Pope John Paul II Again Reaches Out to Orthodox Church

[MariaRegina]

It comes from Blessed Augustine's view of original sin, which the East never accepted. In the west where Bl Augustine held sway, then the problem of Mary's sinlessness arose, how can she be sinless if we are all born sinners and guilty before we are even born? Answer Immaculate Conception of Mary. Orthodox feel all babies are born immaculately and therefore we can say Mary was born immaculately, but so were you, Tom , Sally, and everyone. There was nothing special about Mary's birth or conception.

Jeff the Finn

My dearest Jeff in Christ,

Have you read Bishop Kallistos Ware's book, THE ORTHODOX CHURCH?

Bishop Kallistos states that it is not incompatible for Orthodox to believe in the Immaculate Conception, it is just not mandatory.

If you look at the Troparion to St. Anne (Byzantine Daily Worship) you will read the words " the Immaculate One":

"Anne Divinely wise, you carried in your womb the Mother of God, the Immaculate One who gave life to LIfe; wherefore you now have been carried up joyfully to the inheritance of heave, to the abode of those who rejoice in glory. O Ever-blessed One, you seek the foregiveness of sins for those who honor your with fervor."

I admit that the Orthodox have not defined the doctrine of the IC.
In fact, I have heard two interpretations from Orthodox Priests:

(1) The Theotokos was conceived with Original Sin and at her conception of Christ was cleansed by the Holy Spirit. (cf Introduction to the Orthodox Church by Father Coniaris)

(2) The Theotokos was conceived without Original Sin because no one is conceived with Original Sin, only the curse from Adam's sin.

There was even one priest who said that Mary committed the sins of any Jewish mother, bossiness, when she asked the men at the Marriage Feast of Cana to "Do whatever He tells you." Claro que si, I disagree with this interpretation.

YSIC

Elizabeth

 

[nyj]

I would suggest that the Partriarch did not object to the teaching of the IC because we are all born free of the guilt of sin.

That however would have been an objection then, since the I.C. clearly states that Mary was cleansed from the guilt of original sin by Jesus' salvific death on the cross, PRIOR to her birth. However, no such objection was leveled by the good Patriarch.

 

[Philip]

That however would have been an objection then, since the I.C. clearly states that Mary was cleansed from the guilt of original sin by Jesus' salvific death on the cross, PRIOR to her birth. However, no such objection was leveled by the good Patriarch.

I do not have the strongest understanding of Orignial Sin, but I think that the same statement could be said of all of us. Christ's death saved everyone from Adam's sin and the fall of creation.

 

[isshinwhat]

After reading The Monks of Athos: A Western Monk's Journey onto Eastern Holy Ground, by Fr. Basil Pennington, OCSO, what became very concretely clear to me was we really do not understand eachother well at all. We all need to talk a lot about what we really believe before we start telling one another what the other believes. I think 1000 years of misunderstandings over the filioque should have taught should have taught us that.

...Original sin is called 'sin' only in an analogical sense: it is a sin 'contracted' and not 'committed' - a state and not an act."

Although it is proper to each individual,[Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1513.] original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence'. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle."

What, from these statements from the Catechism, disagrees with Orthodox thought?

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Benedicta00]

My 2 cents for what it is worth is that IC happened simultaneously (sp?) at her conception so it is not like she was not conceived differently from us, she was conceived with original sin but by a singular grace she was at the very same time preserved, at least that is how I comprehend it.

 

[Reader Nilus]

If you look at the Troparion to St. Anne (Byzantine Daily Worship) you will read the words " the Immaculate One":

"Anne Divinely wise, you carried in your womb the Mother of God, the Immaculate One who gave life to LIfe; wherefore you now have been carried up joyfully to the inheritance of heave, to the abode of those who rejoice in glory. O Ever-blessed One, you seek the foregiveness of sins for those who honor your with fervor."

Byzantine Daily Worship is a Catholic publication and not Orthodox, the Orthodox Troparion For the Feast of Joachim and Anna is the following:
Today the bonds of barrenness are loosed; for God listened to Joachim and Anna. He promised them * although it was beyond hope * that they should bear a divine child. From this child was born incarnate the Infinite God, Who told the Angel to cry to her: Rejoice, full of grace; the Lord is with thee.
Jeff the Finn

 

[isshinwhat]

On the Immaculate Conception, from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

". . .was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. . ." The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul. Simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.

". . .by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race." The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.

 

[MariaRegina]

Byzantine Daily Worship is a Catholic publication and not Orthodox, the Orthodox Troparion For the Feast of Joachim and Anna is the following:
Today the bonds of barrenness are loosed; for God listened to Joachim and Anna. He promised them * although it was beyond hope * that they should bear a divine child. From this child was born incarnate the Infinite God, Who told the Angel to cry to her: Rejoice, full of grace; the Lord is with thee.
Jeff the Finn

Dearest Finn:

Christ is in our midst!

