Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

ByTheSpirit

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whats awesome about this "safe house" is many believers from different theological backgrounds can all agree that the second most important event in scripture after the Crucifixion is the Post Tribulation return of the Lord...

I believe so firmly in this I refused to compromise for doctrinal conformity and lost my ministers credentials in the Assembly of God. Be strong! Our position is not readily or easily accepted amongst our brothers and sisters...

May the Father bless you all!
 
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sdowney717

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whats awesome about this "safe house" is many believers from different theological backgrounds can all agree that the second most important event in scripture after the Crucifixion is the Post Tribulation return of the Lord...

I believe so firmly in this I refused to compromise for doctrinal conformity and lost my ministers credentials in the Assembly of God. Be strong! Our position is not readily or easily accepted amongst our brothers and sisters...

May the Father bless you all!

Jesus lays it out time wise, after the distress of those days, He returns and then sends out the angels to gather us to Himself.

There is only one return of Christ when He comes for His bride (not brides, no secret coming for one bride, then a second coming for a second bride) to unite all things both in earth and in heaven.

They are HIS own elect on the earth and it is for their sakes He shortens those days. The rapture gathering occurs on the Day of the Lord. It also occurs after the revealing of the antichrist figure, 2 Thess 2.

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


This time is associated with powerful deceptions. The entire end time teaching is mostly a wreck, a disaster in churches. Because they do not read the scriptures, they are not submitted to God, they read stories about the end times. and that influences them to believe lies.
 
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sdowney717

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2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come.

Are you one of the 'brethren'? If so and Paul is writing this to the church here.
Paul was writing in his own time that this might happen but only when certain conditions occur, take place. Paul writes to this church to teach THEM about the GATHERING to JESUS, so it was something they might be expected to experience even back then at that time. They were not being taught of another earlier rapture which would have taken them out before all the awful tribulation distress of those days stuff is going to happen. this gathering is going to occur on and as the Day of Christ has come. And is the only rapture-gathering event that they will experience as Christ returns. Even Jesus speaks only of one gathering to him Matt 24.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I agree, just from the 2 Thes 2 passage the ENTIRE anything other than post trib falls apart.

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, (2 Thessalonians 2:1 NIV)

“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk from the city. (Acts 1:11, 12 NIV)

A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. (Zechariah 14:1, 4 NIV)

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. (Revelation 14:1 NIV)

ALSO!

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8 NIV)

A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls. I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. (Zechariah 14:1-3 NIV)

Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. (Revelation 16:16 NIV)

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords.

Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. (Revelation 19:11-16, 19-21 NIV)

So to finish.....

Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. (2 Thessalonians 2:1 NLT)

The Lord bless you!
 
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BABerean2

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Let us start with the facts. All American pastors taught that Christ would return for us at his Second Coming before Darby brought another version here in the 1860's. We know this because of the thousands of pages of commentary and sermons that are available. There is now a video available on YouTube which shows the origin of Dispensationalism, which has given us the newer doctrine. The title of the video is "Genesis of Dispensational Theology". Many of our Brothers and Sisters would be shocked to see how it all started. Share it with friends. We are to speak the truth in love. Test all things with the "Flesh Test". If your flesh likes the doctrine, it is probably not true.
 
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Let us start with the facts. All American pastors taught that Christ would return for us at his Second Coming before Darby brought another version here in the 1860's. We know this because of the thousands of pages of commentary and sermons that are available. There is now a video available on YouTube which shows the origin of Dispensationalism, which has given us the newer doctrine. The title of the video is "Genesis of Dispensational Theology". Many of our Brothers and Sisters would be shocked to see how it all started. Share it with friends. We are to speak the truth in love. Test all things with the "Flesh Test". If your flesh likes the doctrine, it is probably not true.
Nice post.....except this "flesh test" is very new to me......

B/C my flesh is very fond of the "grace" theory.....what of "grace" then?:prayer:
 
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BABerean2

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Brother, If you want to make me shed tears, just sing Amazing Grace. Since no one but Christ has keep the Law, it is our only choice to enable us to stand in the presence of a perfect and Holy God. However, Romans 6:1-2 makes it clear that we are not to use it as a license to continue willingly in sin. No. We will never be able to totally avoid sin. However, we are not to willingly choose sin. There are many sitting in church on Sunday mornings who may be in an adulterous relationship. It even happens to pastors. Is it OK for them to just say, "Well, I cannot help myself, because I am human." and continue in sin?
 
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Brother, If you want to make me shed tears, just sing Amazing Grace. Since no one but Christ has keep the Law, it is our only choice to enable us to stand in the presence of a perfect and Holy God. However, Romans 6:1-2 makes it clear that we are not to use it as a license to continue willingly in sin. No. We will never be able to totally avoid sin. However, we are not to willingly choose sin. There are many sitting in church on Sunday mornings who may be in an adulterous relationship. It even happens to pastors. Is it OK for them to just say, "Well, I cannot help myself, because I am human." and continue in sin?

