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Post-Tribulation vs. Pre-Tribulation.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by -777warrior-, Mar 18, 2002.

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  1. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    If the righteous go to heaven and the wicked go to hell then who is left to inhabit the earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ? :confused:
  2. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    ----------(quote by post trib) I believe the purpose of the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon. (endquote)---------------

    You are correct. The primary purpose of the rapture is unite the dead in Christ with the living righteous into one body for the marriage. It has nothing to do with the current chruch age being so perfect that we are deemed worhty to escape persecution or tribulation.

    -----------(quote by post trib) This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married, we'll all get on our white horses, the clouds will part, "heaven" will be "opened" (Revelation 19:11), and we'll all descend with Christ to the battle (Revelation 19:14-15), and then land in Jerusalem for the supper (Revelation 19:9, Isaiah 25:5-9). (endquote)---------------

    Your view of the wedding feast happening on earth conflicts with Luke 14:23 which places the wedding feast in the Father's house. I can't think of a single verse in the bible which calls earth 'the father's house' but there are verses which indicate that the father's house is heaven.

    Does the slaughter of countless humans not conflict with your view on how a marriage ceremony should proceed? ;)
  3. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    So we both agree that the Rapture is at least a half hour before the Second Coming! :D

    I would point to the verse "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." I Corinthians 15:23

    I would use the analogy of a train:

    "Christ the firstfruits" would be the locomotive.

    "In his own order"
    The Church, pre-trib
    The 2 Witnesses, nearly mid-trib
    144,000 Israelites, post-trib
    Martyred Tribulation Saints, post-trib

    "Afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" All the cars are present and returning with Christ the firstfruits at the Second Coming!

    For me, II Thessalonians 2:7-8 gives us the order of the events (brackets added to illustrate):

    "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out [Rapture]of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed [7 Year Reign of the Antichrist] , whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. ["Second" coming in wrath with "Saved of All Ages"] " II Thessalonians 2:7-8

    I believe the "He that letteth" or the "Restrainer" is the Holy Spirit, and would also indicate the Church.

    I believe that Matthew 24:13 would apply to those elect (the 144,000 elect Israelites and the Martyred Saints) saved after this time, during the tribulation. By faith, they will have to endure until the end to be saved. The Holy Spirt would still have His sanctifying ministry, but it would be in heaven instead of on earth.
  4. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    > ...If the righteous go to heaven...

    At the rapture? What verse says this? I believe we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

    Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a U-turn coming of Jesus whereby he comes only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is also not the 2nd coming?

    1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

    > ...who is left to inhabit the
    > earth during the 1000 year reign
    > of Christ?...

    I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millenium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millenium.

    > ...Luke 14:23 which places
    > the wedding feast in the
    > Father's house...

    Does the parable of Luke 14:16-24 speak of either "the wedding feast" or "the Father's house?"

    What is the message of the parable of Luke 14:16-24?

    > ...Does the slaughter of
    > countless humans not conflict
    > with your view on how a marriage
    > ceremony should proceed?...

    I believe the marriage ceremony is completed in the clouds before Armageddon begins.

    > ...the "Restrainer" is the
    > Holy Spirit...

    I don't believe the one holding back the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the Holy Spirit because many Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9).

    > ...and would also indicate
    > the Church...

    I don't believe the one holding back the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the church because many Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

  5. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member


    You post is a bit confusing in that it apparently combines quotes from two different posts by two different authors. In the future could you please identify the authors of the quotes you are using to avoid creating the impression that I have said things which I do not believe? :)

    There are various positions within the post-trib camp, as well as the mid-trib, and pre-trib. The beginning of your post you quote my post which was directed at the post-tribbers who believe 'last day' resurrection in which the rapture/resurrection occurs on the last 24 hour period of the age, followed by judgments. That view doesn't leave anybody to inhabit the earth for the 1000 year reign. Since you have a modified position this quote would not have been directed at you.

    I am not going to discect your post point by point, scripture by scripture. It gets way too complicated way too fast. I will discuss some pertinent points which weakens your position so that you cannot offer them as 'proof' of a post trib position.

