Pope saves babies from limbo

[kopilo]

I believe babies like all other humans are given a choice when they die. Their baptismal status is relatively irrelevant considering no one can get to heaven but through Jesus.

It needs to be a choice not an action, clean the inside of the cup so that the outside will be clean.

 

[beechy]

I believe babies like all other humans are given a choice when they die. Their baptismal status is relatively irrelevant considering no one can get to heaven but through Jesus.

It needs to be a choice not an action, clean the inside of the cup so that the outside will be clean.

What choice do babies have to make when they die?

 

[HisWordIsMySword]

The devil has deceived many into believing hell does not exist. And those who live in sin desire to believe there is not a hell, for it makes closing the eyes to sleep, allot less frightening.

For to close the eyes and not to know if they will open again can be frightening and when you reveal to the lost that all who die in their sins will go to the place known as death and hell, it makes closing the eyes much more frightening.

So it is easier to pretend hell does not exist if one hopes for a goodnites sleep. Yet, regardless if one says they don't believe hell exists. For deep within them, they know the truth. They only choose to deceive themselves.

For the creation can choose to deny the Creator, but to deny the Creator and to not believe in the Creator is now the same thing.

To deny the Creator is to say one does not believe in God, but yet it is impossible for the creation knows it was created and that it was created by the Creator.

So in denying God, man chooses to not follow God so that he can follow his own ways, to live a life of sin.

 

[HisWordIsMySword]

As for a reply to the original thread.

Do not be dismayed. Children are innocent in the eyes of God.

It is sin and awareness of the law that reveals our sins that condem us and make us guilty of death.

Children are ignorant to the law and are not held accountable until they can understand the law.


So when a child dies, his soul goes to be with the Father.


I find it interesting though that this Pope has made such a decision. It goes against centuries of Popes who believe in limbo.

Let it be known that the place known as limbo was the Bosom of Abraham. And this place has ceased to exist since the resurrection of Jesus Christ. For he went into the lower parts and set the righteous dead free from the hold of the devil. For all who died and were seen as righteous prior to the resurrection were held prisoner in death, in the place known as hell and death until their freedom was purchased by the blood of the lamb. And at that time, Jesus took the keys of death and hell and set the captives free.

Praise God. What a wonderful and loving God who would send his Son to die, so that we may live.


So now the words of our Lord make sense when he says, he who believes in me will never die. We all die in the flesh. He was not referring to the flesh, he was referring to the soul. So when those who die in Christ die in the flesh, his words are fulfilled in that they were not cast in death and hell, but remain alive by going to be with him in glory.

That is why when he says, he who believes in me, though he be dead, yet shall he live. We all must face physical death, but those who die in Christ, though they are dead, their souls do not die. Their souls are with Christ. And will return with him on the day of resurrection. 1 Thess. 4:14

 

[beechy]

Children are ignorant to the law and are not held accountable until they can understand the law.


So when a child dies, his soul goes to be with the Father.

At what age can a child understand the law completely enough to be held eternally accountable for his sins?

 

[uberd00b]

So basically these guys had it wrong for 800 years (at least)?

And they're only NOW just catching on to the injustice of the matter?

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

The article doesn't make it clear how unbaptized babies are supposed to get to Heaven when the Catholic Church still teaches that baptism is the only way to remove Original Sin, and that no one bearing the stain of sin can enter Heaven.

The Church doesn't actually definitely say that baptism is the only way to remove the stain of original sin. It says that this is the only ordinary way, the only way by which we on earth can be certain that God is removing the guilt. The Church entrusts all those who die without baptism into the mercy of God, and teaches that there are other (extraordinary) ways in which God's Grace and Mercy can save an individual.

Wow...I actually had to think about that before I typed it. I see the old party line is finally starting to fade from my memory. Now, if only I could forget the entire Rosary in Latin...

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

So basically these guys had it wrong for 800 years (at least)?

And they're only NOW just catching on to the injustice of the matter?

The limbo of children was never an official dogma of the Church as it has not been believed 'everywhere, always and by everyone.' It was not explicitly defined by Councils or Popes, nor implicitly taught by the consensus of the faithful and the universal teaching of the Bishops.

