Pope Francis presides over Eastern Catholic Liturgy

[GoingByzantine]

Pope Francis presided over an Armenian Mass (DL of Gregory the Illuminator) today, this is the first time in his papacy that he has celebrated a non-Roman liturgy.

The Armenian liturgy is one of the oldest, and most beautiful liturgies in Catholicism. It reminds some of the TLM, but it quite unique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYCQZVIDAx8

 

[Anhelyna]

Sadly - oh so sadly , from a board elsewhere I got this information

Here is the booklet for the liturgical celebration this Sunday, April 12th...it will be a Roman-rite Mass. The Gospel will be proclaimed in Armenian. There will also be an official proclamation of St Gregory of Narek as Doctor of the Church.

 

[GoingByzantine]

Hmm...I will have to watch the video closely for clues as to whether this is Roman or Armenian. I sure how he followed the Armenian Rite.

One thing I note is that he is facing towards the laity, when in a true for Armenian Rite liturgy I believe that you are supposed to face the altar.

 

[Anhelyna]

Found the booklet referred to

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/libretti/2015/20150412-libretto-messa-armeni.pdf

That to me says it all - if that was the Service that was used - it looks very very like a Roman Rite Mass

 

[GoingByzantine]

Thanks Anhelyna. This is not what I thought.

 

[seashale76]

Speaking of Armenia though, did anyone else catch the news story that came out yesterday about the Kardashians? Kim, Kanye, and their entourage are currently in Armenia 'discovering her roots' or something. Anyway, they went into an Armenian church (today is Pascha mind- and their little church visit coincided with holy week services) and had her body guards not let people in the church. The bishop went off and said they couldn't bar people access to a church service.

 

[AXO]

It has been a Latin-rite mass. It simply has been for the Armenian faithful in remembrance of the known slaughter.

 

[Antoninus]

Hmm...I will have to watch the video closely for clues as to whether this is Roman or Armenian. I sure how he followed the Armenian Rite.

One thing I note is that he is facing towards the laity, when in a true for Armenian Rite liturgy I believe that you are supposed to face the altar.

I recorded it on EWTN. It was indeed a Roman Rite Mass. I was hoping it would be an Armenian Soorp Badarak, but I'm guessing Pope Francis wouldn't be familiar celebrating the Armenian Rite and that is why the Roman Mass was celebrated.

 

[GoingByzantine]

It was still a nice mass, plenty of chanting and traditional elements.

 

[dzheremi]

Here is an Armenian Orthodox Badarak celebrated by H.E. Archbishop Moushegh Mardirossian, for comparison:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIlHLswSHSA

Other than the use of the organ in the opening hymn and some of the externals, it's pretty far from anything Roman. Armenian Christianity is interesting because it is so old that it has gone through distinct phases of outside influence, so you can spot a lot of different influences if you are attuned to them. The organ and some of the vestments probably remind Roman Catholics of their church, but the actual chant form (even with the organ) is, from an OO perspective, basically what you'd expect if you mixed Syriac chant (the Armenians originally worshiped in Syriac before the time of St. Mesrob) and Byzantine chant -- completely understandable when you consider their cultural and geographic ties between the Byzantine empire and the Persian. Check out the unaccompanied chant at ~18 minutes in the above video -- sublime, but really, really not Latin. (Not that there's anything wrong with Latin chant, of course, but just pointing out that the differences between and actual Armenian liturgy and what you have in the video of Pope Francis are pretty striking, once you orient yourself to the Armenian way of doing things.)

My question would be: Why is there a Roman mass being served for Armenians? Is it connected to remembering the genocide or something? I don't know enough about the relations between Rome and the Catholic Armenians to know the context of this (I've never met an Armenian Catholic, only Orthodox). Anyway, I guess it's kind of neat to see...just confusing, from a ritualistic perspective.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Here is an Armenian Orthodox Badarak celebrated by H.E. Archbishop Moushegh Mardirossian, for comparison:

Other than the use of the organ in the opening hymn and some of the externals, it's pretty far from anything Roman. Armenian Christianity is interesting because it is so old that it has gone through distinct phases of outside influence, so you can spot a lot of different influences if you are attuned to them. The organ and some of the vestments probably remind Roman Catholics of their church, but the actual chant form (even with the organ) is, from an OO perspective, basically what you'd expect if you mixed Syriac chant (the Armenians originally worshiped in Syriac before the time of St. Mesrob) and Byzantine chant -- completely understandable when you consider their cultural and geographic ties between the Byzantine empire and the Persian. Check out the unaccompanied chant at ~18 minutes in the above video -- sublime, but really, really not Latin. (Not that there's anything wrong with Latin chant, of course, but just pointing out that the differences between and actual Armenian liturgy and what you have in the video of Pope Francis are pretty striking, once you orient yourself to the Armenian way of doing things.)

My question would be: Why is there a Roman mass being served for Armenians? Is it connected to remembering the genocide or something? I don't know enough about the relations between Rome and the Catholic Armenians to know the context of this (I've never met an Armenian Catholic, only Orthodox). Anyway, I guess it's kind of neat to see...just confusing, from a ritualistic perspective.

The reason for it is that there is an Armenian Rite in the Roman Catholic Church, so this was for the Roman Catholic Armenian Church for the Armenian Roman Catholics, but the Pope obviously extended invitations to the Armenian Catholicoi and President and other Armenian dignitaries and clergy. The real purpose of this was that the Pope was naming St. Gregory of Narek a Doctor of the Catholic Church, which is a very big honor. He said in the service that he did this (at least in part) in hopes that it will serve as a comfort to Armenians for having suffered the Genocide.