    3rd coming of Jesus

    The coming and going of Jesus from heaven to earth isn't sequentially numbered. After his resurrection he told Martha to not touch him because he had not yet ascended to his father. Yet later on he commands others to touch him. This implies that at some point between these two occasions he had ascended into heaven. Even if you don't accept that implication there is still the unmistakeable appearance of Jesus to Paul after the final ascension. At the very least this appearance to Paul would be coming number two. The fact that the writer of Hebrews doesn't count this appearance indicates that Jesus coming and going from heaven to earth was all part of the 'first' coming. By this precident we are not required to refer to the third coming or fourth coming etc. Every appearance of Jesus on earth would be considered part of the second coming, just as every appearance of Jesus on earth in the first century was considered part of the first coming.

    The parable in Luke: While Luke doesn't identify this as the 'wedding feast' it is so close in it's elements to the parable of Matt 22 that a person would be hard pressed to deny that they are accounts of the same event. Likewise, the phrase 'father's house' does not appear, but again a person would have difficulty denying that the 'certain man' spoken of is God, and the man says 'my house'.

    The traditional interpretation (in my church, don't know if this is universal) is that the man is God/Christ, his house is the church, the servants are christians and that christians are to somehow go out into the world and 'compel' people to come to church. I absolutely deny this interpretation based on the fact that nowhere else in the bible are christians told to 'compel' (force) people into the kingdom or church.

    (My understanding of Luke) The man is God, his house is heaven, the servants are angels. The feast is the wedding supper and the guests are the dead of the old testament. According to older versions of Strongs (this has been changed in newer editions) the word translated 'highways' is a greek composite word 'diexhodos' one possible translation being 'among the dead'. Using these elements we see a resurrection of both the righteous and wicked at the same time, to act as wedding guests, with the wicked being cast out and the righteous staying. This is a seperate resurrection than the rapture/resurrection in which only the 'dead in chirst' are raised to life.
  6. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    If you don't think the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit, then who is He?

    Could anyone be saved before Pentecost? I believe the answer is yes from reading Hebrews Chapter 11. And the Old Testament mentions saints, too. Those saints are saved by faith. It is still the Holy Spirit that is needed for salvation. Before Pentecost, He was in heaven, just as I believe after the Rapture, prior to the 7-year reign of the Antichrist. While the Church is in the world the Holy Spirit seals us on Earth until the day of redemption.

    The Church is also Spiritual Israel from Romans 9-11.
    After the time the Gentiles be come in, partial blindness of the elect remnant of natural Israel will be lifted. They will be regrafted in to Spiritual Israel.

    "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."
    "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." Romans 11:25,28

    They will be regrafted in, by faith and election, enduring until the end (Matthew 24:13).

    During the Tribulation, we see the Martyred Saints saved, but the Holy Spirit is in heaven, not on earth:

    "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." Revelation 14:12-13

    I believe it is the Holy Spirit giving the Martyred Tribulation Saints their white "sanctification" robes in heaven, not earth in Revelation 6:9-11:

    "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Revelation 6:9-11

    In contrast, the Spirit is on Earth while the Seven Churches are still in the world. Notice in Revelation 22, the closing chapter of Revelation where the scene is back to AD 95, He is giving utterance to the Bride to say "Come", a call for watchfulness and imminence:

    "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
    And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:16-17
  7. Rjano21

    Rjano21 New Member

    Christians will reign as kings and priests with Christ, and those unbelievers not killed at Armageddon will still be here. "...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Rev 20:4,6

    Isn't it obvious that those returning with Christ in Rev 19 are staying on the earth to reign with him? Also read Zechariah 14, which is an account of Armageddon and the aftermath. Verse 16 says: "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles" Those people not killed at the second coming will still inhabit earth.

    I still think the rest of my points were valid and haven't been answered. The only rapture mentioned by Jesus Christ himself is after the tribulation (Matt 24:31). Why did he not mention a rapture before the tribulation if one existed? Was he trying to deceive us and cause confusion? Of course not.

    The first resurrection of the dead has not begun yet, that's an unfounded belief with no Bible support. To this day, Christ himself (and the 3 people he raised while on earth) are the only people who have been resurrected. There can't be more than one "first" resurrection, thats a logical impossibility. There might be 3 phases that occur immediately after each other, but you can't separate them by 2000+ years. That's unfounded This first resurrection includes those who died in the tribulation, therefore it cannot be before it. The resurrection of unbelievers occurs 1000 years after the first one. (Rev 20:5)

    Just remember that's your assumption and you can't found a doctrine on it. I believe the only thing restraining him is time, indicated by the previous verse. Its simply not time for him to be revealed yet :idea:

    And last, i'm not going to debate an old testament law given to Israel. It doesn't apply to God. It applied to Jesus when he walked the earth as a man, but he's no longer a mere man, he's the eternal Word of God.
  8. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member


    I would ask the same of you as I did post-trib, when you quote two different authors please identify the authors to avoid confusion. I made the first three quotes in your post, but not the fourth.

