Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

[jgr]

Romans 9:3-5 (TLV) For I would pray that I myself were cursed, banished from Messiah for the sake of my people—my own flesh and blood, 4 who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Torah and the Temple service and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs—and from them, according to the flesh, the Messiah, who is over all, God, blessed forever. Amen.

Belong is present tense, not past as some might suppose. It goes to what I stated earlier.... one can be elect and not saved, but all saved are elect. The Messiah was elect, all Israel is elect, and those who place their trust in Messiah are elect. Even a gentile ruler was once God's "anointed" and technically His elect.

Paul's heart is for the unbelieving brethren (Israelites) who he still maintains identity with and, if necessary, would allow himself to be cursed for their sakes if it would cause them to come to faith in Messiah. So it is not some believing remnant that Paul is talking about, it is all Hebrews. One of the reasons that I think Paul is the author behind the book of Hebrews. Yet in the midst of his heartbreak for his fellow Hebrews that have yet to come to faith, Paul maintains that to them still belongs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the scripture, the Temple service, and the promises. In other words, Paul is confirming what Isaiah said that all of Jacob (Israel) is YHVH's elect.

It is equally true that not all of Israel (physically) are the true Israel of faith of the Patriarchs. But they are still elect, even in unbelief, for the sake of the Patriarchs. Ezekiel is very clear that Israel will be restored (as it has been) initially in unbelief. They are just not justified to God thru Messiah yet. There is indeed a remnant that have come to faith ever since the first century, and even more so today, and those are joined with the Ekklesia. But they retain their physical identity as Israelites. The passage above, even Paul retains his Hebrew identity. But I think we can all agree that he is part of the Ekklesia.

So, the Ekklesia (Church) is not physical Israel, contrary to some theology, and Israel is not the Ekklesia. Some of Israel are saved, but not all are. All within the Ekklesia are saved, else they are not part of the Ekklesia.

And as for their restoration... Praise YHWH! Hosea was clear that national Israel would have to acknowledge their offense of rejecting the Messiah and cry out for His return before He would. And Yeshua Himself confirmed this in Matthew 23. Now that they are in the land per the Prophecy.... WOW! Our redemption draws near!!!! Makes me giddy just thinking about it!

Israel is no longer genetically distinguishable. Israel is genetically ubiquitous in the entire human race.

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132800
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/tracing-lost-israelite-tribes-to-africa-1.5283901
https://www.cnn.com/2013/02/01/world/africa/nigeria-jews-igbo/index.html
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Is the entire human race going to be "restored"?

There's a name for that. It's an old heterodoxy known as "universalism".

You do, however, have every right to be as giddy as you wish.

 

[Copperhead]

Well then YHVH is a liar. So you decide which side I will take. It really doesn't matter what the gene pool is. Israel as it sits in the Land of Canaan right now has fulfilled the prophecies of Ezekiel (including Leviticus 26) and Jerusalem was retaken as per Daniel. Both of these events, a case can be made that they were fulfilled to the very day following the very same math calculations plainly laid out in scripture. No Nostrodamus nonsense. Over 50 prophecies have been fulfilled by modern Israel in the land. Now I really don't think it matters what you, I, or anyone else thinks about their bloodline or lineage. YHVH knows who they are. And someone, no matter how much they want to, cannot come along and fulfill those prophecies to the letter, and some to the very day, no matter how much they try. Even with Rothschilds or any other conspiracy group behind them.

That holding on to the idea that there are no real physical Hebrew descendants today is just a bunch of meadow muffins and yet another way to make God out to be a liar. That is very dangerous ground to be treading on. But who am I to stop anyone from messing up. It isn't like they haven't had the information.

For instance, how will the nations be judged (sheep and goat judgement) of Matthew 25:31-46. Carefully read it. Who is considered worthy to go into the millennial kingdom? And on what basis are they considered worthy? I would contend the nations are being judged on how they treated the Hebrews (Yeshua's brethren, Paul's brethren, etc). The sheep are not considered worthy on how they treated the Church or people in general. Read carefully what those being judged say. The condemned feign ignorance and assert that they don't know who Yeshua's brethren, the Hebrews, are either. Sounds a little like today. No, it is a judgement of how the nations treated the Hebrews during the GT period. Therefore, there has to be literal, physical Hebrews. They may not be 100% Hebrew, but hey, even in Yeshua's bloodline He was not 100% genetically Hebrew. Remember Rahab? Remember Ruth? By the time Obed was born to Ruth and Boaz, he was only 1/4 Hebrew! Yet that is the lineage of Yeshua.