Amen:thumbsup:

Christ Jesus took my punishment for every sin I have committed and every sin I will commit.
For His sacrifice, i am truly grateful. In this train of thought, I choose to love my neighbor as myself. Though I have become more cautious as I have aged, I still look for opportunities to serve His ppl and to "Go and make disciples".

If the pastor is committing adultery, his sin is no greater than my own when I gave my poor neighbor less than I COULD give. If I intentionally withhold my wealth, what little I have, while another who is less fortunate does not eat tonight, is my sin is greater than the pastor's? B/C in his heart, he is sorry for his sin, yet he might continue to lust, whereas I justify my greed out of contempt for what I consider to be laziness.

In the end......the Lord will reap punishment on me....temporal punishment in one form or another.....perhaps He will put on me diabetes, back pain, heart attacks or stroke. Perhaps He will have me out of work longer than I desire to be, and I will end up in a gutter for my greed. The pastor too will endure temporal punishment, losing the love of his wife, the respect of his children and his flock. God might reap upon him great depression and a loss of his job, and he might be next to me in the gutter since we have both chosen to continue in our sin.

None greater than the other in the flesh. His GRACE IS ENOUGH. It was in the beginning, and it will be until He has raised us back out of this flesh.:clap::clap:

HalleluJAH to the Lamb of God. Praise and exalt Him above all forever.:bow:
 
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BABerean2

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Pastor Spurgeon,

I am glad you are here. You are my favorite Baptist preacher. You were the one who stood up against the newer doctrines.

Remember that even with all of the snide and smart alec comments on this forum, those with opposite views are still our Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Use this forum to speak the truth.

When you have some time, look at the materials in the links below. If people will really look at this information, it will make a difference. Send them to others on your home and church email list, etc. and ask them to do the same. Prepare yourself to be labeled as a nut. The flesh likes the opposite point of view. Christ said that we will be persecuted.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

The History and Doctrine of Irvingism
by Edward Miller
https://archive.org/details/historydoctrines02milliala

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad, (Read pages 10-26)
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza’s book “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“ is available at…
PDF Files

Great Errors in Dispensational Theology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVAgf6O0YCU&list=PL5A70D7A3748A2A3B

Is the Gog Magog War the Battle of Armageddon ?
Gog of Magog - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy

Darby, J. N., Reflections (1829), Prophetic No. 1
Reflections upon the Prophetic Inquiry and the views advanced in it
In the paper above from 1829, Darby writes from the perspective of a Historicist, Amillennial in opposition to the book "Coming of Messiah" by Manuel Lacunza.

Voice of the Martyrs: Persecution- torture and murder happening now
https://www.letterofconfession.com/email-2.html

Rapture Theory: What Does God's Word Say About It?
http://www.biblestudysite.com/rapture.htm

The Jesuit Origins of Dispensationalism...
Pastor Mark Fitzpatrick, Arann Reformed Baptist Church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbWsk5mvby8

Rightly Dividing the Word, Pastor Mike Hoggard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaw-6n_L0pg

Greek word for “so” in Romans 11:26, G3779 ( sounds like, hoo-to)
It is an adverb of manner, not an adverb of time.
Greek Lexicon :: G3779 (KJV)


Pastor Sam Storms: Problems with Premillennialism
Sam Storms: Oklahoma City, OK > Problems with Premillennialism


Daniel 9:27, Who Confirmed the Covenant?
Who Confirmed The Covenant? | Christian Media Research


A Baptist speaks on the history of dispensationalism in America
The History of Dispensationalism in America | Founders

Preterism and Futurism
Papacy's effort to remove it's identification as Antichrist by Reformers
Futurist And Futurism Bible Prophecy


........................................................................................
A Short History of Dispensationalism in the U.S. and U.K. 1800 to 2014


Based on the older written sermons and commentaries available today, during the year 1800 protestant church bodies in the both the U.S. and the U.K. taught that the 1st Thess. Chapter 4 gathering of believers would occur at the beginning of Christ’s Second Coming. They interpreted the verses of 2nd Thess. 2:1-5 to mean the “man of sin”(antichrist) would be revealed before the gathering (rapture) of the Church by Christ. The 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 was believed to have ended after 490 years, which was within a few years of the crucifixion. The prophecy was believed to have included two future characters, the Messiah and the one who would come to destroy the sanctuary. The Roman army destroyed the sanctuary in 70A.D. under the leadership of General Titus. Some of the early commentators clearly indicated their belief that the prophecy had already been fulfilled within the 490 year period indicated by the angel Gabriel.

