Pope Francis Reviewing New Apostolic Constitution to Cement ‘Traditionis Custodes’

[Akita Suggagaki]

I on the other hand despise the involvement of laymen.

Right, They should just be quiet back in the pews and maybe pray the rosary?

 

[Gnarwhal]

Right, They should just be quiet back in the pews and maybe pray the rosary?

I know you're writing that with a truckload of sarcasm but I don't care, the answer is yes.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I know you're writing that with a truckload of sarcasm but I don't care, the answer is yes.

Why?

 

[Lady Bug]

I know you're writing that with a truckload of sarcasm but I don't care, the answer is yes.

Are you talking about laymen in terms of EMHC or also the Mass responses by the laity?

 

[mourningdove~]

Yes, he does have that authority, and I think that's what he's working towards. I can't remember the particulars but I remember Tim Gordon (or maybe it was Timothy Flanders/The Meaning of Catholic crew?) explaining how and why he has that authority, and this is coming from people who are on the side of the Latin Mass.

If it were outright banned I think you'd see multiple fractures in the TLM community.

1. You'd have those who are traditional who were already fully committed to recognizing Francis' papacy, they would pray and fast on behalf of the TLM but they would obey his decrees and go to a novus ordo. Either because they don't want to go through anymore drama or they just have no alternatives near them.

2. You have those who recognize Francis papacy and his authority but they look for a valid and licit alternative because they don't want to cave to the pressure to attend a novus ordo so they seek out either an Ordinariate parish or an Eastern Catholic Church.

3. You have the group that he probably had in mind when he first wrote Traditionis Custodes: those who are on the fence about Francis' papacy, or outright reject it (sedes, Benevacantists, Beneplenists, etc). Those are the ones most likely to start going to an SSPX chapel, or even go into full schism and seek out something else like the SSPV.

Basically in the wake of Vatican II the Mass of Paul VI (AKA the novus ordo) had a lot of momentum and in it's implementation bishops essentially squashed the TLM. It wasn't banned, Benedict XVI said specifically it was never abrogated, but it basically faded because the bishops took advnatage of people's ignorance and made people think it was. But there were still a few devotees out there, like Abp Lefebvre who founded the SSPX, they kept the TLM alive until the "indult era" began in the 1980s. That was essentially when TLM's began to emerge again but it was a complex process of having them approved.

That lasted until 2007 when Benedict XVI issues Summorum Pontificum, which said that any priest could celebrate the TLM if they wanted without the permission of their bishop. Now in 2021 Francis issues Traditionis Custodes, which reversed Summorum Pontificum and more or less returned the TLM's status to the indult days. But now he's going further and trying to kill it forever.

Me too. There are a lot of novus ordo bullies out there who try to accuse Latin Mass devotees of having too rosey of a perspective on the Latin Mass, pointing to the issues that plagued TLM parishes in the pre-conciliar era. They'll shutter in horror when describing a "bad" Latin Mass like someone shoved them into an iron maiden and made them read Chaucer.

The fact of the matter is, you're right. The TLM is intrinsically beautiful because it's intrinsically Catholic, the novus ordo is not because the novus ordo is intrinsically protestant. They drew all their styling cues from protestant modes of worship (which is all based on the "four bare walls and a sermon" philosophy), that's why your average diocesan parish is a outdated and mundane building with little to elevate the soul while a traditional parish features all of the elements that have been intended and used throughout salvation history to help us enter into worshiping the God of the universe.

@spicoli

Thank you so much for your response. You've explained alot, and done so very clearly.
I appreciate what you've shared, so much so that I've saved a copy of your post for future reference!

 

[jas3]

I've heard rumors of this and was wondering when a thread was going to come up about it.

If the Latin Mass is completely banned, that might be the end of me considering Catholicism. I greatly admire many things about the Catholic Church: it has apostolic succession, it has produced some of the greatest theologians who have ever lived, it has held strong against the world on the issues of contraception and remarriage and clerical celibacy, and it has a rich, detailed history of both scholastic theology and popular piety. But I don't think I could reconcile the Guitar Mass becoming the one and only form, and an outright ban of a form that is objectively more reverent, with the Catholic Church being the true Church.