    I do not wish to offend you. If we are brothers in Christ then our differing views on prophecy are irrelevant to our salvation. But I must ask you a question. Are you seeking truth, or are you only looking for verses to support what you already believe?

    I have provided verses which prove the resurrection/rapture occurs at least a year before Christ returns on the white horse. I've shown from scripture the verse's relevance, using the words of Jesus himself which proclaims that all things written about him by Moses had to be fulfilled. If you are really seeking truth you cannot simply look for excuses to ignore these verses.

    I did not answer all your points concerning the rapture/resurrection. In discussions such as this it is necessary to deal with only a very few points at a time, otherwise we are just quoting scripture at each other.

    I will assume you are a sincere Christian seeking truth, therefore I will continue the discussion.

    Bible support for the first resurrection having already begun: 1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    Paul is plainly teaching that Jesus started the resurrection, and it proceeds in an orderly fashion, each in his own order. Paul himself inserted the gap between resurrections by making Christ FIRST.

    I don't know where you got three people resurrected by Christ. I know that Paul also raised the dead and off the top of my head it seems that Peter did also, and possibly other disciples as well but I'd have to look that up and I'm not going to take the time to do that right this moment. We also have people in the OT resurrected as well. In any event here is a verse to look at. Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    Now this is an interesting resurrection and it is unfortunate that the bible never mentions them again. Since it is at the same time as Jesus' resurection then we could surmise that the 'many bodies' were part of the firstfruits gathering and were raised in incorruptible bodies the same as Jesus, unlike the Lazarus type resurrection miracles performed by Jesus and others. While we don't have enough proof to say one way or another it does fit nicely as part of first fruits and further strengthens the fact that the first resurrection began 2000 years ago. Either way it shows that there were more than three people resurrected in the bible.

    Now before you get too carried away with 1,2,3 numbering of resurrections let me remind you that JESUS WAS FIRST! If we number resurrections in sequence then the resurrection of those beheaded for refusing the mark would be SECOND. Obvious the bible isn't using a 1,2,3 numbering system but is more along the lines of

    a. Firstfruits
    b. Harvest
    c. Gleanings

    So what I've presented isn't a 'logical impossiblilty' but rather subcatagories under the primary number, which Paul explains in the corinthian verses I've quoted.
  9. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    We cannot deny the Holy Spirit inspiration of the entire Bible. Many things are mysteries and have to be spiritually discerned.

    We, here, are in the flesh, and have to strive for that spiritual discernment.

    I believe it is possible that Matthew 24 has a double application. We must remember that the entire history of the Church has seen great tribulation, as Israel has and will. Fox's Book of Martyrs

    Also, Jesus used the term "gather". This probably refers to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb just before the Second Coming, where the Saved of All Ages are gathered.

    It may be "logically" impossible, just as the resurrection itself. But, of course, it has already begun, as you just said. The first resurrection began happening nearly 2000 years ago.
  10. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    If there have been immortal bodies given to the ressurected dead in Christ for the last 2000 years, I missed it. Not much has been said about these people other than what is in the Bible, and that was at least 1905 years ago.
    What other people have been resurrected & given immortal bodies in the last 1907 years? I haven't heard one name mentioned, how am I expected to believe this has been going on, unknown, for 1907 years?
    I havent seen any scripture which indicates that at the 2nd coming all people will be killed. So some remain, obviously. The war is in Megiddo, not worldwide. God's wrath obviously doesn't eliminate all human life.
    AT one time I believed in a mid trib rapture, but now post trib. But nowhere, does scripture indicate a pre trib rapture, in my opinion. I think this opinion is based on "hope". I also see no scripture indicating a difference between the secong coming & the rapture of the church, they are spoken of as one event, not 2. Rather, simultaneously.
    Jesus fullfilled the law on the cross per scripture. Is it a sin now to be uncircumcised?
    Rev 19:7 is the rapture of the church(for the marriage of the Lamb is come, & His wife hath made herself ready), & in verse 11 Jesus descends on a white horse to battle at armageddon.
    This is the same as Rev. 14 in different detail. (the voice of many waters, thunder, the patience of the saints, the 144,000 being the firstfruits with God's name in their forehead standing with the Lamb on mount Sion, Babylon has fallen, people are worshipping the beast & his image on earth,"Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth", thus Holy Spirit still on earth, verse 14 shows Christ upon a white cloud,then reaping & harvesting, followed by God's wrath).
  11. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Revelation 6:15-17