They were also of the belief that the land promise to the descendants of Abraham had been fulfilled based on the verses of Joshua 21:43-45. All other promises to the descendants of Abraham were considered fulfilled through the one seed of Galatians 3:16, which is Christ. The verse goes on to indicate it did not apply to more than one seed. In Romans Chapters 9, 10, and 11 the Apostle Paul taught that not all of Israel is Israel. This was understood to mean not all of the descendants of Jacob were to be part of faithful Israel. Romans 11 uses the illustration of a wild olive tree grafted into a cultivated olive tree to show gentile believers grafted in along with Jewish Christians as faithful Israel. In chapter 11 unbelieving Jews were described as the branches broken off. They could only be grafted back in through faith in Christ. It was also understood that the only way of salvation was faith in Christ which occurred before his return. Some used the parable of the bridegroom and virgins of Matthew Chapter 25 as evidence that the decision must be made before the bridegroom(Christ) arrives. A free online computer program titled “Esword” will allow verification of the older commentaries like those of Albert Barnes, Adam Clarke, and John Gill.

During 1812 a book titled, “The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty” was published in Spanish under the pseudonym of Ben Ezra a converted Jew. The actual author was Manuel Lacunza, a Jesuit priest. During the 1820’s Edward Irving, a Scottish minister, gained access to the book and came to value Lacunza’s concepts within the book. He then had Lacunza’s book translated into English. The English version was published in 1827 and included Irving’s Preliminary Discourse as his commentary of the book. Irving was teaching doctrine based on the book in 1826 at a conference in Albury.

Irving taught a number of concepts from Lacunza’s book at the Albury prophecy conference. He stated that some of the promises to the Jewish people had not yet been fulfilled. (Lacunza p. 336, 338) Lacunza had added the antichrist and a rebuilt temple to Daniel 9:27. (p.301) He stated at least 7 years would be needed for conversion of the Jews in the last days. (p. 316) He also stated the Jewish people would accept Christ as their messiah at his Second Coming. (p. 349) Irving used the term dispensation 13 times on page 63 of his Preliminary Discourse which accompanied Lacunza’s book. The term is only used 4 times in the King James version of the Bible.
Lacunza’s book “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“ is available at…
PDF Files

According to early members of the Plymouth Brethren, during 1830 a teenage girl named Margaret Macdonald reported a “vision” of a pretribulation gathering of believers. Margaret had been bedridden for some time. She wrote a letter to Irving reporting the details of her vision. The text of her “vision” is available from various sources. The Irvingites published the concept of a pretribulation gathering within the September 1830 edition of their publication known as, “The Morning Watch”. Verification is available at… http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf
Edward Irving incorporated this pretrib rapture into his earlier teachings from Lacunza’s book. Many today consider John Nelson Darby to be the “Father” of Dispensationalism, however it can be shown many of the key concepts were first taught by Edward Irving at the Albury conference. This is found in the text of Irving’s Preliminary Discourse which was printed as a part of the English edition of Lacunza‘s book in 1827.

During the late 1820’s John Darby had become ordained as a minister within the Anglican Church. Darby became disillusioned with the Anglican Church within a few years. According to Dispensationalist Dr. Charles Ryrie, Darby attended at least one of the Albury conferences. Edward Irving died in 1834. At some point Darby adopted Irving’s teaching and later became it’s greatest promoter. He had become a part of a group known as the Plymouth Brethren, although later friction within the group caused division into smaller groups. Darby brought Dispensationalism to the United States around the time of the American Civil War.

Dispensationalism teaches a distinct separation between Israel and the Church, as well as the unfulfilled promises to the Jews and the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Darby believed that both Old Testament and New Testament saints would be raptured together, however later Dispensationalists changed this. Most Dispensationalists now teach that the Old Testament saints will be resurrected at Christ’s Second Coming.
At some point Dispensationalists made an additional change to the interpretation of the 9th Chapter of Daniel. They believe the 490 years of the 70 weeks has not yet been completed. A gap (sometimes called a parenthesis or The Church Age) was placed between the 69th and 70th week of the 490 year prophecy. Dispensationalists believe God will deal again with Israel during the future 70th week ( 7 years), after the pretrib rapture of the Church. This also doubled the time of the tribulation period from 3 ½ years to 7 years, based on a comparison to the older commentaries. It is not clear if this change came from Lacunza’s book, Irving or Darby. However, it is an essential part of Dispensational Theology.

Dispensationalists state they use a more literal interpretation of scripture and insist that others spiritualize scripture more than is intended. They have also adopted the principle that Christians have always expected the any-moment return of Christ. This concept is known as “Imminence”.

One of the biggest changes in doctrine proposed by Dispensationalists is the idea that Jews and others who are present after the pretrib rapture of the Church will be given another chance at salvation, either during the 7 year tribulation period, or when Christ appears at his Second Coming. Most Christians before had only accepted the possibility of salvation on an individual basis, however Dispensationalists see the possibility of “National Salvation” for the Jewish people. They take this idea from Romans 11:26 “And so all Israel shall be saved…” This is to occur at some point in the future after the pretrib rapture of the Church. Earlier commentators had believed these verses referred to Jews being grafted back into faithful Israel through faith as indicated in Romans 11:23.

