Pope John Paul II Again Reaches Out to Orthodox Church

[JeffreyLloyd]

Pope John Paul II Again Reaches Out to Orthodox Church

The Associated Press

VATICAN CITY -- Pope John Paul II again reached out to the Orthodox Church on Sunday, saying his efforts at reconciliation weren't just "ecclesiastic courtesy" but a sign of his profound desire to unite the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches.

John Paul made the comments during his regular appearance to pilgrims and tourists in St. Peter's Square. Later Sunday, he welcomed a delegation from the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople at a traditional Mass marking the feast day of St. Peter and St. Paul.

"The exchange of delegations between Rome and Constantinople, for the respective patron feasts, goes beyond just an act of ecclesiastic courtesy," the pontiff said. "It reflects the profound and rooted intention to re-establish the full communion between East and West."

John Paul has made improving relations with the Orthodox Church a hallmark of his nearly 25-year papacy, visiting several mostly Orthodox countries and expressing regret for the wrongs committed by the Catholic Church against Orthodox Christians.

Despite his efforts at healing the 1,000-year-old schism, he hasn't yet visited Russia because of objections from the Russian Orthodox Church.

During the Mass on Sunday, 42 new archbishops received the pallium, a band of white wool decorated with black crosses that symbolizes their bond with the Vatican. Two of the archbishops received the pallium in their home parishes; the rest took part in the Mass in St. Peter's Basilica.

Pope John Paul II and Primate of the Greek Orthodox Church of America Demetrios Trakatellis are about to embrace during a solemn ceremony in which 42 new archbishops received the pallium, a band of white wool decorated with black crosses that symbolizes their bond with the Vatican, in St. Peter' s square at the Vatican Sunday, June 29, 2003. (AP Photo/Plinio Lepri)

 

[CopticOrthodox]

It's absolutely amazing to see how much progress there's been in relations between Catholicism and Orthodoxy in so short a time. It's amazing to think that the parents of a person I know who is Eastern Catholic spit when they go past an Orthodox Church, and this wasn't really unusual in their time, and now only 1 generation later it's as though almost all the old hate has been taken away and people on both sides are finally able to look at the issues with sobriety and charity. We're still far from one, but at least now we can interact with Christian charity. I'm very glad for the work H.H. Pope John Paul II has done during his reign in this area.

 

[Reader Nilus]

The Pope if he is serious about reunion with Orthodoxy could renounce the dogma of papal infallibility, that would be an act he could do to show us that he is serious. Until then I would not put to much stock in all of his gestures, and I am thankful the Russian Church is standing firm.
Jeff the Finn

 

[jukesk9]

The Pope if he is serious about reunion with Orthodoxy could renounce the dogma of papal infallibility, that would be an act he could do to show us that he is serious. Until then I would not put to much stock in all of his gestures, and I am thankful the Russian Church is standing firm.
Jeff the Finn

I totally understand--but I don't see the Pope doing that. However, I do see the two sides coming to an agreement where the Bishop of Rome is once again recognized as first among equals and not ever speaking ex cathedra again......

 

[Reader Nilus]

It is more than that, the Pope will only be Bishop of the Diocese of Rome and nowhere else. That means he does not appoint the Bishop of Seattle or any other place.
Jeff the Finn

 

[nyj]

The Pope if he is serious about reunion with Orthodoxy could renounce the dogma of papal infallibility, that would be an act he could do to show us that he is serious.

However, the dogma of papal infallibility does not just "cover" the Pope, it covers the Magesterium, which includes the Bishops. Even the Orthodox believe this, as evidenced by their holding the Ecumenical Councils to be infallible declarations, guided by the Holy Spirit.

It is more than that, the Pope will only be Bishop of the Diocese of Rome and nowhere else. That means he does not appoint the Bishop of Seattle or any other place.

So Paul was wrong to appoint Timothy and Titus as Bishops?

 

[Reader Nilus]

Is The Diocese of Seattle still a mission? I find that hard to believe. It was St Paul that appointed Bishops and not St Peter, so there is no grounds for the Bishop of Rome to do anything outside of his diocese. Also the dogmas about Mary prevent any reunion with Rome, Orthodox are united in the faith, not to an institution, that is the huge gulf between us. I do not see that reunion taking place in my lifetime. I do see a total reunion with the Oriental Orthodox.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Philip]

It is more than that, the Pope will only be Bishop of the Diocese of Rome and nowhere else. That means he does not appoint the Bishop of Seattle or any other place.