 

[jgr]

YHVH knows who they are.

He certainly does. And He knows them by His two simple ageless criteria. And only the believing remnant irrespective of ethnicity possesses them.

Faith and obedience.

The criteria by which the nations will be judged.

Here are Christ's brethren:
Matthew 12
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

You need to scripturalize your understanding of the "brethren" whom Christ recognizes.

Then you'll understand Matthew 25:40:
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Therefore, there has to be literal, physical Hebrews.

That's exactly what there are. And their DNA is in all of us. Which leaves His two simple ageless criteria as His only conditions for acceptance.

Faith and obedience.

Same as they have always been since the beginning of Covenant history. (Genesis 17:12).

Notwithstanding dispensationalism's incessant attempts to perpetuate its racialized pseudogospel.

 

[Copperhead]

So what you are saying then, is that you choose to rely on what man has to say about who are the physical Hebrews?

I am not sure about any dispensational assertions you think I made. I never knowingly brought any of that to the table.

I am not denying that those who trust in Yeshua and do His will are not also His brothers and sisters, but Paul and Yeshua both delineate who their brethren after the flesh are.

Now back to Matthew 25. If those that are called the sheep are blessed and considered righteous (verse 37), how is it they are not also Yeshua's brethren since they are righteous, yet, they are judged on how they treated Yeshua's brethren? One is only righteous thru Yeshua, yet these are being judged and considered righteous to enter the kingdom on how they treated His brethren. If they are righteous, and already Yeshua's brethren in the flesh by your assertion, how does that fit?

The passage makes no sense using your assertion. It is the nations being judged on how they treated Yeshua's fleshly brethren. Matthew starts out this passage (V32) claiming it is the nations who are gathered before Him, then goes on to judge them on how they treated His brethren. There are two groups in view... the nations (i.e. gentiles which is what nations means throughout scripture) and Yeshua's brethren. Yeshua is a Jew. Of the Tribe Judah. The Lion of the Tribe of Judah to be exact. His brethren in this context is the House of Jacob. Those that treated His brethren, the Hebrews, justly will be granted mercy. Those who did not will be punished. While the context is the end of the tribulation period and the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom, it is a lesson we need to take to heart on how we view physical Israel.

Also using your logic, if all the world is now Hebrew in the flesh, how is it that only a small portion took it upon themselves to fulfill 50 prophecies, as it pertains to the modern state of Israel? The mathematical probabilities are astronomical and based on the laws of probability, impossible. Anything with a greater than 10 to the 50th power is technically impossible. That is the standard recognized in the field of probability. Yet the probability of fulfilling all 50 prophecies as modern Israel has done exceeds that probability. And why does the world have such angst against Israel, if all the world is now physically Hebrew per your assertion, as the prophets said would be the case in the latter days? Especially those who claim to know Messiah and trust in Him? Why would so many that claim to know Messiah have such animosity toward the state of Israel and those who are part of it?

I am more convinced than ever that Israel is a litmus test put in place for such a time as this.

And also, if YHVH cannot keep His promise to physical Israel as a distinct entity as opposed to the rest of the nations, then what assurance is there that He will keep His promise to those who place their trust in Yeshua? If YHVH is capricious enough to ignore the details of His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then what basis is there to trust He will not also act capriciously towards those who have placed their trust in Him?

And Hosea 5:14 - 6:2 makes it very clear that the Hebrews (both Israel and Judah together in V14) must acknowledge their offense of rejecting Yeshua and call for His return. Yeshua Himself affirmed this in Matthew 23. What offense of rejection of the Messiah did those who trust in Him and are also considered His brethren by faith commit? If they have trusted in Him, they have not rejected Him. It is a non sequitur. So that only leaves the fact of a unique, physical Hebrew people in view. Who was Yeshua speaking to when He affirmed Hosea in Matthew 23:39? The Hebrew leadership of Israel, not the world.