From what book are you quoting. It's one I've never heard. And BTW: the Greeks accept the BDW.

Divine child = Mary. Wow! Now she's divine! LOL (Just joking)
However, do you see how words have to be chosen carefully?

YSIC

Elizabeth

 

[isshinwhat]

But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Eastern belief that death, as a consequence of Original Sin, is what leads us to commit actual, personal sins? Jeff, Phillip, Oblio, Chanter???

 

[jukesk9]

Problem here is, Catholics believe the Pope has been speaking ex cathedra for almost 2000 years, not just since Vatican I. This whole notion of the Pope only making a couple infallible statements isn't close to being correct. It's quite evident that Pope John Paul II himself has made infallible comments, most notably in his Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis where he said:

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

Sure. I agree with what you said. I guess though, for re-unification to happen, either the Orthodox Church will submit to the Pope (which I don't see happening) or the Pope will compromise and agree not to excercise ex cathedra without some sort of Council from the Orthodox Churches. I doubt that happens, though. I guess the only realistic thing maybe that could happen would be the allowance of both Catholic and Orthodox to participate in the Eucharist in each others Church.

 

[MariaRegina]

My dearest Jeff in Christ,

I've modified my previous post - to make it clearer and to elicit your response:

Have you read Bishop Kallistos Ware's book, THE ORTHODOX CHURCH?

Bishop Kallistos states that it is not incompatible for Orthodox to believe in the Immaculate Conception, it is just not mandatory.

I admit that the Orthodox have not defined the doctrine of the IC.
In fact, I have heard FOUR interpretations from Orthodox Priests and Monks:

(1) The Theotokos was conceived with Original Sin and at her conception of Christ was cleansed by the Holy Spirit. (cf Introduction to the Orthodox Church by Father Coniaris)

(2) The Theotokos was conceived without Original Sin because no one is conceived with Original Sin, only the curse from Adam's sin.

(3) There was even one priest who said that Mary committed the sins of any Jewish mother, bossiness, when she asked the men at the Marriage Feast of Cana to "Do whatever He tells you." Claro que si, I disagree with this interpretation. In other words, this priest taught that Mary committed personal sins all her life. I disagree strongly.

(4) THEN there is the recently canonized saint, St. Silouan of Mt. Athos who believed that Mary is ever-virgin, ever-sinless and the Immaculate One. Now he is also cradle Orthodox and a Russian saint to boot.

Then look at the following prayer after Vespers:
(Antiochian Service Book, p. 43)

"More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim, thou who without stain barest God the Word, and art truly Theotokos, we magnify thee.:

YSIC

Elizabeth

P.S. PLEASE SITE YOUR REFERENCES IN THE FUTURE!

 

[nyj]

Sure. I agree with what you said. I guess though, for re-unification to happen, either the Orthodox Church will submit to the Pope (which I don't see happening) or the Pope will compromise and agree not to excercise ex cathedra without some sort of Council from the Orthodox Churches.

Or the third option in which infallibility as defined is extended to the bishops as a whole. Something that is already contained within the Catholic definition of infallibility (which isn't limited to the Pope) and is agreed upon already by both the Catholic and Orthodox tradition. It would come down to the Orthodox taking a more defined approach to infallibility but it wouldn't (shouldn't) hinder the Catholic understanding of infallibility in the slightest.

 

[MariaRegina]

Or the third option in which infallibility as defined is extended to the bishops as a whole. Something that is already contained within the Catholic definition of infallibility (which isn't limited to the Pope) and is agreed upon already by both the Catholic and Orthodox tradition. It would come down to the Orthodox taking a more defined approach to infallibility but it wouldn't (shouldn't) hinder the Catholic understanding of infallibility in the slightest.

The most serious problem has to do with PAPAL SUPREMACY.

Read what this canon of Vatican I states, in fact, please quote it for us all to see. It's scary. It says that the Pope of Rome is over all churches, and that he is supreme over all Christians, that he is not just the Bishop of Rome. Am I wrong?

YSIC

Elizabeth

 

[Reader Nilus]

Dearest Finn:

Christ is in our midst!

From what book are you quoting. It's one I've never heard. And BTW: the Greeks accept the BDW.

Divine child = Mary. Wow! Now she's divine! LOL (Just joking)
However, do you see how words have to be chosen carefully?

YSIC

Elizabeth

http://www.oca.org/pages/dwp/dwp.asp?dayid=1209
The Feast of St Anne

 

[MariaRegina]

http://www.oca.org/pages/dwp/dwp.asp?dayid=1209
The Feast of St Anne

Dearest Jeff:

Christ is in our midst!

