Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist

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fhansen

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I truly believe that what has happened is that the light has been in the world long enough now that man has had the chance to perceive it better than ever. And what this means is that, as a whole, the Church knows the nature and will of God better than ever, meaning it has a clearer understanding of the gospel than ever before.

Now this doesn't mean that we know what percentage of humankind will go to heaven and what percentage to hell. It just means that we have a greater understanding of God's love: of the profound, elaborate depth of this love for man, and of His will that none should perish. From there we can better understand the extent of His mercy-that in judging by the heart He's not going to torment someone, who's, say, lived an otherwise good life in service of others at times, eternally, just because they didn't know Him so perfectly because they didn't know Christ. Christ still provides the way, by accomplishing reconciliation between God and those men who do the best they can with whatever they're given.

Jesus came to reveal the Father-and overall we know Him better now. And the
Church will know Him even better as time goes on, perceiving and embracing the light more fully even as darkness continues to grow in our world at the same time. And that's the simple truth.

Sure am glad pual and others knew HOW serious it was that man needed to know CHRIST to be saved.
THEY turned the world upside down reaching as many as they could , going all over cities
being persecuted , tormented , killed , but OH true love sure desires none to perish
it preaches JESUS and HIM alone. this generation believes anything
so it can sleep better at night, for its lack of preaching JESUS as the only way.
Well , paul sure made one thing clear , he is free from the blood of men cause he warned men.
Not so much with the mindset of today. My advice , start afresh in Christ
read ONLY the bible and pray for strength daily to speak as we should
and reach the lost as we ought. Interfaith is of satan and I shun its concepts to hell.
And because I love all , I warn all.
The Church will always continue to preach Christ, while recognizing that God holds man accountable for what he knows. Luke 12:48 contains a principle:

"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
 
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SolomonVII

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He made the assertion that "The church has been going down that road for at least a decade now. When the great majority of members have absorbed the idea that a good pagan who never hear of Christ but tries to do his best according to his own religion is going to be saved . . ."
In terms of the church going down that road for at least a decade now, that is very close to the exact same assertion that the OP article makes.
I don't find the article to be anti-Catholic, but rather a defender of traditional Catholic theology that is highly critical of this tendency.


I said that his assertion was BS. The person who asserts something as true has the burden of proof. He made the assertion, so he carries the burden of proof to establish that it is true. And the statement is BS as far as I and others are concerned until he proves otherwise.
I find that he is basing his opinion on the words of Pope Francis, which I have subsequently quoted. It would seem very much that the pope holding the view that good pagans could be in heaven, coupled with the claim of the OP article that this very same pope has just appointed a universalists, as a sound evidence that this is the direction that a goodly portion of the Church, if not the majority, is headed down.
Again, I have given my own anecdotal experience that this is very much the opinion of the bishop that gave my own confirmation classes held.
It is not a poll, but it is at least a sound consideration of the evidence at hand to come to the belief that where the pope stands, and where the churchmen that he appoints stands, is fairly mainstream to what Catholics believe.
Now, can I prove that the motivation behind his statement is because of his anti-Catholic bias? No. I cannot prove that. My opinion is based primarily on his long history of writing false things about the Church in this forum. And if you think that my accusation is BS, or that I have a persecution complex, I am perfectly fine with that. You can disavow away to your heart's content, because I did not ask for your approval nor do I need it
I don't think that anyone has ever mistaken Albion for a Catholic cheerleader complete with pom poms and back flips. I do think that his comments on the issue are backed up with enough evidence that to dismiss them outright as anti-Catholic bs is a cop out to what is really happening in Catholicism right now.
If you discuss the issue rather than the poster, you will note that his assertion is at least legitimate.
Oh, and your challenge for two Catholics best to debate this in an all-Catholic forum is impossible for me. My own personal experience is that criticism of the pope is not tolerated in Catholic Forums, and that my criticisms of liberal Catholics is not tolerated in OBOB. I am dead to the former, and the latter is dead to me.
 
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frienden thalord

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The Church will always continue to preach Christ, while recognizing that God holds man accountable for what he knows. Luke 12:48 contains a principle:

"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
I am not asking to be mean. But how on earth can you not see the extreme fault in this pope.
I would think it would be so obvious. Nowhere does GOD want us kissing korans
or praying with other religions as though we worship the same GOD.
The video. Did you even watch what the pope said. This man is very clever .
But I don't just warn out against him. Most all the churches have slummed deep .
Why cant we just Believe as a child what JESUS said. And stop listening to men
explain away his sayings. Look what mos have done with marriage and remarriage.
let alone suing , self defense , man just keeps chaning everything
and the masses just keep following.
People act like their leader can have no fault. Me, I test every man .
NO man is infallible and all men must be tested and if in error corrected.
 