 

[jgr]

So what you are saying then, is that you choose to rely on what man has to say about who are the physical Hebrews?

I am not sure about any dispensational assertions you think I made. I never knowingly brought any of that to the table.

I am not denying that those who trust in Yeshua and do His will are not also His brothers and sisters, but Paul and Yeshua both delineate who their brethren after the flesh are.

Now back to Matthew 25. If those that are called the sheep are blessed and considered righteous (verse 37), how is it they are not also Yeshua's brethren since they are righteous, yet, they are judged on how they treated Yeshua's brethren? One is only righteous thru Yeshua, yet these are being judged and considered righteous to enter the kingdom on how they treated His brethren. If they are righteous, and already Yeshua's brethren in the flesh by your assertion, how does that fit?

The passage makes no sense using your assertion. It is the nations being judged on how they treated Yeshua's fleshly brethren. Matthew starts out this passage (V32) claiming it is the nations who are gathered before Him, then goes on to judge them on how they treated His brethren. There are two groups in view... the nations (i.e. gentiles which is what nations means throughout scripture) and Yeshua's brethren. Yeshua is a Jew. Of the Tribe Judah. The Lion of the Tribe of Judah to be exact. His brethren in this context is the House of Jacob. Those that treated His brethren, the Hebrews, justly will be granted mercy. Those who did not will be punished. While the context is the end of the tribulation period and the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom, it is a lesson we need to take to heart on how we view physical Israel.

Also using your logic, if all the world is now Hebrew in the flesh, how is it that only a small portion took it upon themselves to fulfill 50 prophecies, as it pertains to the modern state of Israel? The mathematical probabilities are astronomical and based on the laws of probability, impossible. Anything with a greater than 10 to the 50th power is technically impossible. That is the standard recognized in the field of probability. Yet the probability of fulfilling all 50 prophecies as modern Israel has done exceeds that probability. And why does the world have such angst against Israel, if all the world is now physically Hebrew per your assertion, as the prophets said would be the case in the latter days? Especially those who claim to know Messiah and trust in Him? Why would so many that claim to know Messiah have such animosity toward the state of Israel and those who are part of it?

I am more convinced than ever that Israel is a litmus test put in place for such a time as this.

And also, if YHVH cannot keep His promise to physical Israel as a distinct entity as opposed to the rest of the nations, then what assurance is there that He will keep His promise to those who place their trust in Yeshua? If YHVH is capricious enough to ignore the details of His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then what basis is there to trust He will not also act capriciously towards those who have placed their trust in Him?

And Hosea 5:14 - 6:2 makes it very clear that the Hebrews (both Israel and Judah together in V14) must acknowledge their offense of rejecting Yeshua and call for His return. Yeshua Himself affirmed this in Matthew 23. What offense of rejection of the Messiah did those who trust in Him and are also considered His brethren by faith commit? If they have trusted in Him, they have not rejected Him. It is a non sequitur. So that only leaves the fact of a unique, physical Hebrew people in view. Who was Yeshua speaking to when He affirmed Hosea in Matthew 23:39? The Hebrew leadership of Israel, not the world.

There are only two NT instances where the expression “my brethren” means “my fleshly brethren”. In Romans 9:3 and Hebrews 2:16-17, Paul explicitly qualifies his meaning.

In virtually every other NT instance, the meaning is “my spiritual brethren”.

In Matthew 25:40, Jesus is affirming admonitions, seen throughout the NT, that the true faith is to be characterized by the temporal and material care of the brethren in the Church for one another as expressions of His love. (Acts 20:35; Galatians 6:2,10; Romans 12:13; 1 John 3:17; James 1:27; James 2:14-17; John 15:12; Hebrews 6:10). There is no restriction or limitation to fleshly brethren expressed or implied.



What prophecy relating to the modern state of Israel is fulfilled under the New Covenant, which is the only Covenant now in force and effect?