You've just committed a serious error. I quoted the TROPAR from the Feast of St. Anne on July 25. They must have a lot of fun with you on the Readers stand.

The TROPAR you quoted is from December 9:
from www.oca.org (as above)
The Conception by Righteous Anna of the Most-Holy Theotokos

Troparion in tone 4
Today the bonds of barrenness are broken,
God has heard the prayers of Joachim and Anna.
He has promised them beyond all their hopes,
To bear the Maiden of God
By whom the Uncircumscribed One was born as mortal man,
Who commanded an angel to cry to Her:
Rejoice, O Full of Grace, the Lord is with You!

Kontakion in tone 4
Today the universe rejoices,
For Anna has conceived the Theotokos through God's dispensation,
For she has brought forth the One who is to bear the Ineffable Word!

 

[Reader Nilus]

My dearest Jeff in Christ,

I've modified my previous post - to make it clearer and to elicit your response:


(2) The Theotokos was conceived without Original Sin because no one is conceived with Original Sin, only the curse from Adam's sin.

QUOTE]
(2) The Theotokos was conceived without Original Sin because no one is conceived with Original Sin, only the curse from Adam's sin.
There is no need for a dogma of the immaculate conception at all. In the RC understanding, Orthodox can not view as acceptable, although they can hold it as a private opinion according to Kallistos Ware. But he points out no Orthodox Theologian has ever defended that position after the RC's proclaimed that as doctrine.
Mary's Place in Christian Dialogue Page 176
Jeff the Finn

 

[Reader Nilus]

My dearest Jeff in Christ,

Have you read Bishop Kallistos Ware's book, THE ORTHODOX CHURCH?

Bishop Kallistos states that it is not incompatible for Orthodox to believe in the Immaculate Conception, it is just not mandatory.

If you look at the Troparion to St. Anne (Byzantine Daily Worship) you will read the words " the Immaculate One":

"Anne Divinely wise, you carried in your womb the Mother of God, the Immaculate One who gave life to LIfe; wherefore you now have been carried up joyfully to the inheritance of heave, to the abode of those who rejoice in glory. O Ever-blessed One, you seek the foregiveness of sins for those who honor your with fervor."

I admit that the Orthodox have not defined the doctrine of the IC.
In fact, I have heard two interpretations from Orthodox Priests:

(1) The Theotokos was conceived with Original Sin and at her conception of Christ was cleansed by the Holy Spirit. (cf Introduction to the Orthodox Church by Father Coniaris)

(2) The Theotokos was conceived without Original Sin because no one is conceived with Original Sin, only the curse from Adam's sin.

There was even one priest who said that Mary committed the sins of any Jewish mother, bossiness, when she asked the men at the Marriage Feast of Cana to "Do whatever He tells you." Claro que si, I disagree with this interpretation.

YSIC

Elizabeth

You did not cite the date of the feast you referring too.
Jeff the Finn

 

[MariaRegina]

You did not cite the date of the feast you referring too.
Jeff the Finn

Dearest Jeff:

Christ is in our midst!

Calm down! Relax! I checked out the OCA website. No wonder. You Russians have deleted the feast of St. Anna on July 25. Why did you do that? LOL

The Greeks and Antiochians celebrate it. Now do you see why the Orthodox cannot unite with the Roman Catholic Church in the very near future. We are still fighting over the calendar of saints besides the issue of new versus old calendarists.

It will definitely take a direct act of the Holy Spirit to achieve a Christian Unity that is true and correct, and not just political correctness.

YSIC

Elizabeth

 

[Reader Nilus]

http://www.oca.org/pages/dwp/dwp.asp?mode=form&month=7&day=25&imageField2.x=15&imageField2.y=9
It is there on July 25 the dormition of the righteous Anna Mother of the Theotokos.
Jeff the Finn

 

[MariaRegina]

http://www.oca.org/pages/dwp/dwp.asp?mode=form&month=7&day=25&imageField2.x=15&imageField2.y=9
It is there on July 25 the dormition of the righteous Anna Mother of the Theotokos.
Jeff the Finn

My Dearest Jeff, beloved one in Christ:

Christ is in our midst!

So here is the proper TROPAR: with almost the same translation as given in the BDW. Taken from above.
Notice the use of "immaculate one"

Dormition of the Righteous Anna, the Mother of the Most-Holy Theotokos, July 25

Troparion in tone 4
O divinely wise Anna,
Who carried in your womb the Mother of God;
The immaculate one who gave life to Life:
So you carried joyfully to the inheritance of Heaven,
To the abode of those who rejoice in glory,
Where you seek forgiveness of sins for those who faithfully honor you
O ever-blessed one!