Popes and understanding infallible and magisterial authority

chevyontheriver

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And I am sure there are many exceptions over the years...
Yes, there have been some really bad popes. Ones that actually rival the worst in televangelists. But that has only a little to do with the thread as posted by the OP.
 
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chevyontheriver

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2/3 the world lives in poverty millions starving to death many children many are Catholics while the Vatican has assets of 15 billion the largest land owner in the world .and they claim to represent Jesus ? who commanded us to " Feed my sheep ! "
Look at the wealth of Washington DC and they can't even provide for all of the citizens within that city. Look at the wealth of New York City and the slums of New York City. They could, I suppose, sell the Vatican off to the Saudis so they could turn it into a mosque. Otherwise, who could or would buy it?
 
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Athanasias

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Quite simply, no.

Sister Gracia Singh said "The Pope is infallible when he confirms a Truth of the Church in Charity to the Church." But in fact, when the Pope is speaking ex cathedra, anything he says becomes the truth, for Catholics, even when he defines a new doctrine. Furthermore, the consent of the church is not necessary to the process. That's what my lengthy quote of the actual dogma says.
That is an incorrect understanding of infallibility. Catholics do not hold to what you understand. This does NOT mean that what the Pope says "Becomes" true. The Pope cannot make black white by declaring it. It is not like the concept of the mormon prophet. The Pope cannot make an untruth a truth. The Pope cannot infallibly create truth by his office. Rather the Pope is protected by the Holy Spirit from erring at certain times in certain ways when he defines and declares certain truths much like the High Priest in the old covenant. Truth is not created by man(the Pope) it is given by God in divine revelation in scripture and tradition(2 Thess 2:15) and discovered by the Church and them formally promulgated.

If you read the book I listed it will go over some of this.
 
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Radagast

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That is an incorrect understanding of infallibility.

I was paraphrasing the official dogma from Vatican 1:

"Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.

So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema."


That is, definitions made ex cathedra by the Pope are of themselves infallibly true, simply because the Pope stated them ex cathedra, and the Pope is infallible when speaking that way.
 
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chevyontheriver

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That is, definitions made ex cathedra by the Pope are of themselves infallibly true, simply because the Pope stated them ex cathedra, and the Pope is infallible when speaking that way.
You are talking past each other.
 
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Athanasias

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I was paraphrasing the official dogma from Vatican 1:

"Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.

So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema."


That is, definitions made ex cathedra by the Pope are of themselves infallibly true, simply because the Pope stated them ex cathedra, and the Pope is infallible when speaking that way.
What you said was what the Pope says "Becomes true" and that is not what the church teaches or how catholics understand this.

This is why you need to listen to this link I posted or read the book on how the Church understands this.

Again just because the Pope has authority to speak and be protected by the charism of infallibility This does NOT mean that what the Pope says "Becomes" true. The Pope cannot make black white by declaring it. It is not like the concept of the mormon prophet. The Pope cannot make an untruth a truth. The Pope cannot infallibly create truth by his office. Rather the Pope is protected by the Holy Spirit from erring at certain times in certain ways when he defines and declares certain truths much like the High Priest in the old covenant. Truth is not created by man(the Pope) it is given by God in divine revelation in scripture and tradition(2 Thess 2:15) and discovered by the Church and them formally promulgated.

If you read the book I listed it will go over some of this.
 
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