Why would you not believe Scripture when it declares that Christ, and those in Christ, are the complete fulfillment of, and Heirs to, all of God's covenant promises? (Luke 24:25-27,44; Romans 8:16-17; Galatians 3:16,28,29; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Hebrews 1:1,2)



The presence of any particular gene amongst the thousands each individual possesses does not foreordain thought or action relating to that gene. I have German genes, but I abhor Germany's past behavior. I have Abraham's genes, but they do not foreordain what I think about Abraham. Nor do they determine the presence or absence of any angst about Israel.

Those who know Messiah and the Israel of God, recognize that modern temporal Israel is a counterfeit product of political and military subterfuge and terrorism with no basis in Scripture. It is the antithesis of what Christ proclaimed during His ministry. He declared that the Pharisees, who sought carnal temporal fulfillments of spiritual promises, were children of the devil.



God has done what every human being who writes his or her own Will and Testament has the privilege and prerogative to do: Update it to designate or change His Heir, and to replace the previous promises with new and better promises (Hebrews 1:1,2; Hebrews 8:6,8,13). Why would you consider that to not be keeping His promises?

Why would you deny God the right and privilege to update His own Will and Testament?

 

[Copperhead]

What prophecy relating to the modern state of Israel is fulfilled under the New Covenant, which is the only Covenant now in force and effect?

Considering that there are at least 5 covenants given by YHVH in the Tanakh, which one do you suppose was superseded by the New Covenant? All of them?

Jeremiah 31:31-32 (NKJV) “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

Best I can tell from this, Ol' Jere is referencing the Mosaic / Sinai Covenant. That leaves the Adamic Covenant, The Noahic Covenant, The Abrahamic Covenant, the David Covenant at least. For instance, if the Noahic Covenant is no longer valid, it might be wise to invest in some flood insurance even if one lives on top of Mt. Everest. If the Davidic Covenant is no longer in effect, the Yeshua has no claim to rule. If either of these covenants have been superseded by the New Covenant as you claim above, then either you or YHVH is a liar. I think you might have a clue who I will side with.

Why would you not believe Scripture when it declares that Christ, and those in Christ, are the complete fulfillment of, and Heirs to, all of God's covenant promises? (Luke 24:25-27,44; Romans 8:16-17; Galatians 3:16,28,29; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Hebrews 1:1,2)

I can't help but get a chuckle when folks use Galatians 3 for a support text to say that there is no Jew now. It is clear in saying that while there is no Jew or Greek, male or female, etc that it is speaking in spiritual not physical terms. ala Hebrews 11. I have yet to find one person, who truly holds that there is neither male or female, have everyone in the congregation meeting strip to prove the point. To say that there is no Jew or Greek, male or female, etc in the physical realm is hyper literalism on steroids. And it makes one look extremely silly. The context is clearly meaning in a spiritual sense, within the Body of Messiah. The same as when Paul makes the point that all of Israel (physical) are not the true Israel (spiritual) of the Patriarchs. Paul likewise wishes he was cursed, if it would cause his brethren of the flesh, physical Israel, to repent. He delineates physical and spiritual Israel, but doesn't deny that physical Israel is still a valid entity. So while Paul does say within the Messiah there is neither Jew or Greek, he does still recognizes that there are physical Jews and Greeks.

God has done what every human being who writes his or her own Will and Testament has the privilege and prerogative to do: Update it to designate or change His Heir, and to replace the previous promises with new and better promises (Hebrews 1:1,2; Hebrews 8:6,8,13). Why would you consider that to not be keeping His promises?

See above. It is the Mosaic / Sinai covenant that is being specifically addressed. That is why the writer of Hebrews goes to great lengths to explain how Yeshua is better than Moses, Aaron and the Priesthood, the Temple, the Torah, etc. Those are all part of and established by the Mosaic / Sinai covenant.

And many of the covenants outlined in the Tanakh were given by YHVH and sworn to by His name. They could only be broken if YHVH violated His sworn oath and profaned His name. The only one He intended to be of a limited nature was the Mosaic Covenant. That one was a two sided covenant. Israel broke it. The others are meant to remain in force. He will not let His Name be profaned and will not violate His oath. He is not Allah, who is capricious and can change his mind at will. To even suggest that He does act in this way is impugning the Name of YHVH. I am thankful that you and I are not in close proximity.