    "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
    That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." Revelation 19:11-18

    "And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."Revelation 14:20

    "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries" Psalm 110:6:5-6

    "I have trodden down the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my rainment. For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. Isaiah 63:3-4

    "Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow: for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. Joel 3:12-14

    It should be noted that "all the heathen round about" could refer to the entire planet. Joel wrote by inspiration in days long ago when the concept of a round planet was novel.
  12. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    Your post indicates He will rule them with a rod of iron, so obviously all are not killed, although many think they will not be able to stand.
  13. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    The final verse of Revelation 19 indicates any who "managed to escape" will be slain:

    "And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceedeth out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." Revelation 19:21

    All that will be left will be the glorified Lamb and those who returned with Him: the 144,000 and Great Multitude, the resurrected Martyred Saints, in other words, the Saved of All Ages. I believe that the 144,000 are symbolic of elect Jews and the Great Multitude symbolic of elect Gentiles who will comprise the completed Church, or Spiritual Israel.

    We might can borrow something from the Amillenialists, and say that it is possible that II Peter 3:8 would then apply, and rather than 1000 years later but on the same day would be the Last Judgement, and we could immediatly go into the New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 21 where:

    "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4
  14. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    Remnent is mentioned several times & I don't believe it refers to all of mankind.
  15. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    Who said anything about people being resurrected during the last 1900 years? Paul clearly states the resurrrection begins with Christ, the next phase is those who are his at his coming. No need to expect any resurrections until his coming.

    We see Jesus fulfilling the law after the cross. Hebrews tells us that Jesus is the High Priest, that he went into the heavenly holy of holies to sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice on the alter. There are all things which are commanded under the law, and Jesus continued to fulfill the law after the crucifixion. I also quoted scripture in a previous post whereby Jesus stated that ALL things written about him by Moses must be fulfilled. Must we make Jesus a transgressor of the law in order to hold on to particular views? People in general don't seem to have much difficulty pointing to OT prophecies and forshadowings to strengthen their views on the second coming, so why should the verses I quoted pose such a stumbling block? Can anyone say with a certainty that the OT verses I quoted were NOT intended by God to reveal a timetable of endtime events? Can anyone show anywhere else in the bible where Jesus transgressed the law in any manner, whether before or after the crucifixion? In all the OT law why would Jesus transgress JUST THIS ONE, yet keep all others? If anyone's views of the entime depend upon ignoring verses which contradict their views then they are doomed to grope in darkness.
  16. BigEd

    BigEd an adopted child of God

    very interesting discussion.
    I'm still sitting on the fence between pre and post trib.
    I always try to remember the scribes and pharasices didn't know christ when he was there... so I feel I must be very careful about end time events. I like a quote i once heard ( i don't know who it is from)

    " I'll hope for a pre-trib rapture , but be prepared for a post-trib rapture."
  17. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    A wise decision Ed. Very few people have the time/energy/desire/wisdom/knowldge to study prophecy, and all these things are moot without the leading of the Holy Spirit. There is nothing wrong with not staking your claim to a particular teaching, and salvation doesn't depend upon even having a clue as to what prophecy means. The Lord has placed it on my heart to study prohecy, but that is for me, for you it might be evangalism, or singing, or some other function in the body.
  18. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    Willis Deal:
    I don't believe he left and came back, but that in John 20:17 he was telling Mary not to hold on because (as he told the disciples in John 14), he still had to go to heaven before he came back for good. I believe Matthew 28:9 and John 20:17 describe the same event from different perspectives.

    Paul's "heavenly vision" of Jesus (Acts 26:19) wasn't a physical coming of Jesus to earth.

    I believe we can be the bride and the guests, for while the bride is one, she is made up of many members (1 Corinthians 12:12), which were all invited by the preaching of the gospel to become part of the body of Christ, though some believers will be subsequently rejected because of unrepentant unrighteousness (Matthew 22:2-14; Revelation 16:15, 19:8).

