The Renaissance was ever dreamed of. There has NEVER been a fixed style of Orthodox iconography. The Byzantines were probably just as horrified by the way the Russians "broke the canons" of iconography. It is only after the recent return to "traditional" iconography after centuries of captivity to Western art that contemporary iconographers have become obsessed with making exact copies of old icons. Fortunately there are the likes of Fr Stamatis Skliris, Gregory Kroug, George Kordis and others who have the guts to break that mold while remaining true to the spirit and theology of the Orthodox icon.


Please do not equate Fr. Stamatis Skliris with Gregory Kroug! Gregory Kroug and Leonid Ouspensky as well are very skilled iconographers, and while their work is just a tad primitive, they are exceptional artists and understand iconography very well. They show work in a very primitive style, similar to ancient Novgorod icons. This mans work attempts to turn iconography into expressionist art and introduces a sensuality into iconography that is not meant to be in iconography in the first place.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Xpycoctomos

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2004
10,133
679
45
Midwest
✟13,419.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
So how does the Holy Synod of CF believers vote on this matter ...:doh:

heresy

no heresy

none of our business

While I do appreciate your humor and candor, I think that most of us here are trying to express concerns (and are validly supporting them) we have about this "iconography". We are not making officially proclamations nor are most of us pretending that we could even do so.

I don't believe that we are called to accept everything presented to us by a bishop at a conference.

Xpy
 
Upvote 0

Xpycoctomos

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2004
10,133
679
45
Midwest
✟13,419.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Then he needs to state what is an icon and what is art in his book and on his site and not obscure the line between icon and art.

That's my issue and i think it is a valid issue that at least that site doesn't address. I don't pretend to know more about iconography than any other Orthodox who has presented themselves here on this thread. I am only expressing a true concern.

I think before writing the bishop, one should write the iconographer. I might do that and ask him to kindly separate what he considers icons from his art and if he does not wish to do so, to just explain to me, a lay person, why it is better this way, or simply not important. Perhaps it will make sense.

I do have to say that the innovation of adding emotion does seem quite stark a contrast from the Orthodox stnadard. We are no longer talking about color or wavy lines versus rigid lines or eye shape or shadow. We are talking about parting from a traidtion which had specific reasons that they saw inherent in iconography if it were to be true iconography (and not just spiritually uplifiting art) for NOT adding emotion, and know purposely adding emotion. Perhaps this priest is right... and so is the bishop in accepting this. THen again, perhaps my priest and bishop are right in not accepting this (for certain reasons I can pretty confidently guess that they would not be in favor and no, i am not going to waste my bishop's time by emailing him these icons and askin' him what he thinks). I guess I am going to err on the side of caution and the side of tradition (big T, small t... I don't know) and of the vast majority. Maybe this bishop and this priest is right. but I don't think I will be missing out on anything by being cautious for the time being.

Xpy
 
Upvote 0

ikonographics

In patience I waited patiently on the Lord
Apr 27, 2008
2,530
497
Greece
Visit site
✟27,987.00
Country
Greece
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Please do not equate Fr. Stamatis Skliris with Gregory Kroug! Gregory Kroug and Leonid Ouspensky as well are very skilled iconographers, and while their work is just a tad primitive, they are exceptional artists and understand iconography very well. They show work in a very primitive style, similar to ancient Novgorod icons. This mans work attempts to turn iconography into expressionist art and introduces a sensuality into iconography that is not meant to be in iconography in the first place.

That is as if I were to say that the Novgorod School is rubbish, because I like the Cretan school. Are you at all familiar with the Macedonian School? Even if you are you'd probably turn your nose up at it because it is not Russian.:doh:
 
Upvote 0

ikonographics

In patience I waited patiently on the Lord
Apr 27, 2008
2,530
497
Greece
Visit site
✟27,987.00
Country
Greece
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
That's my issue and i think it is a valid issue that at least that site doesn't address. I don't pretend to know more about iconography than any other Orthodox who has presented themselves here on this thread. I am only expressing a true concern.

I think before writing the bishop, one should write the iconographer. I might do that and ask him to kindly separate what he considers icons from his art and if he does not wish to do so, to just explain to me, a lay person, why it is better this way, or simply not important. Perhaps it will make sense.

I do have to say that the innovation of adding emotion does seem quite stark a contrast from the Orthodox stnadard. We are no longer talking about color or wavy lines versus rigid lines or eye shape or shadow. We are talking about parting from a traidtion which had specific reasons that they saw inherent in iconography if it were to be true iconography (and not just spiritually uplifiting art) for NOT adding emotion, and know purposely adding emotion. Perhaps this priest is right... and so is the bishop in accepting this. THen again, perhaps my priest and bishop are right in not accepting this (for certain reasons I can pretty confidently guess that they would not be in favor and no, i am not going to waste my bishop's time by emailing him these icons and askin' him what he thinks). I guess I am going to err on the side of caution and the side of tradition (big T, small t... I don't know) and of the vast majority. Maybe this bishop and this priest is right. but I don't think I will be missing out on anything by being cautious for the time being.

Xpy

Fr Stamatis Skliris is more aware than anyone of the difference between "iconography" and "artwork". Those who do not live in an Orthodox country and Orthodox culture, are judging him by the wrong standards. In Greece Orthodoxy is a way of life, part of the very fabric of life and it infiltrates into every part of life, including art and music which is not necessarily "ecclesiastical". This is something that someone from the West where Orthodoxy is a "transplant", simply cannot understand.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Xpycoctomos

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2004
10,133
679
45
Midwest
✟13,419.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
As you are so quick to criticize other iconographers who know a great deal more about iconography and theology (not to mention humility) than you , how about showing us some of your icons so we may compare.

Look, while everyone here may have made personal judgments of taste regarding the icons, Nutroll and Michael's (two professional iconographers) are primarily making the point that there are certain aspects that break away from traditional iconography. Even the iconographer in question proudly admits that. They are not accusing him of something that he himself does not already advertise. They are, as a consequence, expressing concern as it does not fit in with any past tradition. At the very least one has to admit that it is a valid concern.

This isn't about who's iconography is prettier. There is iconography out there that is inline with Church teaching that would be, by most eyes, considered awkward and not very pretty. But it is much better to have that than a beatiful piece of art that breaks away from iconographic Tradition/tradition. Now, if you would like to continue questioing the importance of following this tradition/breaking away from it, that makes sense. You've got a bishop and a priest on your side so you can't be accused of being totally off in left field for arguing the less conservative POV in this case. But Nutroll and Michael can't be blamed for being a bit dismayed at seeing a bishop and a priest doing things in iconography that for them was always expressly forbidden. It would seem a bit mad on their parts to accept it hook line and sinker because some holy men said it was okay.

By the way, i can personally attest to the quality of Michael's work as I have bought an original from him and a copy of that original. I pray before it every night and my stuffy too-conservative priest liked it too. But... what does that really have to do with this thread?

Xpy
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.