 

[jgr]

Considering that there are at least 5 covenants given by YHVH in the Tanakh, which one do you suppose was superseded by the New Covenant? All of them?

Jeremiah 31:31-32 (NKJV) “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

Best I can tell from this, Ol' Jere is referencing the Mosaic / Sinai Covenant. That leaves the Adamic Covenant, The Noahic Covenant, The Abrahamic Covenant, the David Covenant at least. For instance, if the Noahic Covenant is no longer valid, it might be wise to invest in some flood insurance even if one lives on top of Mt. Everest. If the Davidic Covenant is no longer in effect, the Yeshua has no claim to rule. If either of these covenants have been superseded by the New Covenant as you claim above, then either you or YHVH is a liar. I think you might have a clue who I will side with.



I can't help but get a chuckle when folks use Galatians 3 for a support text to say that there is no Jew now. It is clear in saying that while there is no Jew or Greek, male or female, etc that it is speaking in spiritual not physical terms. ala Hebrews 11. I have yet to find one person, who truly holds that there is neither male or female, have everyone in the congregation meeting strip to prove the point. To say that there is no Jew or Greek, male or female, etc in the physical realm is hyper literalism on steroids. And it makes one look extremely silly. The context is clearly meaning in a spiritual sense, within the Body of Messiah. The same as when Paul makes the point that all of Israel (physical) are not the true Israel (spiritual) of the Patriarchs. Paul likewise wishes he was cursed, if it would cause his brethren of the flesh, physical Israel, to repent. He delineates physical and spiritual Israel, but doesn't deny that physical Israel is still a valid entity. So while Paul does say within the Messiah there is neither Jew or Greek, he does still recognizes that there are physical Jews and Greeks.



See above. It is the Mosaic / Sinai covenant that is being specifically addressed. That is why the writer of Hebrews goes to great lengths to explain how Yeshua is better than Moses, Aaron and the Priesthood, the Temple, the Torah, etc. Those are all part of and established by the Mosaic / Sinai covenant.

And many of the covenants outlined in the Tanakh were given by YHVH and sworn to by His name. They could only be broken if YHVH violated His sworn oath and profaned His name. The only one He intended to be of a limited nature was the Mosaic Covenant. That one was a two sided covenant. Israel broke it. The others are meant to remain in force. He will not let His Name be profaned and will not violate His oath. He is not Allah, who is capricious and can change his mind at will. To even suggest that He does act in this way is impugning the Name of YHVH. I am thankful that you and I are not in close proximity.

Check your Bible. How many Old Testaments are there?

My Bible has one.

Not five.

Tell me if your Bible is any different.

The early Scriptural canonists knew what they were doing.

All of the promises and covenants in the Old Testament comprise the testamentary clauses and bequests in a legally-admissible will and testament. They are not individual independent wills and testaments. Christ did not have to die five times. He died “once for all”. (Hebrews 10:10).


And Christ is the Creator of all things, and the Heir of all things, and the Fulfillment of all the promises about Himself (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; 2 Hebrews 1:1,2; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Luke 24:25-27,44). That encompasses the Mosaic, Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, and the Davidic covenants. “Christ is all, and in all.”


Galatians 3 is exclusively spiritual in its perspective, as is the lens through which God views humankind. There are no ethnicities, genders, et al; in that lens. There are only those who are in Christ, and those who are not.


I see that you still refuse to allow God His right and privilege to update His own Will and Testament. Still convinced that His New Will and Testament, written in no less than the Blood of His Only Son; does not contain better promises than the old which it replaced. Still desperate to exhume the “old, decayed, vanished” (Hebrews 8:13) carcass and its “weak and beggarly elements” (Galatians 4:9).

Under His New Covenant, and in His mercy, God extends you that permission. Under the old covenant, which you're determined to resurrect, the outcome of covenant rejection would have been rather different (Hebrews 10:28).


You may have noticed the repetition of one word possibly more than any other, in the various citations above.

That word is "all". You need to come to understand its significance in God's New Covenant Plan for humankind. There are no exceptions to "all".

So,
“...Behold, I make all things new...” (Revelation 21:5)

And He does.

Whether or not you believe it.

