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Truth is, there's no point for me to find. I'm done.
Good.
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Truth is, there's no point for me to find. I'm done.
SeventyOne said:That's only one part of the equation. The Church is also given the rod of iron to rule with (Revelation 2:26-27). He is not the only one ruling with a rod of iron. ....
Davy said:You said that Child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron does not mean my Lord Jesus. I showed you from God's Word it does. End of argument.
Hey Fred,Any of the church would not rule with the rod without Jesus. The presence of Jesus ruling is the only way any will rule with him. And the child being taken up violently is not a description given in scripture passages.
The book of the Revelation is entirely with symbols, which gets neglected by some. So it should not be insisted that we should accept that a description in it corresponds exactly to a known reality. One should study the book prayerfully and even with hearing others, such as some speaking to this in their church, draw their own conclusions. In the end we will recognize meanings that are in it. It is not essential in our walk to know them all rightly beforehand, while none of it should be thought to take away our responsibilities in how we should live now.
Are there really seven Spirits of God? Does Jesus really have seven eyes? And does he have seven horns? Remember that numbers, as the frequently used number seven, are symbolic, not just an actual count of anything. So even trumpets are symbols, as other things in the book are.
Any of the church would not rule with the rod without Jesus. The presence of Jesus ruling is the only way any will rule with him. And the child being taken up violently is not a description given in scripture passages.
The book of the Revelation is entirely with symbols, which gets neglected by some. So it should not be insisted that we should accept that a description in it corresponds exactly to a known reality. One should study the book prayerfully and even with hearing others, such as some speaking to this in their church, draw their own conclusions. In the end we will recognize meanings that are in it. It is not essential in our walk to know them all rightly beforehand, while none of it should be thought to take away our responsibilities in how we should live now.
Are there really seven Spirits of God? Does Jesus really have seven eyes? And does he have seven horns? Remember that numbers, as the frequently used number seven, are symbolic, not just an actual count of anything. So even trumpets are symbols, as other things in the book are.
O.k., then tell me, has the following passage been fulfilled?
Hos.3
[1] Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.
[2] So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:
[3] And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.
[4] For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
[5] Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
And, the answer is, no.
Call it on hold, call it dispensationalism, call it what you want, but Israel has not returned, sought the LORD their God, David thier king, (in the Person of Jesus during the Mill. Kingdom,) nor the fear of the LORD.
And. . . notice, it happens in the latter days, (the last days.)
So, you are correct, their is only one plan of salvation, Jesus only, BUT, the Jews have not yet acknowledged him or his salvation.
The elect here is not the church, but Israel. Matt. 24 must be read in context. Jesus mentions the "who" of his discussion, THE FIG TREE. Who is that? Israel. NEVER in the N.T. is the church called his FIG TREE.
I agree. Our salvation from this present evil age, occurs when Christ returns for His church, on the last day of this evil present age. After His return everything is going to be changed.Using biblical facts only... You decide...
Jesus said, four times, the resurrection of the dead in Christ is "at the last day".- John 6:39,40,44,54
The Apostle Paul said... the resurrection of the dead and those believers whom are alive will be caught up (raptured) together to meet the Lord in the air.(1 Thess.4:16,17). Therefore, doesn't the "rapture" also happen at the last day since it's mentioned along with the resurrection of the dead in Christ?
Jesus said, Immediately after the (great) tribulation of those days (Matt.24:29), Jesus will be coming in the clouds of heaven (Matt.24:30), and He will gather together (those alive and dead believers) His elect from the Earth (Matt.24:31). Wouldn't this event also be at the last day, when Jesus returns, since it's happening after the Great Tribulation?
I've heard it said, that the Church is gone off the earth before the Great Tribulation because the Church is not mentioned after Revelation 4:1. But, the saints are mentioned in Revelation 13 and 14, during the Great Tribulation. Aren't the saints synonymous with the Church?
Hi dear friends! I am really excited to learn that here is a post tribulation thread. I could never speak to a christian who believes in the post trib rapture - there is no one around me. After studying the bible I came to the conclusion that the rupture must be after the tribulation.