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PeaceB

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In terms of the church going down that road for at least a decade now, that is very close to the exact same assertion that the OP article makes.
I don't find the article to be anti-Catholic, but rather a defender of traditional Catholic theology that is highly critical of this tendency.

I find that he is basing his opinion on the words of Pope Francis, which I have subsequently quoted. It would seem very much that the pope holding the view that good pagans could be in heaven, coupled with the claim of the OP article that this very same pope has just appointed a universalists, as a sound evidence that this is the direction that a goodly portion of the Church, if not the majority, is headed down.
Again, I have given my own anecdotal experience that this is very much the opinion of the bishop that gave my own confirmation classes held.
It is not a poll, but it is at least a sound consideration of the evidence at hand to come to the belief that where the pope stands, and where the churchmen that he appoints stands, is fairly mainstream to what Catholics believe.

I don't think that anyone has ever mistaken Albion for a Catholic cheerleader complete with pom poms and back flips. I do think that his comments on the issue are backed up with enough evidence that to dismiss them outright as anti-Catholic bs is a cop out to what is really happening in Catholicism right now.
If you discuss the issue rather than the poster, you will note that his assertion is at least legitimate.
Nothing that Pope Francis stated, nor anything quoted in the article, nor the anecdotal experience of one Catholic on the planet Earth, suffices as plausible evidence to support an assertion that Pope Francis or the person he just appointed are universalists, or that a great majority of Catholics believe that "all good pagans will be saved." You are grasping at straws, with all due respect.

Oh, and your challenge for two Catholics best to debate this in an all-Catholic forum is impossible for me. My own personal experience is that criticism of the pope is not tolerated in Catholic Forums, and that my criticisms of liberal Catholics is not tolerated in OBOB. I am dead to the former, and the latter is dead to me.
Then I guess you will have to hang out with your Protestant friends in the general forums to issue criticisms against Pope Francis and other Catholics who are not in accord with your private interpretation of Scripture and Tradition.
 
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redleghunter

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Didn't the Apostles think "soon" meant "in their lifetimes"? Weren't they almost sure of it? Didn't Jesus imply it? Didn't Revelation being addressed to the church leaders of the time indicate that?

Evidence indicates that was supposed to happen around 2,000 years ago. It never did.

What evidence are you referring to? The apostle Peter said the following :

2 Peter 3: New King James Version (NKJV)

3 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
 
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redleghunter

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Tell that to Gallup which surveyed all the major denominations and found that Roman Catholics are WAY ahead of all others when it comes to believing that anyone can be saved through being good, even if they never knew of Christ. Only 9% disagreed with the proposition.
Did Gallup ask if the sentiment extended to Lutherans or any Protestant denominations? :)
 
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SolomonVII

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Nothing that Pope Francis stated, nor anything quoted in the article, nor the anecdotal experience of one Catholic on the planet Earth, suffices as plausible evidence to support an assertion that Pope Francis or the person he just appointed are universalists, or that a great majority of Catholics believe that "all good pagans will be saved." You are grasping at straws, with all due respect.

The title of the thread states that the pope appointed a universalist. The article itself was more nuanced than that. You would have to read it though to find out how.
Albion however did not state that the pope was a universalist, even though that is what you yourself have tried to morph his words into saying.
And, the pope did say something to the effect that all good pagans will be saved.
Given that the pope is, supposedly, mainstream Catholic, it is, at least, hardly "anti-Catholic bs" to personally observe that this is the direction that the Church is going.
Hellfire is just not a big theme at any Catholic masses any more. My own sense is that a significant minority, if not the majority of Catholics, and Christians in general, cannot any longer really believe in a God who allows sentient being to be eternally tortured in hell for an eternity. I have been a part of those discussions for quite some time now. I don't know of any poll, but my own sense is that Albion is not too far off the mark in his own observation on that.
I could be wrong, as could Albion. Any evidence that you may provide to prove us wrong by the numbers would be welcomed. Even with such evidence, that is hardly proof for your contention that this is all anti-Catholic bs.
So this is not grasping at straws here. This is drawing conclusions from personal observation and facts as they present themselves.

Then I guess you will have to hang out with your Protestant friends in the general forums to issue criticisms against Pope Francis and other Catholics who are not in accord with your private interpretation of Scripture and Tradition.