 

[Copperhead]

Check your Bible. How many Old Testaments are there?

My Bible has one.

Not five.

Tell me if your Bible is any different.

Gladly!!

You are basing you assertion of the name "Old Testament" that man has called the collection of 39 books in it. But there are several very unique and distinct covenants contained within those 39 books.

The Adamic Covenant when God created Adam and Eve. Still in effect. About the only one that mankind has managed to adhere to.

The Noahic Covenant after the Flood event. Still in effect. If not, stock up on flood insurance as that rainbow in the sky after it rains doesn't mean anything and God is a liar.

The Abrahamic Covenant that God made with Abraham and reaffirmed with Isaac and Jacob. Still in effect. Even Paul affirms this one.

The Mosaic / Sinai covenant that God made with Israel after he brought them out of Egypt. Superseded by the New Covenant as per Jeremiah 31:31-32

The Davidic Covenant that God made with David that a Descendent of his, the Messiah, would occupy as king over Israel. This was confirmed again by Gabriel to Mary, Yeshua's mother. Still in effect.

That is 5 covenants right there. Some have argued that the Aaronic Covenant that God made with the priesthood line of Aaron is in play, but I left that out as it is debatable. The others are not.

Yeshua did not die to end any covenant. Yeshua Himself said that He did not come to do away with the Torah, but to fulfill it and that not one letter or even a decoration on a letter would pass away until all is fulfilled. There is still quite a bit of stuff yet to be fulfilled. He died to reconcile mankind to the Father, at least those who accept it. The New Covenant only replaced the Mosaic / Sinai covenant. The writers of the NT books affirm that as does Jeremiah, and Yeshua established it at the Passover of His death.

 

[jgr]

Gladly!!

You are basing you assertion of one OT on what man has called the collection of 39 books in it. But there are several very unique and distinct covenants contained within those 39 books.

The Adamic Covenant when God created Adam and Eve. Still in effect.

The Noahic Covenant after the Flood event. Still in effect.

The Abrahamic Covenant that God made with Abraham and reaffirmed with Isaac and Jacob. Still in effect.

The Mosaic / Sinai covenant that God made with Israel after he brought them out of Egypt. Superseded by the New Covenant.

The Davidic Covenant that God made with David that a Descendent of his, the Messiah, would occupy as king over Israel. This was confirmed again by Gabriel to Mary, Yeshua's mother. Still in effect.

That is 5 covenants right there. Some have argued that the Aaronic Covenant that God made with the priesthood line of Aaron is in play, but I left that out as it is debatable. The others are not.

Yes. And all of them fulfilled in and/or bequeathed to Christ.

"All the promises". "Heir of all things".

 

[Copperhead]

Ok, ok. jgr, I get it. God is a liar. Message received.

 

[jgr]

Ok, ok. jgr, I get it. God is a liar. Message received.

My God isn't. I don't know about yours.

 

[Copperhead]

That I have no doubt.

 

[Paidiske]

MOD HAT ON
This thread has had a small clean.
If you don't believe in a post-tribulation rapture,​

please don't post in this thread.​

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hello. I am Amil/Preterist post-trib/pre wrath.

As far as the unbiblical pre-trib view goes, didn't Jesus warn his followers they were going to be going thru tribulations?

Just my 2 cents worth.........

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

This was said pre-70AD:

Matthew 24:9
Then they shall be delivering ye up in to tribulation and shall be killing ye
and ye shall be being hated by all of the nations because of the Name of Me
Luke 21:12
“But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons<5438>.
You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.
=========================
Revelation 2:10 "tribulation 10 days"

Revelation 2:10
No yet thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering.
Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison<5438>,
that ye may be being tried.
And ye shall be having tribulation<2347> of ten days,
Be thou becoming faithful until death! and I shall be giving to thee the Crown of the Life.

Look at how much my bro PAUL suffered..........

Acts 9:16
“For I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake.”