A pastor named C.I. Scofield incorporated Darby’s Dispensational teachings into the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible which was published and sold on a massive scale. When people found these notes written in their Bible, many accepted the newer doctrine. Scofield also proposed a plan which divided the history of the Bible into 7 time periods or “dispensations” commonly referred to as “economies” by Dispensationalists.

Dallas Theological Seminary was established in 1924, and taught the new doctrine to future pastors. Lewis Sperry Chafer the first president of Dallas Theological had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.

Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.



John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”
John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

During the last half of the 20th century authors such as Hal Lindsay and Tim LaHaye sold millions of copies of books and movies, based on the teachings of Dispensational Theology. The most popular were LaHaye’s “The Left Behind” series. Today many of these line the shelves of Christian homes and churches.

At present, many conservative church bodies throughout the U.S. have adopted some or most of the basic teachings of Dispensational Theology.

Very few Christians today know it all started with a book written by a Jesuit Priest and Edward Irving’s translation and commentary of the book or that the pretribulation rapture doctrine was first taught by Edward Irving during 1830, after a teenage girl claimed to have had a “vision“ of a pretrib rapture.

Please check this information yourself to verify it. The Body of Christ should always be willing to examine the source of any doctrine being taught within their church.
Does the doctrine come from God’s Word or does it come from men?



..............................................................................................

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

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karen4you

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]The False Pre-Trib Doctrine does not teach what the Bible really says ! Jesus has to remain with Father God until the restitution of all things or the Day of the Lord.[/FONT]​
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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](Psalms 110:1 KJV) A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](Acts 3:19-21 KJV) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; {20} And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: {21} Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica], which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

(Proverbs 2:21-22 KJV) For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. {22} But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

(Proverbs 10:30 KJV) The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.
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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]The False Pre-Tribulation Doctrine can cause you to fall because you will not have been taught to have the strong faith you will need to overcome what is coming upon our world.[/FONT]​
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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](Mark 13:11-27 KJV) But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. {12} Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. {13} And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. {14} But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: {15} And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: {16} And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. {17} But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! {18} And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. {19} For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. {20} And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. {21} And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: {22} For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. {23} But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. {24} But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, {25} And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. {26} And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. {27} And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, {2} That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. {3} Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]You can't fall away unless you have already been a part of something! The man of Sin, the Anti-christ, must be revealed before Jesus returns![/FONT]​
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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](2 Peter 3:3-14 KJV) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, {4} And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. {5} For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: {6} Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: {7} But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. {8} But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. {9} The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. {10} But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. {11} Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, {12} Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? {13} Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. {14} Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. [/FONT]​

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karen4you

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I'm finding it increasingly difficult to get through to pre-trib believers. Every post-trib point I raise doesn't get through to them because they believe the pre-trib so much they are unwilling to accept that they might be wrong. Are we not suppose to come to scripture, without any thoughts to inject into the scripture, just reading it as it reads?

If we give the Bible to a new Christian who has no influence of any kind and they read all the scriptures about the end times and about Jesus coming back, they will never come to the conclusion that there are two events (rapture + second coming). This is man's teaching, not God's. I know this because it happened to me. It was when I was told there were two events that I could "see" two events, but after years of study, I eventually realized it wasn't what I saw at all, it was what they told me to see in scripture.

The one argument I run into alot with pre-tribbers is the "falling away" in Thessalonians. They say this *should* be translated "departure"... even so, it would be a departure from the faith, not a physical removal from the earth. Even our Lord prayed that we not be taken from the world. The only other time this Greek word for "falling away" is used is in Acts when the people "forsake" the teachings of Moses. It's clearly an apostasy. They say it should read departure as in removal from the world because it comes from the root word for departure, but if you apply that to Acts, it doesn't make sense and they totally ignore what Jesus prayed!

It just boggles my mind that when the truth is presented with no way around it, the still try to twist the scripture to make it fit their beliefs.

Another point is the FIRST resurrection. I was told a few days ago that this is done in "phases". Really? Where does the Bible say that and again, if a new Christian reads the Bible, would he/she come to the conclusion of "phases" of the FIRST resurrection? When I said, "don't you see? Pre-trib cannot just read scripture for what it says, it has to inject something else into it to make it fit"... they left the conversation with no response.

I guess at the end of it all you cannot make them see unless they are willing to remove the "pre-trib" glasses. You can plant seeds of truth and pray for them.

How do you think it will affect pre-tribbers when the anti-christ is revealed and they are all still here? When the mark is being put on people and they are still here? When he is beheading Christians and they are still here?

I imagine it is going to devastate many of them. Why do they cling to the pre-trib rapture view so much? Do you think they are afraid to suffer and die? I'm afraid to! But I know that I must be willing to lay down my life for Christ, as He did for me and I know He will strengthen me to do so.

I like what I read. "Do you think they are afraid to suffer and die? My goodness, I have been believing pre-trib because the masses were so convincing to me...Wow, maybe that is the big deception.:idea: I dunno.