And that would be terrible. I really like Catholicism. I got a 1962 daily missal this past Sunday and have been reading through it in my spare time. The text of the Mass, the accompanying text explaining the importance of the liturgy in our lives and the purpose of the various parts of the liturgical year, really feels like the people who wrote it, and the people it was written for, took their faith seriously. And when I go to a TLM, I see that the people there do take their faith seriously. They arrive early, they pray in the pews, the priest holds confession before every Mass, mortal sin is actually mentioned, people have large families, they dress appropriately for church, and above all they actually seem to care about being there.

When I go to a Novus Ordo, people clearly don't; they show up late in hoodies and jeans, they're distracted and talking to each other throughout the service, they don't kneel at the consecration of the Eucharist, and they leave early. Confession is held on Wednesday and Saturday for three hours total. Every Mass, without fail, the army of EMHCs makes sure people get through the drudgery they must think Holy Communion is in three minutes flat - one week the priest even apologized because there weren't the "usual number of EMHCs" because one couldn't make it. Kind of defeats the purpose of them being called "extraordinary" when the only thing extraordinary about them is when they aren't there.

But more than all that, I do believe what Pope Benedict XVI said, that "what earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful." I don't see how I could square that with a proclamation from Pope Francis that contradicts it.

 

[chevyontheriver]

​

VATICAN CITY, February 18, 2023—The Remnant has learned that a Vatican document is currently under review by Pope Francis that would expand and reinforce his 2021 Motu proprio Traditionis Custodes, affirm that the only official liturgy of the Latin Rite is the Novus Ordo, and stringently regulate the ex-Ecclesia Dei communities.​

​

Well-informed Vatican sources have confirmed to the Remnant, which accurately warned of Traditionis Custodes before it was published in 2021, that the draft document, in the form of an apostolic constitution, was presented to Pope Francis at the end of January by superiors of the Dicastery for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments headed by Cardinal Arthur Roche.​

Pope Francis Reviewing New Apostolic Constitution to Cement ‘Traditionis Custodes’

Italian Translation VATICAN CITY, February 18, 2023—The Remnant has learned that a Vatican document is currently under review by Pope Francis that would expand and reinforce his 2021 Motu proprio Traditionis Custodes, affirm that the only official liturgy of the Latin Rite is the Novus Ordo, and...

remnantnewspaper.com

What came out today is not that but a ‘clarification’ which is actually an expansion. It requires a bishop who desires to provide a dispensation for a parish TLM to get the approval of the pope first. Which actually takes away the authority of a bishop to actually grant a dispensation. Same story for granting a dispensation for a newly ordained priest to say the TLM. The power is further centralized in the Vatican. Archbishop Roche has signed this clarification with the apporoval of pope Francis. The screws tighten.

 

[jas3]

What came out today is not that but a ‘clarification’ which is actually an expansion.

I guess at least that's better than the worst possibilities I've heard, although still not good. I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions earlier.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I guess at least that's better than the worst possibilities I've heard, although still not good. I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions earlier.

There ARE persistent rumors of an apostolic constitution coming in about a month that would shut down the TLM. These rumors MIGHT be in the form of trial balloons, or just nothingburgers, or the real thing. Problem is at this stage they are just rumors. So maybe. But for now ....

What I dislike about the action from yesterday is that it is a creeping solidification of power to the Vatican and away from plain old bishops. The pope CAN do that by right of his authority, but it makes bishops mere middle managers. If my priest wants to say the TLM in the parish church he needs the Vatican to approve of the bishop granting a dispensation. And somehow I expect permission from the pope for such a dispensation will be breathtakingly rare.

 

[Gnarwhal]

What came out today is not that but a ‘clarification’ which is actually an expansion. It requires a bishop who desires to provide a dispensation for a parish TLM to get the approval of the pope first. Which actually takes away the authority of a bishop to actually grant a dispensation. Same story for granting a dispensation for a newly ordained priest to say the TLM. The power is further centralized in the Vatican. Archbishop Roche has signed this clarification with the apporoval of pope Francis. The screws tighten.