    I believe it would be the 2nd resurrection, after the millenium.

    Some say no unbelievers can be "left" because they're all cast into everlasting punishment at the 2nd coming. But I believe the sheep and goat judgment of all nations (Matthew 25:32-46) is not until the white throne judgment after the millenium (Revelation 20:11-15), when I believe the sheep will enter the eternal kingdom prepared beforehand (Revelation 21:2-3), and the goats will enter everlasting punishment (Revelation 20:15). Note that only the Antichrist and False Prophet go into everlasting punishment at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20).

    While it's true that only God can restrain evil, he does this through his angels (for example, Revelation 20:1-3, 12:7-9). God himself cannot be "taken out of the way" (2 Thessalonians 2:7) like angels and nations can be, for he is omnipresent.

    The restrainer could be the archangel Michael, but it may not be. In Daniel 12:1 "stand up" (amad) may not mean "stand down" because amad is used consistently in Daniel (8:22, 23, 25; 11:2, 3, 4, 7, 14, 20, 21) to refer to the rising up of a power. Daniel 12:1 probably refers to the 2nd coming; Michael may be the archangel referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

    The restrainer may be another angel, AND a political power that keeps the Antichrist from taking over the Middle East and Europe: in Paul's day it would have been the Roman Empire; today it would be the US. The US has to be removed as a superpower in the world before the Antichrist can take over the Middle East and Europe.

    I believe the OT saints are now also part of the bride, for even though at one time they weren't yet (compare Matthew 16:18, Luke 7:28) because they died before the cross and before Pentecost, I believe that after the resurrection Jesus went and preached to them (1 Peter 3:18-19, 4:6) and led them up into heaven with him (Ephesians 4:8-10). I believe the old covenant was abolished on the cross, so that Christ was able to join all the saints previously under the old covenant and all the saints under the new covenant into one body (Ephesians 2:12-19, 4:4-6), which body is his bride (Ephesians 5:30-32). Now all believers are after the cross and after Pentecost.

    How could saints living after the cross and after Pentecost (not OT) who have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not be in his body, which is the church? "He is the head of the body, the church" (Colossians 1:18), "The church, Which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23), "His body's sake, which is the church" (Colossians 1:24). And how could they not have the Spirit dwelling in them? "Ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9). The Holy Spirit won't leave us when the tribulation begins: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever" (John 14:16).

    Note that in no scripture are we promised a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus said he would come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul said Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

    I believe the Spirit is answering the voice from heaven.

    Does it say "sanctification?"

    I don't believe the Bible anywhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any time, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

    Willis Deal:
    I believe Christ alone was the firstfruits of the resurrection into immortal bodies: "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:22-23). I don't believe Matthew 27:52-53 was a resurrection into immortal bodies, but that they were simply resuscitated like Lazarus was (John 12:1).

    I believe the resurrection and changing of all Christians into their immortal bodies will occur at a single point in time, at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), at the 2nd coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23), and that this is why it says "the first resurrection" will also include all of us Christians who will die in the tribulation (Revelation 20:4-5).

    Yes, and I believe that Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and 1 Corinthians 15:52 is referring to the same "coming" of Jesus and the same "gathering together" of the saints and the same "trumpet" and the same "clouds" as Matthew 24:29-31, which says all these will occur "immediately after the tribulation." I don't believe the scriptures teach a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.

    Would Jesus need to force those who returned with Him to come up to Jerusalem to worship Him? (Zechariah 14:16-18) Would we need to rule those who returned with Him with a rod of iron? (Revelation 2:26-29)

    Willis Deal:
    "The priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (Hebrews 7:12). "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" (Hebrews 10:9).

    Not directly, but I believe knowing the rapture's timing is still important because if some Christians believe with all their heart that Jesus has promised them a pre-trib rapture, couldn't "many be offended" if it doesn't happen?

    "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (Matthew 24:9-12).

    "The same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended" (Matthew 13:20-21).

    I believe Jesus told us everything we'd have to face beforehand for a good reason, so that we wouldn't be offended: "Take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things (Mark 13:23). "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6). To be forewarned is to be forearmed: mentally, emotionally, and spiritually (and possibly even physically, if the Lord so leads).