Last night before going to bed, I felt such a sadness. My heart was heavy. I have been studying some post trib views and scriptures and I felt like an idiot because I was wasting so much time on the "Soon Rapture". Kinda like IE: Feeling guilty that I was so selfish to think that God would snatch us up anytime now. I'm still half asleep...lol

Still have a lot to learn. This post was good for me. Thx Sis in Christ.:)
 
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Belly Rumble

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My first post.....this is so exciting....ok, it is actually pretty cool. I am a Post Tribber. To be more specific, I am a Pre 7th Bowler. kinda sorta. I believe that the Rapture isn't until the Second Coming and It won't be until all of the nations' armies, commanders, and representatives have arrived in Judea. I also believe that Zechariah chapters 12, 13, & 14 will repeat themselves. Jesus will return just as Jerusalem has fallen. 50% of Jerusalem will be led away captive over the Trumpet Judgments period. 40% will die due to one reason or the next. 10% will escape through the Mount of Olives split that Jesus will make when WE come down to earth. They will go to Bethany two miles east of Jerusalem. The Day of His Fierce Anger (Wedding Day) is only 24 hours and it starts at (Evening Time it Happens) per Zechariah 14 & Isaiah 17. God Bless all.
 
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BABerean2

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The following excerpts come from the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" written by a Jesuit priest named Manuel Lacunza. After Lacunza died, Edward Irving gained access to the book. Irving had it translated into English and added his commentary to the work. He then had it published in 1827.

Irving taught doctrine from the book at the Albury Conferences. After Irving's death in 1834, John Nelson Darby adopted the doctrine and later brought it to the United States around the time of the Civil War. C.I. Scofield incorporated the doctrine into his famous Reference Bible, which was widely published. Since that time the doctrine has overtaken most evangelical church bodies in the United States.

Very few Christians today know the true origin of the doctrine.


...........................................................................................


The book starts with deception by hiding the true identity of the author. It was written by a Jesuit priest (Lacunza) not a converted Jew (Ben-Ezra).
THE
COMING OF MESSIAH
IN
GLORY AND MAJESTY
BY
JUAN JOSAFAT BEN-EZRA,
A CONVERTED JEW

(Title Page)

………………………………...................................................
Restoration of National Israel

“The restoration of the Jewish nation, to be again the Church of God, and their reestablishment in their own land, to be the head of nations…” (Irving page 9)

………………………………..................................................
Irving was teaching the new doctrine before 1827.

“I have begun the preliminary discourse by giving an exposition of the doctrine which I have been teaching;…” (Irving page 10)

………………………………...................................................
Comments show Irving’s value of Lacunza’s book

“About three or four years ago, a clergyman of the church of England, whose name, if I might mention it, would prove that he was worthy to be employed by God in this ministry and whose labours for the consolation temporal and spiritual of suffering Spaniards and suffering Spain, perhaps commended him to God as worthy to bring to Britain this Spanish prize, more precious than any galleon which was ever carried into a British port; …” (Irving pages 11,12)

“So that it appeared that the great work among the divines on the continent, written by one Lacunza a Jesuit, was the same work which was laid upon my table without any information concerning it, except that it was written by Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra; but of which God had given me the discernment to perceive that it was the master work of one of his most gifted servants
(Irving page 14)

“Perceiving well that my worthy master Ben-Ezra had in his own right nothing to expect but the most vehement abuse and ridicule of his opinions, and, in my company, still more I weighed well how I might obtain for him a fair hearing from the Church which has become review-ridden to a most alarming degree: and, having well meditated this matter and besought the guidance of the Lord, I was directed to send a goodly portion of the work, when printed, to the ministers and members of the Church of Christ, who should seem to me the most honourable, simple-minded, and single-eyed before the Lord; in order that the blasphemers of fair and honest truth might be prevented from prejudicing the easy, drowsy, luke-warm Church against the best gift which hath been offered to her in these latter times.” (Irving page 15)

……………………………….....................................
States Christ did not fulfill all of the promise

“For if they spiritualized away a part, I should insist upon spiritualizing away the other part; in which case we would have and could have no real Messiah: and if they insist for the literal interpretation of a part, I would insist for the literal interpretation of the other part, which their Messiah hath not fulfilled, and which they do not expect him to fulfil; and in either case I would defeat them. I say this unnatural position of looking backward has deprived the church of the use even of those prophecies which have received a partial fulfilment, but still look forward to a perfect accomplishment; while of by far the greatest part of the prophecy it hath deprived her of the use and service altogether, and made them not only sealed and unprofitable, but really injurious and pernicious to the faith of her own children. “ (Irving page 52)

………………………………............................................
Irving uses “Dispensational” terminology.