There's so much irony in that. Just goes to show it was never about giving authority back to the bishops in the first place, it was always about toeing a line.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I've heard rumors of this and was wondering when a thread was going to come up about it.

If the Latin Mass is completely banned, that might be the end of me considering Catholicism. I greatly admire many things about the Catholic Church: it has apostolic succession, it has produced some of the greatest theologians who have ever lived, it has held strong against the world on the issues of contraception and remarriage and clerical celibacy, and it has a rich, detailed history of both scholastic theology and popular piety. But I don't think I could reconcile the Guitar Mass becoming the one and only form, and an outright ban of a form that is objectively more reverent, with the Catholic Church being the true Church.

Where you gonna go? The Orthodox are flaccid soft on contraception and remarriage. Maybe the Bruderhof? They have some solid moral teaching at least. Their nearest congregation is 400 miles from me.

And that would be terrible. I really like Catholicism. I got a 1962 daily missal this past Sunday and have been reading through it in my spare time. The text of the Mass, the accompanying text explaining the importance of the liturgy in our lives and the purpose of the various parts of the liturgical year, really feels like the people who wrote it, and the people it was written for, took their faith seriously. And when I go to a TLM, I see that the people there do take their faith seriously. They arrive early, they pray in the pews, the priest holds confession before every Mass, mortal sin is actually mentioned, people have large families, they dress appropriately for church, and above all they actually seem to care about being there.

There IS something very positive about those who attend a TLM.

When I go to a Novus Ordo, people clearly don't; they show up late in hoodies and jeans, they're distracted and talking to each other throughout the service, they don't kneel at the consecration of the Eucharist, and they leave early. Confession is held on Wednesday and Saturday for three hours total.

I saw no hoodies last Sunday. I didn't concentrate on pants so I can't even guess. It was mostly full when I arrived a few minutes early. I heard no talking during the mass other than the liturgy itself. Everyone knelt at the consecration. I didn't watch the doors after communion to see if anyone left early, but then I was looking forward at the altar and the crucifix. We have many more hours of confession than that. I think maybe you need to dump that parish and try for a better one. You are not stuck going to a geographic parish. My old parish before I moved finally got on the list of reverent Catholic masses. They do a novus ordo mass, but they do benedictions in Latin, have perpetual adoration, and teach the faith straight. reverentcatholicmass.com

Oh, I got to a weekday mass last week and I got there early. Twenty-five people were there ahead of me ten minutes early. Another twenty-five came before mass. And that was the second daily mass at this not too huge parish. The other one at 6:45 AM has about thirty people. Both are novus ordo and both are reverent. I could see this parish getting on the reverentcatholicmass.com list someday too. If your parish doesn't have anything like that for daily mass maybe you should find a parish that does. Not all parishes sadly are equal. There are good ones out there. I know we shouldn't have to be picky, but we do.

Every Mass, without fail, the army of EMHCs makes sure people get through the drudgery they must think Holy Communion is in three minutes flat - one week the priest even apologized because there weren't the "usual number of EMHCs" because one couldn't make it. Kind of defeats the purpose of them being called "extraordinary" when the only thing extraordinary about them is when they aren't there.

On this you are right. They try to make the Eucharist 'efficient' when it is a profound spiritual moment. I like how the Ordinariate does it, with a communion rail where you kneel and the priest puts the host on your tongue and then the deacon comes by with the chalice.

But more than all that, I do believe what Pope Benedict XVI said, that "what earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful." I don't see how I could square that with a proclamation from Pope Francis that contradicts it.

What pope Benedict said was true, not an infallible statement but a true statement. Pope Francis hasn't a clue. He hasn't even got a clue that he doesn't have a clue. But he has the authority. Ready, fire, aim.

 

[chevyontheriver]

There's so much irony in that. Just goes to show it was never about giving authority back to the bishops in the first place, it was always about toeing a line.

But of course. Make it look like you give the bishops authority, lean on them hard to make the desired decision, and when enough of them act pastorally, tell them they HAVE TO get permission from Rome. Then don't give the permission. Super-Neo-Ultra-Montanism.

 

[Erose]

Pope Benedict allowed the TLM because he hoped there would be improvements made to the novus ordo. But he's dead and pope Francis has other ideas.