It would seem to me that by describing an accurate paraphrase of the pope himself as anti-Catholic bs, your own reaction to that post is more scathing criticism against Pope Francis than anything else that I have read posted here so far.

And what I have to do, and what I chose to do, are two different things.
I am not banned from OBOB. I just did not find the general discussion there either all that Catholic, or all that edifying. This was not always the case. Maybe it is not the case now. I have no desire to find out anymore.

Further, what is my own private interpretation of Scripture and Tradition by the way?
Where have I offered it here?


So far, all of your accusations against others here have been absolutely groundless. Talk about grasping at straws. The straw is all in your own eye
 
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Rhamiel

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interfaith will lead the world right to the son of perdtion.
who by PEACE shall destroy many.

I agree with you
there is far too much "interfaith" as you call it
the ecumenical movement is far out of hand
those who have been tricked by Satan are following a counterfeit Gospel
following false prophets, men of blood, men of rebellion, who rejected the ancient faith 500 years ago
people need to return to the ancient faith and the ways of the early Church, giving up those innovations that have perverted the true Gospel, twisting it into something more palatable for "modern man"

People should refrain from demonizing universalism as somehow a conspiracy. Some people hold that belief sincerely.
some people sincerely hold that Jesus was just a very good moral teacher and not divine in any way
just because a belief is deeply held does not mean it is true or worthy of respect
 
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FireDragon76

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Catholics have been preaching this stuff since Vatican II. The theology is consistent with that, in fact.

Most mainline Protestants would have similar sentiments.

I wouldn't exactly call this "universalism".
 
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HeLeadethMe

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"Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist - All Men Will Be Saved - to Replace Müller as Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith"

"...The twentieth and twenty-first century has seen a growth in universalist sentiment within the Catholic Church."

Mahound's Paradise: Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist - All Men Will Be Saved - to Replace Müller as Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

Thanks for this information.....for those who know the Lord this comes as no surprise, we have been made aware by the Lord that this is the direction all churches as well as the world are being herded into, they are being sent a strong delusion, and the son of perdition will soon be revealed as head of the lie.

Christianity per se has been rotting from within in the end of the age and this is why the Lord has been warning His flock for at least around 20 years or so now that I'm aware of, to come out of her and partake not of her sins, nor receive of her plagues, and seek His face in the wilderness for the new thing that He is going to do.

Don't think for a minute that He will not hand His own churches over to perdition and destruction......His glory left the temple of ancient Israel who is our ensample and gave it over to be utterly destroyed by the Romans. In the evangelical world there has been scandal after scandal for years, God exposing and turning over the logs and exposing the rot within, in order to get His people to wake up to the reality of what they are following, and get out while they still can before He gives it over to the strong delusion. The Roman church is no different, rotting to the core, and there is yet another pedophile scandal that just broke reaching right into the vatican....

Pope's close aide charged, bringing sex abuse scandal to Vatican | Reuters

If there are any left who know the Lord.......where the bible calls us to know the Lord, and to be born again of His Spirit, and receive His Spirit.......then we need to make an exodus out of all these erring church organizations, according to several scriptures that instruct us accordingly, if we have eyes to see and ears to hear, and follow the one true Shepherd of our souls.

Revelation 18:1-6 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
 
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HeLeadethMe

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That is not proof that Pope Francis is a universalist. It is a video that is meant to encourage dialogue among people of different faiths.

PeaceB......this might come as a surprise to you, but we are not called to "dialogue with people of different faiths"...........we are just called to preach the gospel that whosoever will may hear, and make disciples of Jesus Christ......who is the ONLY Way and Truth and Life. It is only through the Son that a person may come to the Father. No one else died to make atonement for our wretched sins and iniquities, and rose from the dead as firstfruits of the resurrection to come. If we really love people and don't want them to perish then that is what we have to tell them......the truth. It is not for believers in Christ Jesus to follow the lost and the blind to perdition, they don't need our company...unfortunately they have plenty of company as it is.
 
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HeLeadethMe

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Didn't the Apostles think "soon" meant "in their lifetimes"? Weren't they almost sure of it? Didn't Jesus imply it? Didn't Revelation being addressed to the church leaders of the time indicate that?

Evidence indicates that was supposed to happen around 2,000 years ago. It never did.

2 Peter 3

I guess it won't be long now.
 
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John 1720

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Didn't the Apostles think "soon" meant "in their lifetimes"? Weren't they almost sure of it? Didn't Jesus imply it? Didn't Revelation being addressed to the church leaders of the time indicate that?