    I believe the pre-trib doctrine could be setting the church up for great disappointment and confusion and the falling away from the faith: "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith" (1 Timothy 4:1), and this departure from the faith will happen before Jesus comes to rapture us: "We beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him... Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [apostasy] first" (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 3).

    Is there a verse that some believe requires the rapture be before the tribulation? My only concern is if there isn't a pre-trib rapture that nobody think that something has gone wrong.

    "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

  19. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member


    I agree with some of your post, particularly about the pre-trib rapture teaching being very dangerous if it happens to be false. That was one reason I was very cautious to thoroughly study prophecy before ever trying to share what I've learned. While I am convinced that a pre-trib rapture is the most likely scenario I'm not trying to prove that teaching here, what I am doing is offering verses which dispute the one scenario which CANNOT be true. I'm not going to try to refute your first few points refering to multiple comings of Jesus. Your views are legitimate and possibly correct, I offered the post to show how multiple appearances of Christ can occur without violating the numbering system.

    Again this is a legitimate view, but it does seem a bit odd that God is always portrayed as the Father, Jesus is always the bridegroom, but the bride can be the bride, ten virgins, wedding guests, and friends of the bridegroom. Would it not have been better to stick with a simpler analogy such as all believers being children of God, without introducing all the complexities of a wedding analogy? And since God went to all the effort to virtually beat us over the head with the wedding analogy shouldn't we see what else God has to say about weddings... Oh, wait a minute, we can't really because virtually every wedding example is in the OT and you've ruled that out :scratch: . It's a pity Jesus doesn't have to follow GOD's law, because if he did then certainly Lev. 21:14 would apply to Jesus as high priest, and he would be forbidden to marry 'A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.' In that scenario Jesus would be forbidden to marry the divorced wife of God (Israel). It would then be easy to understand why the disciples were 'friends of the bridegroom' because they couldn't be the bride, and the OT saints would be wedding guests, because they couldn't be the bride. As it is we simply have to accept that God couldn't keep his analogy straight and had to portray the church as bride, friends of bridegroom, and wedding guests. No wonder prophecy is so hard to understand. ;)

    I've considered Michael as the restrainer myself. There are several possibilities and Michael is just as likely as any of the other suggestions. I don't believe it is the scenario believed by some which is the Holy Spirit which withdraws to heaven so that none can be saved.

    Of course those saints caught between the OT and NT are in the body of Christ, but if we were allowed to look at the OT we might see a forshadowing in the creation of Eve, which was taken from Adam's body (same as the bride is taken from Christ's). God didn't use ALL of Adam's body to create Eve, only a part, so it would show us that some who are in Christ's body aren't necessarily the bride. Of course we are forbidden to use the OT so this is another one of those issues we're just going to have to rely on speculation because God didn't see fit to explain it to us in the New Testament.

    I would request you amend this statement to read 'No New Testament scripture' rather than 'no scripture' since you you insist we ignore OT scripture which rules out a post-trib rapture and by implication does promise a mid or pre trib rapture. :wave:

    There isn't enough scripture to prove what type of resurrection this was. You could be right, I could be right.

    Corinthians doesn't say '2nd coming', to insert that phrase is misleading.

    If the OT saints and the dead in christ are raised at the same time, and there are absolutely no resurrections prior to that point and only the second resurrection left, which comes 1000 years later, how do you explain Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

    Again we see Jesus portraying a resurrection and judgment of the righteous and wicked at the same time. Since by your account there is only one resurrection which includes the OT saints we must stretch Paul's words 'the dead in Christ' to mean OT saints, Christ's wicked generation, and Christians. Pretty far stretch.

    Since you quoted from Daniel 12:1 earlier in your post perhaps I can sneak in Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Strange how Daniel says 'many' (not all, obviously he is seeing only ONE resurrection) will wake, some to life and some to contempt. :scratch:

    Again, I believe you should limit yourself to New Testament verses, since you refuse to consider any OT verse.

    I hope this post hasn't come across too harsh. I am really enjoying this discussion and I really don't wish to offend anyone. :hug:
  20. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    United States
    Hello Willis, post-trib and everyone,
    Why can you not use the old testament here?? I just thought that I might point out that you can use Adam, because he is also talked about in the New Testament as well. In fact it talks about both Adams. The first Adam (flesh), and the second Adam (spirit). Read 1 Corr. 15, very interesting !!
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