Pope Benedict allowed the TLM because he was hoping for the SSPX to come back into full communion.

 

[Erose]

Historically, whenever the Church came out with a new Missal, the whole Church, except those dioceses and religious orders who have their own liturgy, was to make the change. What we have currently with the NO and TLM is not normal historically.

That being said, TLM groups should use the NO in its Latin form, using Eucharistic prayer one, and continue to use altar rails, ad orientem, gregorian chant, etc. IMO this would have a greater impact on changing overall the celebration of the Mass in the whole Church. Better yet, use the vernacular with keeping the altar rails and gregorian chant! That I would love to see!

Anyway, whether we like it or not, having the situation we have right now with two missals, is not normal.

 

[zippy2006]

I am not saying I want God to strike pope Francis dead. That for the record. But if he is going to try to make an infallible statement on the liturgy like that...

Changes to the liturgy are a disciplinary matter, not a matter of faith or morals. There is no such thing as determining a liturgical question on a de fide basis by means of an ex cathedra proclamation. Besides, if it is a dogma that the vetus ordo is impermissible to celebrate then every Roman Catholic who ever celebrated the vetus ordo was a heretic.

The Pope has the power to suppress any form of the liturgy he likes, but his successor can reverse his decision in a day. It would seem rather futile for Francis to try to 'cement' his program when he is probably on the verge of retirement. His successor will inevitably be left with a number of difficult things to address, one of which will be the vetus ordo.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Changes to the liturgy are a disciplinary matter, not a matter of faith or morals. There is no such thing as determining a liturgical question on a de fide basis by means of an ex cathedra proclamation.

I agree. It would be an all wrong approach to try to make an infallible statement on liturgical matters.

Besides, if it is a dogma that the vetus ordo is impermissible to celebrate then every Roman Catholic who ever celebrated the vetus ordo was a heretic.

Exactly. Here's hoping nobody tries that.

The Pope has the power to suppress any form of the liturgy he likes ...

Yup. He CAN do it.

... but his successor can reverse his decision in a day. It would seem rather futile for Francis to try to 'cement' his program when he is probably on the verge of retirement. His successor will inevitably be left with a number of difficult things to address, one of which will be the vetus ordo.

I do not envy his successor. He already has a loaded plate.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Historically, whenever the Church came out with a new Missal, the whole Church, except those dioceses and religious orders who have their own liturgy, was to make the change. What we have currently with the NO and TLM is not normal historically.

That being said, TLM groups should use the NO in its Latin form, using Eucharistic prayer one, and continue to use altar rails, ad orientem, gregorian chant, etc. IMO this would have a greater impact on changing overall the celebration of the Mass in the whole Church. Better yet, use the vernacular with keeping the altar rails and gregorian chant! That I would love to see!

I wholeheartedly agree. Not everyone would, but I do. Parishes should try to implement Sacrosanctam Concilium as written and intended to the extent they are able and allowed. And then lobby for further reform of the reform. Eventually it would be my preference to get back to the letter and the intent of Vatican II on the liturgy and not what the bureaucrats eventually gave us.

Anyway, whether we like it or not, having the situation we have right now with two missals, is not normal.

Actually, it is rather normal considering the Melkite and Maronite and Ambrosian and Sarum and Congolese rites and all the other rites. There is a balance between local adaptation (good) and textual corruption (bad) that has been in play in the Church for a VERY long time. We accept the diversity today even in the Latin patriarchy of Dominican and Ordinariate liturgies, and even varying canons while we contemplate a Lutheran form of liturgy somewhat like the Anglican form maybe being possible. Multiple missals. Multiple tabs. A bit chaotic, but then here comes everybody.

I think one of Benedict's hopes for bringing back the 1962 mass was for cross fertilization. Organically over time. Less rupture and more continuity. Bring back the best of the TLM into the NO and improve the TLM too. Maybe eventually have one very good liturgy again that all could get behind for once. But we are being put back in rupture mode again where bishops think they have to shut down even ad orientem liturgies, or even the novus ordo in Latin to be in compliance with Rome. Such things HAVE happened and ARE happening.

