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Pope Francis establishes new commission to study women deacons

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Michie, Apr 8, 2020.

  1. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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  2. Knightwolflord

    Knightwolflord Christian Lector

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    Excellent! I am glad that His Holiness is keeping up with his original assertion to continue the research. This is a contention-ridden question and one that deserves as many clarifications as needed.

    In my own research, the only path of "women deacons" I can foresee is that of lay women consecrated or otherwise instituted as special ministers of a lay ministry (akin to acolyte, subdeacon, or lector) called "deaconess." That seems to be the path most congruent to the universal practice of the Church in its early days, while also respecting the legitimate development of the doctrine of Holy Orders being reserved to baptized males. Personally, I think such a lay ministry is unnecessary in our day and age, but I am not the Pope or the Bishops. If they feel such a ministry would be useful, then I defer to "the men with the big hats" (as I heard it once said).

    I do not see a viable path to ordaining a woman to the diaconate via Holy Orders though. That is my personal conclusion based on my own study, but I am obviously not an expert nor pretend to be. I suppose it may be possible for women to be ordained to the diaconate via Holy Orders, but I would expect such a decision would require significant explanation and clarification from the highest levels of the Church.

    Initial thoughts.
     
  3. Amittai

    Amittai monitor evaluator

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    What next - women in frocks! :scratch:
     
  4. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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  5. eastcoast_bsc

    eastcoast_bsc Veteran

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    If first you don’t succeed, try try again.
     
  6. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How come that only seems to work in one direction?
     
  7. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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  8. Knightwolflord

    Knightwolflord Christian Lector

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    An interesting article that underscores the fact that this is less about trying to force-fit women deacons (via Holy Orders) than it is about marching toward a conclusive answer to this contentious question. The lack of the presence of Phyllis Zagano this time around is particularly glaring.

    The simple fact of the matter is that this issue needs to be brought to some kind of authoritative conclusion one way or another. Granted, those who already spurn the Church's teaching on women priests and bishops will probably not accept a negative answer, but the closer we get to a definitive answer the better, imho. The Supreme Pontiff understands this, I believe, and that is why he is moving forward with the research.

    Ultimately, there is nothing to worry about. Christ will not allow the Church to defect on such an important issue, if indeed it is proximate to the Faith.
     
  9. Knightwolflord

    Knightwolflord Christian Lector

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    An additional thought:

    The question of women deacons (via Holy Orders) is strongly associated with the Church's current clear teaching (reflected in canon law in East and West) that only baptized males can receive Holy Orders. But that is not all. A more precise way of describing the situation would be to say that only called baptized males can receive Holy Orders. This is an issue very close to my heart as I continue to discern my own vocation. Only those who men who are called by God are meant to be in Holy Orders. It is not a free-for-all to any baptized male. It must be discerned carefully by the individual and by the hierarchical Church.

    This is a point frequently lost in these discussions, but (I believe) an extremely important one.
     
  10. Fenwick

    Fenwick ☩ Broman Catholic ☩

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    Can’t say I didn’t see this coming. I think we all did. That little jig we all danced a while back when he released Querida Amazonia and hierarchs were saying “this is a win for conservatives” was for naught, the whole thing was smoke and Francis and his lackeys will make a strong push for their endgame now.

    Agenda 2030 and the like.
     
  11. eastcoast_bsc

    eastcoast_bsc Veteran

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    Not sure but it like trying to put a horse on a trailer, the horse bucks and protests so they just turn it around and try again.

    I firmly believe the vaticans end games is to have ordained woman Deacons and the process is all smoke and mirrors.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
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  12. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    They have to figure out how to do that which is impossible. I suspect they keep running up against the will of God.
     
  13. Stabat

    Stabat Stat Crux, dum volvitur orbis Supporter

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    Its most definitely not a pious thought to entertain, but i have to admit ive been thinking about the consequences of the coronavirus running wild in the vatican. It may not be all bad for the church if it did.

    Old and fragile clergy pushing their 80s, still working against God and the sacred tradition of the church. If something like this were to happen we would get a real renewal of the upperclery. New minds and new ways, one might even propose that it would indeed be renewing for the piety of the entire church.

    They're so stubborn, prideful and set in their ways. I honestly fail to see how the church could possibly repent with its current staff and management.
    We need to wait this generation out in order to see any real improvements anyway.

    Nasty thoughts, even sinful ones, but a wipeout in the upperclery could be less horrendous than one might think. That being said we should pray for our clergy and our pope. He could still be turned to conversion and repentance by God. Just think about st. Paul prior to his conversion...

    The Lord can turn even the most fierce opponents of God to his service.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  14. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nasty indeed. And I shouldn't be thinking that either. So I, like you, pray for their conversion. Maybe the fear of death will instill the fear of God in even the worst of these fellows. It's worth praying for. Some will be unreformable but some might change. And some of the good ones may become more emboldened. In any group there are about 10% really good, 10% really bad, and the middle who go along with the dominant force. So a small change can have a big effect in the larger group. I'll keep praying.

    My local clergy have become emboldened. They started drive up confession very early on, and liturgies via youtube early on, and yesterday we had a BIG Eucharistic procession. Actually our second one in this era of covid-19. Everyone showed up in their cars with the windows closed. Cars filled the parking lot and were way down the street as far as I could see anyway. Two priests come out with incense and a monstrance and go amid the cars. No words, but we were together and together with God. Then we went home. It was hard to leave.

    I hope you are doing OK, doing useful things, and not fretting too much. My prayers include you and your family.
     
  15. Stabat

    Stabat Stat Crux, dum volvitur orbis Supporter

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    Thanks for your warm reply, it helps stressful times such as ours. Id love to have similar services as the one you described, but it is what it is.

    Im not fretting much now adays, but im just struck by the focus on things like this in general. It doesnt help that the world is suffering from an pandemic as we speak. On top of everything this comment is made official during holy week.

    Im just tired of the apostasy in the vatican. The focus is as wrong as it could possibly get in holy week. Hopeless topic and even worse timing...

    Well, the church will overcome both the plague and pope Francis, but in the meantime we suffer.
    Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on us!

    Im observing the loth this lent and good Friday has been no exception. Its wonderful to contemplate on the love of Christ. He died for us! Glory to his name forever!
     
  16. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The world deserves worse than Covid-19. The Church as a group of people who do not live the faith very well deserves worse than Covid-19 too. But the Church is thankfully more than a group of people who do not live the faith very well. It's that realization, that the Church is the unsullied bride of Christ even with bad members like me, that keeps me in her. Perhaps that is why even some of the darkest of sinners remains attached, that even the most darkened by sin have a realization that the Church is actually holy at it's core, and they have a glimmer of grace acting in them that says they need to stay close. I donno.

    YACOD = Yet Another Commission On Deaconesses
    This one might finally study it to death.

    I'm going out for a long walk this morning. Try to get my head on straight. Then do some sanding on a piece of furniture I'm trying to restore. Then catch the Good Friday liturgy on youtube.
     
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