In this sense I find it sad that there are 2 threads with opposite opinions. It is not about human opinions since I would prefer a pre trib rapture very much. In fact I am very scared of what is ahead of us. Probably the antichrist will rise in Germany where Hitler once ruled - and I would be right in the middle of the mess.
My desire is to write God's history not just survive. I feel so far away from that and I am looking forward to reading and being encouraged by your posts.
I accepted a pretrib rapture for years, never giving it much thought. The only option to a mid or post trib. Would be multiple resurrection separated by years. It just doesnt fit in my view, it includes everyone right at the point Christ returns.
Using biblical facts only... You decide...
Jesus said, four times, the resurrection of the dead in Christ is "at the last day".- John 6:39,40,44,54
The Apostle Paul said... the resurrection of the dead and those believers whom are alive will be caught up (raptured) together to meet the Lord in the air.(1 Thess.4:16,17). Therefore, doesn't the "rapture" also happen at the last day since it's mentioned along with the resurrection of the dead in Christ?
Jesus said, Immediately after the (great) tribulation of those days (Matt.24:29), Jesus will be coming in the clouds of heaven (Matt.24:30), and He will gather together (those alive and dead believers) His elect from the Earth (Matt.24:31). Wouldn't this event also be at the last day, when Jesus returns, since it's happening after the Great Tribulation?
I've heard it said, that the Church is gone off the earth before the Great Tribulation because the Church is not mentioned after Revelation 4:1. But, the saints are mentioned in Revelation 13 and 14, during the Great Tribulation. Aren't the saints synonymous with the Church?
I would like to tackle some of your assumptions.
Yes, the resurrection of the dead is at the last day, but what dead is being referenced.... dead righteous or dead unrighteous? And the "last day" must have already occurred, as the OT saints (notice... those are NOT the Church) were resurrected in Matthew 27. Many early Church writers who either knew the Apostles or disciples of the Apostles wrote that these resurrected saints were taken to the throne of God.
I would contend that it is very solid that the righteous dead will be resurrected and taken along with those righteous who are living, before the GT period and "last day", where both righteous (GT Saints who died) and unrighteous are resurrected and the latter goes into eternal punishment.
His "elect" that you mention from Matthew 24 may not be the Believers as we understand it. After all, who is God's elect?.....
Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me
Israel is the name God gave Jacob, so they are interchangeable terms for the same guy, who is the patriarch of the Hebrew tribes.
Same book, same author, same elect....
Isaiah 65:9 (NKJV) I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir of My mountains;
My elect shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there.
Even Paul in Romans considered his physical brethren, the Hebrews, God's elect. They are elect and beloved because of the Fathers (Patriarchs) of the Hebrew people.
Yes, believers are also God's elect, but they are not Israel, they are the Church. But since they have been removed prior to the GT period, the elect can also refer to the Hebrews who go thru the GT. Don't confuse election with salvation. Israel (all twelve tribes) is God's elect people, but not all of them are justified and saved. On the other hand, the Church is also the Elect of God, but in that case, only justified are part of the Church. Election simply means set apart for God's purpose. Who also is God's elect?....
Isaiah 42:1 (NKJV) “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
So we see Yeshua is God's Elect. Israel is God's Elect. And the Ekklessia (Church) is God's Elect. They are not the same entity, but they are all elect, or set apart to God.
"coming on the clouds of heaven" can also have the idea of the believers who were removed prior to the GT period who return with Him. Even the writer of Hebrews says that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. Cloud in the passage mentioning Yeshua's return may not mean the fluffy things we see floating in the sky.
Saints are indeed mentioned in Revelation after the Church has been removed. Again, in Matthew 27, saints were resurrected. They were called saints but they were not the church either as the Church had not even started till 49 days later!!! So one can be classified as a saint and not be part of the Church. Likewise, after the Church is taken up, those that come to faith in the Messiah during the GT period will be considered saints, but they are not part of the unique entity currently known as the Ekklesia or Church. All saints are equal.. justified by the Messiah. But not all saints are of the same group.