“Of all these views Concerning the prophetic office of Christ and the prophetic character of his word, I regard his discourse to Nicodemus to be a most remarkable confirmation, wherein he not only showeth the instance of the cross under the emblem of the brazen serpent, and the work of the Spirit under the water-purifications of the law, but asserteth generally that the new birth of the Spirit and the whole spiritual life thence flowing, and our present spiritual dispensation and church, are but a part of the earthly things. The honest yet blinded Israelite came to inquire of our Lord concerning his glorious kingdom, who postponed the subject for one more immediate and more important, opening to him the spiritual meaning and spiritual promise of the earthly dispensation, which had begun with Moses, and was now arrived at the second stage of its growth, for which the word of the prophets and the dispensations of divine providence had been diligently preparing the way; against which the spiritual pride and carnal security of the Jewish rulers had been as diligently blocking up the way: wherefore it came not unto them, but passed by on the other side, and went unto the Gentiles, leaving them outcast of heaven and earth. By this high authority we are informed that our present spiritual dispensation which is wont to be interpreted as complete in itself, without any bud or promise of another, is as much preparatory to another, as was the Mosaic, which the Jews also thought perfect in itself: or rather, to speak more exactly, the dispensation from Abraham to the present time is one dispensation, which is incomplete and inexplicable but by the belief of another dispensation of glory about to follow. Our Lord here expressly declareth to Nicodemus, that all which he taught him, concerning the regeneration of the Spirit, and his own lifting up, and the light unto the Gentiles, was a part of the earthly things, and no part of the heavenly things; or in other words, that the spiritual dispensation under which we live is but the unfolding and completing of the ritual and prophetic dispensation, and can no more be separated from it, than the exposition can be separated from the text, or the resolution from the perplexed riddle.
It is manifest from our Lord’s discourse, that the spiritual dispensation to which he introduced the Jewish ruler, pertaining to the earthly things which were to be seen and known at that time in the Jewish dispensation, as the living countenance and form are to be seen through the veil which covers them. For there can be no doubt that Moses was but Christ under the veil, and the law was but the holiness of the Spirit written upon stones. The veil was taken off the face of Moses by the Prophet like unto Moses, and the gospel was discovered to be beneath it. By the coming of the Spirit the tables of stone were broken, and the writing was transferred to the fleshly tables of the heart. Christ’s incarnation completed the prophetic part of the dispensation, and sealed up the vision and the prophecy; his life fulfilled the law; and as by one man’s transgression the curse came upon us, so by one man’s obedience the curse was taken off; his death finished and accomplished the sacrifice for iniquity, and brought in an universal righteousness. By his resurrection he spoiled death, and the grave, and corruption; and by his ascension up on high, he became the High-Priest of his church to procure the forgiveness of their sins, and to shed down abundantly the gifts of righteousness and peace, to become the providence of the world, and the true King in Jeshurun. These things were all contained in the former half of the dispensation, the semblance of them appeared through the covering of the ceremonial law, the spirit of them, …” (Irving page 63)

……………………………….............................................
Progressive Revelation

“If, then, it be true, as the revealing angel declared unto John, that the Spirit of
prophecy is but the testimony of Jesus, the church should be prepared to expect, (making due allowance for the different ages in the progress of revelation,) and she should seek to find in the prophets to whom the word of the Lord came, a like Spirit, and a like manner of expressing it, to that which is found in the blessed Lord himself, and in the holy apostles.” (Irving pages 65 and 66)

……………………………….............................................
Irving gives the details of the Albury Conference held in 1826.

“Having said so much, I think it to be my duty further to state the godly order and arrangement according to which the Albury conference, concerning the second advent, was conducted: for to this, under God, I attribute in no small degree the abundance of the blessings with which our souls were made glad. We set apart a day for each subject, and resolved to give no more than one day to each; and as we were but six free days assembled, having met on the Thursday and parted on the Friday of the week following, we joined the fourth and the seventh subjects together, conceiving them to be closely connected with one another.” (Irving page 124)

………………………………..............................................
Doctor Joseph Wolff, a converted Jew, was invited to the Albury Conference.

“No appeal was allowed but to the scriptures, of which the originals lay before us, in the interpretation of which, if any question arose, we had the most learned eastern scholar perhaps in the world to appeal to, and a native Hebrew, I mean Joseph Wolff. In this way did every man proceed to lay out the nature and the ground of his conviction, which was done with so much liberty and plentifulness, and mutual respect and reverence of the Holy Word, as much to delight our souls.”

“Such were the six days we spent under the holy and hospitable roof of Albury house, within the chime of the church bell, and surrounded by the most picturesque and beautiful forms of nature; but the sweetest spot was that council room where I met the servants of the Lord, the wise virgins waiting with oil in their lamps for the bridegroom, and a sweeter still was that secret chamber where I met in the Spirit my Lord and master whom I hope soon to meet in the flesh.” (Irving page 125)
 
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BABerean2

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Future temple in Jerusalem implies interpretation of Daniel 9:27