It was simply the speculation of some theologians. Also, it didn't actually say children went to hell or a place of suffering. Rather, it said they went to somewhere on the outskirts of heaven, where they didn't experience the supernatural goodness and happiness of the Beatific Vision of God, but experienced natural happiness.

Curse my inability to forget Catholic theology!!

 

[levi501]

At what age can a child understand the law completely enough to be held eternally accountable for his sins?

when they're able to do long division.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

when they're able to do long division.

Cool! I can do what I like and never be held accountable. If I recall correctly what long division actually is, I never got my head around it.

 

[MoonlessNight]

As has been stated Limbo was always a theological conjecture at best. Granted one that stuck around for a while and which a lot of people bought into, but it's never been a point of dogma. So the fact that the Pope stated that Limbo isn't that likely and that other views on what happens to babies after death should be considered (which is essentially what happened, though you wouldn't know it from the article) is far from a revision of church teachings, and certainly isn't anything like magically changing the afterlife like the article implies (and by implies I mean nearly outright states in the first sentence) that it is.

 

[HisWordIsMySword]

At what age can a child understand the law completely enough to be held eternally accountable for his sins?

Only God knows the hearts of men. I would say that when the child begins to become aware, it would be determined by each awareness.

Such as, a child may understand killing more quickly then adultry. So the child, when coming to the fulness of understanding of killing, would then be held accountable for that perticular understanding. Yet, being still ignorance of adultry, not yet accountable.

As I said, it will be determined by God, for only he can see into our hearts.

 

[overit]

The pope and the church dont' dictate truth or even what is Biblical in that matter, so I don't care what he says/does really.

I do believe in heaven/hell, as far as children are concerned I do believe all babies and young children go to heaven, I also think it's something that varies by child (age of accountability-which there really is NO clear indication in Scripture, I'm sure God knew to ensure that was left out also).

On the other hand, I don't necessarily hold to the fact that all except born-again Christians will go to hell, it's important to me to be a believer but I don't actually hold to the view that most Christians do in regards to fellow non-Christian human beings and their final destination

 

[HisWordIsMySword]

On the other hand, I don't necessarily hold to the fact that all except born-again Christians will go to hell, it's important to me to be a believer but I don't actually hold to the view that most Christians do in regards to fellow non-Christian human beings and their final destination

You are not correct when saying all who are not born again will not go to hell.

Even those who were deemed righteous, died, and were held in the place known as death and hell could not enter the kingdom of heaven until they did as it is written in Romans 10.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


These who were righteous and died could not confess unto salvation until after Jesus defeated death through his death. Jesus went and preached in the lower parts of the earth. 1 Peter 4:6

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


The point is, all must do the above to enter the kingdom of God.

So if a man living today never heard of Jesus, the gospel, then he would be judged by God as to if he lived a righteous or unrighteous life. And at the time of his physical death, if he was deemed a righteous man, he would then have to make confession unto salvation in order to enter the kingdom of God.

 

[invisible trousers]

Thanks, Pope. Thope.

 

[Illuminatus]

when they're able to do long division.

I knew there was a silver lining to acalculia.

 

[Adonaijah]

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, verily I say unto you, except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."-Matthew 18:1-4
I believe this plainly says children go to heaven.

 

[beechy]

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, verily I say unto you, except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."-Matthew 18:1-4
I believe this plainly says children go to heaven.

Is a 15 year old a child?

 

[beechy]

Only God knows the hearts of men. I would say that when the child begins to become aware, it would be determined by each awareness.

Such as, a child may understand killing more quickly then adultry. So the child, when coming to the fulness of understanding of killing, would then be held accountable for that perticular understanding. Yet, being still ignorance of adultry, not yet accountable.

As I said, it will be determined by God, for only he can see into our hearts.

So if a 6 year old child is aware that it is bad to kill someone, and he does it anyway, do you believe he will go to hell?

 

[beechy]

I do believe in heaven/hell, as far as children are concerned I do believe all babies and young children go to heaven, I also think it's something that varies by child (age of accountability-which there really is NO clear indication in Scripture, I'm sure God knew to ensure that was left out also).

Why do you believe that all babies and young children go to heaven?