2 Corinthians 11
22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? I am speaking like I am out of my mind, but I am so much more:
in harder labor,
in more imprisonments,
in worse beatings,
in frequent danger of death.
24 By Judeans five times forty minus one.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods,
once I was stoned,
three times I was shipwrecked. I spent a night and a day in the open sea.
26 In my frequent journeys, I have been in dangers of rivers
and to dangers of bandits,
in dangers from fellow race,
from the Gentiles,
in city and in wilderness,
in danger on the sea
and to dangers in false brothers,
27 in labor and toil and often without sleep,
in hunger and thirst,
and often without food, in cold and exposure.

1 Corinthians 4:
8 Already you have all you want. Already you have become rich. Without us, you have become kings. How I wish you really were kings, so that we might be kings with you.
9 For it seems to me that God has displayed us Apostles at the end of the procession, like prisoners appointed for death. We have become a spectacle to the whole world, to angels as well as to men.
10 We are fools for Christ, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You are honored, but we are dishonored.
11 To this very hour
we are hungry and thirsty,
we are poorly clothed,
we are brutally treated,
we are homeless.
12 We work hard with our own hands.
when we are vilified, we bless;
when we are persecuted, we endure it;
13 when we are slandered, we answer gently.
Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.

 

[BobRyan]

Members who chose to participate in this safe house should believe in the post-tribulation rapture. This thread is for discussing end time events and prophecy (Biblical) from a post-trib point of view. Fellowship posts from all members are welcome.

• This safe house thread is for those members who believe in the post-tribulation rapture.

• The safe house is for discussion and not for debate. Debate is defined as: "Engaging in argument by discussing opposing points."

• If a topic turns into a debate then staff will split the debate off into a new thread.

• Members who do not believe in the post-tribulation rapture may post in fellowship only.

• No posts from this safe house may be quoted in other threads or used to start discussion threads in the main Eschatology forum.

Does this include the post-trib pre-mill view where the literal millennium begins with the post-trib rapture of the saints taken by Christ at the 2nd coming to be with Him in heaven for the literal 1000 years?

"The first resurrection" described by John in Rev 20:4-5 being the resurrection of the saints - that we find in 1Thess 4 rapture and resurrection- and Christ takes all the saints to heaven to be with him as He states in Matthew 24.

Does that also fit the category for this safe house?

 

[Kevin Silva]

Please delete my extra posts. My internet is out of control.

Thanks,

Kevin

 

[Kevin Silva]

"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him." Rev. 13:7 (NASB).

"To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father." Col. 1:2 (NASB).

It is my view that the saints go through the tribulation and are persecuted by the Man of Sin. The saints are Christian.

There will be a great falling away from the faith when people learn this.

"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted." 2 Tim. 3:12.

Don't worry. All of God's elect will go to Heaven. It will be worth it.

Kevin

 

[BobRyan]

Members who chose to participate in this safe house should believe in the post-tribulation rapture. This thread is for discussing end time events and prophecy (Biblical) from a post-trib point of view. Fellowship posts from all members are welcome.

Post Trib rapture -- yes.

But how many kinds of post-trib rapture is this thread for?

 

[Bobber]

I got a problem. If we are going to go through the tribulation (which we are), and if it is going to happen very soon (which it is), then what is the point of the rest of life until then? I mean, for example, I like to make short movies, I like writing music, things like that, but I don't really feel like doing those things when I think about how, compared to the imminent threat of the tribulation, these things seem trivial, almost pointless. What's your opinion?

I was a Christian teenager in the late 70's and some of my friends expressed the same concerns you just have. Some felt sorrow for not believing they'd have any kids. The Lord was coming back too soon. Now they've got grand children and even great grand children. Point....yes have a sense that the Lord is coming back BUT never let it cause you to set aside your talents and goals. We might not know everything or be perfectly right about when the Lord returns.

 

[BobRyan]

"Where is the promise of his coming?" 2 Peter 3
"the time is delayed and every vision faileth" Ezek 12:22
Paul urged that people not get married if at all possible.... 2000 years ago.

So there is that.

There is also the "signs of the times" telling us "the end is near"

1. We are nearing completion of 6000 years of sin on earth, the 7th 1000 years may well be the Millennium.
2. Matthew 24 signs say we are right at the end.
3. the Rev 14 message of 3 angels - already going out to the whole world.
4. Matt 24 "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world and then shall the end come" - that is right upon us.