“If it is a material temple built with hands, we return and pray to be informed what temple it may be? They reply, the very temple of Jerusalem, seeing in St. Paul’s time, there was no other material temple of God in the whole earth. But before passing to any other reflection, it is to be believed that St. Paul did not speak here of that individual temple which in his time was standing, otherwise he would have proved a bad prophet, because he could not be ignorant that that very temple of God was shortly to be destroyed, according to the prophecy in the ninth chapter of Daniel, which is very clear, and also the prophecy of Christ himself, who said, speaking of the temple, “there shall not be left one stone upon another which shall not be thrown down,” Matt. xxiv. 2. Wherefore if the apostle spake of the temple of Jerusalem, it is indubitable that he spake of another temple still future, and what is that? It is, they say with great formality, that which Antichrist shall build when he establisheth his court in Jerusalem.” (Lacunza page 301)

“And whence is this knowledge derived? We know that there are no other archives from whence information of the future can be drawn, save the revelation contained in the Holy Bible. In what passage then is this notice to be met with? In this very passage, haply of St. Paul, after it hath been understood and accommodated to that view of the subject? It will hardly be believed, yet true it is, that there is not another passage pointed to, or which can be pointed to, because there are not any such in all the Holy Bible: but there are many which assert quite the contrary. Look at this which is worth a thousand, in the ninth chapter of the prophet Daniel, who speaking of Messiah’s death and its results, hath this, “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” If the desolation of Jerusalem and her temple is to continue until the consummation and the end, at which time shall Antichrist build the city and the temple which the Romans have desolated? If before the consummation and the end, he will falsify the prophecy, and this were indeed one of his greatest acts of prowess. If after, then, shall it be still a greater prowess, as he must escape from hell in order to build the temple and the city. See you not, Sir, with your eyes the hypothesis and its inconclusiveness?” (Lacunza page 301)

……………………………….......................................
Implies possible “gap” in scripture of two thousand years

“I am very far from resisting this small violence, or of raising a dispute about words. The sense which they here give of the word immediately, would be natural and obvious enough, were there not a most weighty interest at stake, and did the doctors not declare to us a little more of their mind: if they did not tell us what it is they really intend by this economy; if their expression, not much after, were absolute or only relative; if it signified a few days, or a few hours, or signified a little time, compared with another great period; for example, a thousand or two thousand years; but in reality they do not leave us in such uncertainty. If the not much after be absolute, we shall have the simple and natural idea that there will not intervene between the end of the tribulation, and the coining of the Lord, time sufficient for extraordinary events. But if this not much after, be relative, then that time may be enlarged as much as they please, and there will be no setting limits to how much the immediately in the text really implies; which in my view of it is the very thing intended, and, to me, as appears, the whole of the mystery. If not, for what end change the word immediately, which is so definite, into the words shortly, quickly, not much after, which are not so definite. The space of time which these words must signify, in the mind of the doctors, cannot be so short, as not to be sufficient to contain with ease, the many and the great events which they intend to include in it. Behold some of the principal ones, in addition to those which were pointed out in the preceding section.” (Lacunza page 316)

………………………………........................................
States seven years are needed for conversion of the Jews.

“There shall be time, in the fourth place, for those events of which I have spoke above, that is, for the conversion of the Jews, and likewise for the gathering together and consuming of all the armies of Gog, which cannot take less time than seven years, according to the prophecy: and if these seven years signify a great and indeterminate number of years, so much the better, for so much the more time will it be necessary to allow. And so, my friend, you have the whole mystery deciphered. You see where this pausing upon immediately, shortly, soon, not much after, terminates.” (Lacunza page 316)

………………………………........................................

Unfulfilled promise

“It is to say generally and with little explanation, that the promises of God made to the Jews, especially those great and extraordinary promises, which till now have not been fulfilled, were not absolute but conditional; and therefore have not been accomplished, because the Jews on their part have failed to fulfil the condition.” (Lacunza page 336)

………………………………........................................

“THE bounds of the land of promise marked off in this prophecy, are doubtless, somewhat more ample than the children of Israel ever occupied; and yet they are precisely the same with those which we find expressed in the authentic writing of the gift which God made to our holy and venerable father Abraham, as clearly appeareth by these words: “In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:” Gen. xv. 18.” (Lacunza page 338)

……………………………….............................................
Suggests all Jews will be saved in the end-time

“Jerusalem, saith Christ, shall be trodden down of the nations until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled; that is, until the end of the world, or some short while before. When? When Antichrist, king and Messiah of the Jews, and universal monarch of the whole world, shall build anew that city, and plant in it the court of his universal empire. The blindness of Israel, saith the apostle, must endure until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. When this fulness hath entered in, or the time of the nations are concluded, then all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, that is, (continue the interpreters) Israel shall be saved, a little while before the end of the world, after the death of their false Messiah. Oh that it were possible entirely to close this door or aperture, and take away for ever this ordinary escape! What good fruits might not thence result to the true and plain understanding of so many and such weighty prophecies(Lacunza page 349)

……………………………….............................................