Archbishop Lefevbre actually approved of the 1965 vernacular liturgy, that quickly but conservatively translated thing that now nobody at all uses (as far as I know). So it's not like the vernacular is the problem. It's the differences between the 1965 and the 1970 versions where the challenges lie.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Pope Benedict allowed the TLM because he was hoping for the SSPX to come back into full communion.

In part, but there WAS more to it, and that 'more' involved a cross-fertilizing of liturgies.

If bringing the SSPX back was the whole of it there would have been no need or point in allowing the TLM for any and every priest who wanted it.

The SSPX is in an awkward sort of communion at the moment. Real but awkward. Do you think they are being shown the door?

 

[jas3]

Where you gonna go? The Orthodox are flaccid soft on contraception and remarriage. Maybe the Bruderhof? They have some solid moral teaching at least. Their nearest congregation is 400 miles from me.

Orthodoxy is the only other option I'm considering, and yeah their comparatively lax attitude towards both of these issues is a downside, but at least there are no liturgy wars over there. You don't have to look up Orthodox parishes on reverentorthodoxliturgy.com to see if you're going to be walking into a Liturgy of St. Basil or a guitar liturgy. You don't have to worry that your bishop is going to ban ad orientem liturgies or the use of the church's liturgical language. I hear there were some pretty bad abuses during the depths of COVID with the Eucharist being given out in solo cups or with plastic spoons that ended up in the trash, but around me every Catholic church except the SSPX either did similar things or deprived the faithful of the sacraments completely.

I saw no hoodies last Sunday. I didn't concentrate on pants so I can't even guess. It was mostly full when I arrived a few minutes early. I heard no talking during the mass other than the liturgy itself. Everyone knelt at the consecration. I didn't watch the doors after communion to see if anyone left early, but then I was looking forward at the altar and the crucifix. We have many more hours of confession than that. I think maybe you need to dump that parish and try for a better one.

This is one I found on reverentcatholicmass.com. I've tried every parish within an hour of me and this is the best one I could find. They do have some traditional elements in their liturgy - the Sanctus and Agnus Dei are in Latin, and they use incense at one of their four masses. But that's mixed with folk worship songs from the 1980s and a minimum of 4, usually more, EMHCs at every service regardless of the number of people in attendance. I'm not looking around for people doing the other stuff, they sit right in front of me a lot of the time and come back to the pew after communion, noisily gather their bags and talk to each other, and walk out. It's distracting. It's great that some people are able to find very reverent, orthodox NO parishes, but they seem to be an extreme minority that is unavailable in most places, to the extent that I have never seen one in person, and the parish being listed on reverentcatholicmass.com isn't a guarantee of the "ad orientem toward a high altar, mostly in Latin, Gregorian chant-filled, hard-to-tell-from-a-TLM" liturgies that the website advertises. Out of curiosity, I looked at the website's "reverence meter" and this parish ranks at an 11-12, putting it firmly in the "lukewarm" category, about which they say "the best option will be to find a more reverent parish."

You are not stuck going to a geographic parish.

I'm aware, and thank goodness. I made the mistake of visiting my geographic parish with my wife for her first introduction to a Catholic Mass without having watched a service there before. They sang Hillsong (Protestant megachurch) worship songs and the priest modified the text of the liturgy to use "inclusive language." There were no kneelers and the pews were actually just close enough together that it would be difficult to kneel, so nobody did. Needless to say, we did not go back.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Orthodoxy is the only other option I'm considering, and yeah their comparatively lax attitude towards both of these issues is a downside, but at least there are no liturgy wars over there. You don't have to look up Orthodox parishes on reverentorthodoxliturgy.com to see if you're going to be walking into a Liturgy of St. Basil or a guitar liturgy. You don't have to worry that your bishop is going to ban ad orientem liturgies or the use of the church's liturgical language.

True. But then you never know if they follow the Gregorian calendar or Julian calendar or are that special group of really old calendrists. And who is in or out of communion with whom this week. We all have our problems.

My parish church hosts a Byzantine congregation which I have yet to attend. I would imagine they have a reverent liturgy. I’ve known several people who have ‘gone Byzantine’ while remaining Catholic. So far pope Francis has not threatened the other rites of the Church, preferring to just mess with the Latin rite.