Because he's a generous Pope who loves people and has a heart for the Armenians because he was/is good friends with the Armenians in the community in Argentina.

Armenian Apostolic is actually closer to the Roman Catholic than to the Orthodox. We make the sign of the cross in the same pattern, only we add one more movement to the heart at the end and we use three fingers for the trinity - but I noticed a lot of the Armenian Catholics doing this also.

The mass was Roman but also included Armenian chants and sharagans (hymns, for our Catholic friends here) but the badarak (liturgy) by the Pope was Roman/Latin.

It was a beautiful service and showed Christian love and unity on behalf of the Pope.

Does anyone know the name of the Armenian Catholic bishop in this service (in red with a large mitre)?? Would that be Cardinal Agajanian? Would he take that role in that kind of service? I don't think it was him but I don't know... I get the feeling it is the bishop for the Armenian Catholic parish in Rome.

By the way, dzheremi, I have Armenian Catholic relatives, a few.

 

[dzheremi]

The reason for it is that there is an Armenian Rite in the Roman Catholic Church, so this was for the Roman Catholic Armenian Church for the Armenian Roman Catholics, but the Pope obviously extended invitations to the Armenian Catholicoi and President and other Armenian dignitaries and clergy. The real purpose of this was that the Pope was naming St. Gregory of Narek a Doctor of the Catholic Church, which is a very big honor. He said in the service that he did this (at least in part) in hopes that it will serve as a comfort to Armenians for having suffered the Genocide.

That's good.

Armenian Apostolic is actually closer to the Roman Catholic than to the Orthodox. We make the sign of the cross in the same pattern

This is an odd thing to focus on. All OO cross themselves the same way, but it's not anything to do with Rome. Latin Catholics used to cross themselves as the EO do, but switched sometime in the middle ages due to the people incorrectly mirroring the priest's action (this was mentioned in the video "A Brief Introduction to the Eastern Catholic Churches" that was produced by the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Parma in 1992, so Catholics themselves recognize this). By contrast, according to our Coptic priests and also Ethiopians I've talked to, OO always crossed themselves left-to-right.

The mass was Roman but also included Armenian chants and sharagans (hymns, for our Catholic friends here) but the badarak (liturgy) by the Pope was Roman/Latin.

Ah, thank you. I didn't watch the whole thing, but skipped around.

By the way, dzheremi, I have Armenian Catholic relatives, a few.

Cool. Are they in Armenia or elsewhere? I only know about the Patriarchate in Bzoummar, Lebanon thanks to Lebanese friends of mine (Maronites, not Lebanese-Armenians), but I don't know about Armenia proper.

 

[GoingByzantine]

The reason for it is that there is an Armenian Rite in the Roman Catholic Church, so this was for the Roman Catholic Armenian Church for the Armenian Roman Catholics, but the Pope obviously extended invitations to the Armenian Catholicoi and President and other Armenian dignitaries and clergy. The real purpose of this was that the Pope was naming St. Gregory of Narek a Doctor of the Catholic Church, which is a very big honor. He said in the service that he did this (at least in part) in hopes that it will serve as a comfort to Armenians for having suffered the Genocide.

Because he's a generous Pope who loves people and has a heart for the Armenians because he was/is good friends with the Armenians in the community in Argentina.

Armenian Apostolic is actually closer to the Roman Catholic than to the Orthodox. We make the sign of the cross in the same pattern, only we add one more movement to the heart at the end and we use three fingers for the trinity - but I noticed a lot of the Armenian Catholics doing this also.

The mass was Roman but also included Armenian chants and sharagans (hymns, for our Catholic friends here) but the badarak (liturgy) by the Pope was Roman/Latin.

It was a beautiful service and showed Christian love and unity on behalf of the Pope.

Does anyone know the name of the Armenian Catholic bishop in this service (in red with a large mitre)?? Would that be Cardinal Agajanian? Would he take that role in that kind of service? I don't think it was him but I don't know... I get the feeling it is the bishop for the Armenian Catholic parish in Rome.

By the way, dzheremi, I have Armenian Catholic relatives, a few.

Definitely the sharagans threw me off and made me think that this was actually a Armenian Rite Liturgy, but it truly was a wonderful occasion none the less.

 

[Anhelyna]

I thought that some folk would appreciate these photos

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/p843x403/11052440_911618975547355_1249225291701883118_n.jpg?oh=a7969e5edd47f3251ec3d364db16d25e&oe=55A82FC2&__gda__=1436319781_cad2be98f75a0800150c01cf7ebcc3af

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Cool. Are they in Armenia or elsewhere? I only know about the Patriarchate in Bzoummar, Lebanon thanks to Lebanese friends of mine (Maronites, not Lebanese-Armenians), but I don't know about Armenia proper.

They are in Armenia but they are from Aleppo, Syria. They are family by marriage. Most of my family is either Armenian Apostolic (Orthodox) or Armenian Evangelical (Protestant).

Most of my family is from Beirut - that would be my blood family. Also from Amman, Jordan and Jerusalem and Cyprus. I have other extended family from Aleppo, Turkey, Egypt, and Armenia.

I thought you are Armenian but after reading some posts it seems you might be Coptic??? Are you Coptic ethnically or did you convert to the Coptic Church? Or are you Armenian?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Definitely the sharagans threw me off and made me think that this was actually a Armenian Rite Liturgy, but it truly was a wonderful occasion none the less.

Me too, but as I skipped ahead I saw that the mass itself was actually Roman, by the Pope... They just incorporated Armenian sharagans and other elements into the service, which was very nice.