All underlining has been added. Bold type has been added in some selections.
Comments in Blue are mine. All quotes are from the online 2000 edition of book “Coming of Messiah…” by Manuel Lacunza. http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/prophetic/lacunza-intro.html

 
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BABerean2

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“Jerusalem, saith Christ, shall be trodden down of the nations until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled; that is, until the end of the world, or some short while before. When? When Antichrist, king and Messiah of the Jews, and universal monarch of the whole world, shall build anew that city, and plant in it the court of his universal empire. The blindness of Israel, saith the apostle, must endure until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. When this fulness hath entered in, or the time of the nations are concluded, then all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, that is, (continue the interpreters) Israel shall be saved, a little while before the end of the world, after the death of their false Messiah.”

Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty by Manuel Lacunza, page 349


Lacunza’s book “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“ is available at…
PDF Files


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418
 
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billvelek

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Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ and the Holy and Blessed Trinity! I am new in this forum as well as to the meaning of labels regarding eschatology (preterist, amillenialist, dispensationist, etc.), and so I'm trying to find my way to the correct forum(s) where I would find common beliefs. I intend to go back and read this entire thread, but first I want to make certain that this aligns with my beliefs.

It was suggested to me in reply to a thread I started yesterday, that I am a "partial preterist", which I'm not sure exactly what that fully means. So I want to start simple and it looked to me like this thread is the first step because I believe in the POST-tribulation rapture. I think that would be the easiest dividing point for me to use.

If I understand things correctly, I believe that the 'rapture' will occur on the great 'Day of the Lord' -- the exact same day as the Wrath of Almighty God (wrath being different from mere tribulations) and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, when His bride (His church) will rise to greet Him in the sky.

However, I'm still trying to sort and understand things like the millenium; I'm not sure whether "millenium" is meant literally as exactly 1,000 years or if it just figuratively represents a long undefined period, and I believe that the millenial reign of Christ is NOT occurring right now.

The person who told me that I'm a partial-preterist indicated that the amillenial (NO millenium) view is the orthodox view, but I'd like to discuss that as one of my first questions in this forum -- once I find out where I'm supposed to do that.

But it would seem to me, despite that I'm new and don't know my way around yet, that every question/discussion can't be included in a "safe-house" which is merely just a thread; it would seem more practical to me if the three categories of safe-houses were, in fact, sub-forums in which more specific questions could be discussed within a 'safe-house' forum. I say that because I really like the idea of being more able to keep the discussion about the millenium rather than drifting into discussions about pre- and mid- versus post-tribulation rapture. Any guidance will be appreciated.

Here is one of my partners; I don't let him write too often because he makes a lot of mistakes:

358445-albums6093-51624.jpg


Your brother in Christ,

Bill Velek
 
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BABerean2

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Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ and the Holy and Blessed Trinity! I am new in this forum as well as to the meaning of labels regarding eschatology (preterist, amillenialist, dispensationist, etc.), and so I'm trying to find my way to the correct forum(s) where I would find common beliefs. I intend to go back and read this entire thread, but first I want to make certain that this aligns with my beliefs.

It was suggested to me in reply to a thread I started yesterday, that I am a "partial preterist", which I'm not sure exactly what that fully means. So I want to start simple and it looked to me like this thread is the first step because I believe in the POST-tribulation rapture. I think that would be the easiest dividing point for me to use.

If I understand things correctly, I believe that the 'rapture' will occur on the great 'Day of the Lord' -- the exact same day as the Wrath of Almighty God (wrath being different from mere tribulations) and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, when His bride (His church) will rise to greet Him in the sky.

However, I'm still trying to sort and understand things like the millenium; I'm not sure whether "millenium" is meant literally as exactly 1,000 years or if it just figuratively represents a long undefined period, and I believe that the millenial reign of Christ is NOT occurring right now.

The person who told me that I'm a partial-preterist indicated that the amillenial (NO millenium) view is the orthodox view, but I'd like to discuss that as one of my first questions in this forum -- once I find out where I'm supposed to do that.

But it would seem to me, despite that I'm new and don't know my way around yet, that every question/discussion can't be included in a "safe-house" which is merely just a thread; it would seem more practical to me if the three categories of safe-houses were, in fact, sub-forums in which more specific questions could be discussed within a 'safe-house' forum. I say that because I really like the idea of being more able to keep the discussion about the millenium rather than drifting into discussions about pre- and mid- versus post-tribulation rapture. Any guidance will be appreciated.

Here is one of my partners; I don't let him write too often because he makes a lot of mistakes:

358445-albums6093-51624.jpg


Your brother in Christ,

Bill Velek

Brother Bill,

Go up to the top of the first page you posted to here and spend some time looking at the links that I provided. They contain many hours of research trying to find the truth, just like you are doing.

Regarding the millennium, there are good people that hold to the different views.
Read the paper in the link on "Is the Gog/Magog War the Battle of Armageddon?"
If they are one in the same and the Gog/Magog war is at the end of Rev. chapter 20 it may help you understand the amill perspective.

Be prepared to have thick skin on this forum. Some here will resort to name-calling and personal attacks if you dare to question their doctrine.
 
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