Shouldn't have the authority to appoint bishops with his jurisdiction? Mind you, I don't think this jurisdiction includes the entire world. Historically, however, Western Europe has turned to the Patriach of Rome just as Asia Minor to Constantinople, and Russia to Moscow.

 

[Reader Nilus]

Which in the Orthodox thinking would be Italy, not France, not Spain and so forth.
Jeff the Finn

 

[nyj]

Also the dogmas about Mary prevent any reunion with Rome, Orthodox are united in the faith, not to an institution, that is the huge gulf between us.

Exactly which one(s) Jeff? There is nothing the Catholic Church teaches on Mary, as far as I can tell, and I've discussed this at length with several people, that runs contrary to Orthodox thought. If anything, the Orthodox ideas on Marian doctrine are less developed. That doesn't mean, however that they (Catholic and Orthodox thought) conflict.

PS: Nice dig by the way... I'm loyal to an institution, not the Christian faith?

 

[nyj]

However, I do see the two sides coming to an agreement where the Bishop of Rome is once again recognized as first among equals and not ever speaking ex cathedra again......

Problem here is, Catholics believe the Pope has been speaking ex cathedra for almost 2000 years, not just since Vatican I. This whole notion of the Pope only making a couple infallible statements isn't close to being correct. It's quite evident that Pope John Paul II himself has made infallible comments, most notably in his Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis where he said:

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

 

[Philip]

Which in the Orthodox thinking would be Italy, not France, not Spain and so forth.

If those churches have asked for autocephaly, it should be granted. I am not aware that they have requested it.

 

[Philip]

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

Does this count as ex cathedra? Is it known by the forcefulness of the statement?

 

[Reader Nilus]

The Immaculate Conception of Mary, I as Orthodox can never accept, for that dogma places Mary outside of the human condition, and thus calls into question the Incarnation. Also the fact that Orthodox do not believe humans are born guilty, we become guilty by our choices. The dogma of the Assumption is not Gospel Kergyma and need not be required for membership in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. In Orthodoxy that is not required of anyone upon entering into the Holy Church.

it covers the Magesterium

In Orthodoxy there is nothing like a Magesterium, which is an institution.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Miss Shelby]

The Immaculate Conception of Mary, I as Orthodox can never accept, for that dogma places Mary outside of the human condition, and thus calls into question the Incarnation.

Jeff,

If this belief of ours places question on whether we view the Incarnation as valid, how can you consider us brothers and sisters?

Michelle

 

[Philip]

If this belief of ours places question on whether we view the Incarnation as valid, how can you consider us brothers and sisters?

We think you understand the Incarnation correctly, as well as we feeble humans can. We are concerned with the implications of the IC concerning the Incarnation. While we don't think you believe the implications, they are still there.

 

[Reader Nilus]

It comes from Blessed Augustine's view of original sin, which the East never accepted. In the west where Bl Augustine held sway, then the problem of Mary's sinlessness arose, how can she be sinless if we are all born sinners and guilty before we are even born? Answer Immaculate Conception of Mary. Orthodox feel all babies are born immaculately and therefore we can say Mary was born immaculately, but so were you, Tom , Sally, and everyone. There was nothing special about Mary's birth or conception.

Jeff the Finn

 

[nyj]

Does this count as ex cathedra? Is it known by the forcefulness of the statement?

Vatican I defined Papal Infallibility as follows:

When, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in the blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.


If we read the closing statement by Pope John Paul II in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, he has done this very thing. He spoke on an issue of faith (women priests) and stated that the Church had no authority to appoint women to the priesthood. He said this was to be definitively held by all the faithful. It's not just the forcefulness, it's how it's said as well.

 

[nyj]

The Immaculate Conception of Mary, I as Orthodox can never accept, for that dogma places Mary outside of the human condition, and thus calls into question the Incarnation.

Not all Orthodox agree with you: http://www.cin.org/imconcep.html

I find the last paragraph quite telling:
Only after Pope Pius IX defined the dogma in 1854 did opposition to the doctrine solidify among most Orthodox theologians. The Orthodox Church, however, has never made any definitive pronouncement on the matter. When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.

 

[Philip]

Not all Orthodox agree with you: I find the last paragraph quite t...s conception was somehow different than mine.