Evidence indicates that was supposed to happen around 2,000 years ago. It never did.
Hi Crystal,
Actually not. While believers are always supposed to be ready for Christ's return, as to the day and hour, Jesus taught us that no one knows. The Gospel evidence only indicates to us that the Gospel must be preached to all nations (the Greek word is ethne' which means ethnicities or people groups) and then Jesus said the end shall come. God has extended His mercy towards people of every tongue with the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ. There has been an exponential rise in penetrating these people groups but we still need to pray that the Lord would send more of us into the harvest. We do praise God for the great progress we see however. We just need to keep praying! For He will come in a flash to separate His from the world's and of this we can be sure.

  • Matthew 24:6 “And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
  • Matthew 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
  • καὶ κηρυχθήσεται τοῦτο τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τῆς βασιλείας ἐν ὅλῃ τῇ οἰκουμένῃ εἰς μαρτύριον πᾶσιν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν [ethne'] καὶ τότε ἥξει τὸ τέλος
  • Matthew 24:24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
  • Mat 24:25 "See, I (JESUS) have told you beforehand.
  • Mat 24:27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
  • Global Statistics :: Joshua Project
 
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PeaceB

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The title of the thread states that the pope appointed a universalist. The article itself was more nuanced than that. You would have to read it though to find out how.
Albion however did not state that the pope was a universalist, even though that is what you yourself have tried to morph his words into saying.
And, the pope did say something to the effect that all good pagans will be saved.
Given that the pope is, supposedly, mainstream Catholic, it is, at least, hardly "anti-Catholic bs" to personally observe that this is the direction that the Church is going.
Hellfire is just not a big theme at any Catholic masses any more. My own sense is that a significant minority, if not the majority of Catholics, and Christians in general, cannot any longer really believe in a God who allows sentient being to be eternally tortured in hell for an eternity. I have been a part of those discussions for quite some time now. I don't know of any poll, but my own sense is that Albion is not too far off the mark in his own observation on that.
I could be wrong, as could Albion. Any evidence that you may provide to prove us wrong by the numbers would be welcomed. Even with such evidence, that is hardly proof for your contention that this is all anti-Catholic bs.
So this is not grasping at straws here. This is drawing conclusions from personal observation and facts as they present themselves.



It would seem to me that by describing an accurate paraphrase of the pope himself as anti-Catholic bs, your own reaction to that post is more scathing criticism against Pope Francis than anything else that I have read posted here so far.

And what I have to do, and what I chose to do, are two different things.
I am not banned from OBOB. I just did not find the general discussion there either all that Catholic, or all that edifying. This was not always the case. Maybe it is not the case now. I have no desire to find out anymore.

Further, what is my own private interpretation of Scripture and Tradition by the way?
Where have I offered it here?


So far, all of your accusations against others here have been absolutely groundless. Talk about grasping at straws. The straw is all in your own eye
Our discussion is not worth any more of my time. Have a good week.
 
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PeaceB

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PeaceB......this might come as a surprise to you, but we are not called to "dialogue with people of different faiths"
Preaching at people without even trying to understand where they are coming from or what they believe (otherwise known as "dialogue") is not an effective way of sharing the gospel, if that is what you mean.

And yes, I know that there are some popes in the past that you can drag out to support your position.
 
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Gabriel Anton

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I must say these quotes are very wise and in depth, I haven't watched the video provided, but I will, love these quotes they are very deep:heart:

Peace be with you.

I know why you are Blessed.

God bless you.
 
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JoeP222w

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"Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist - All Men Will Be Saved - to Replace Müller as Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith"

"...The twentieth and twenty-first century has seen a growth in universalist sentiment within the Catholic Church."

Mahound's Paradise: Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist - All Men Will Be Saved - to Replace Müller as Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith


Simply further evidence that Rome is not following the truth of Christ.
 
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HeLeadethMe

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Preaching at people without even trying to understand where they are coming from or what they believe (otherwise known as "dialogue") is not an effective way of sharing the gospel, if that is what you mean.

And yes, I know that there are some popes in the past that you can drag out to support your position.

We already understand where everyone is coming from, everyone is coming from going their own way.........we all like sheep have gone astray, each one to his own way.

I don't know what you mean by dragging out popes from the past to support what position....? You might have misunderstood something I said.
 
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Albion

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I suppose it all depends on what the active ingredient in the salvation process is. Not everyone believes it's Christ.
That's true, but the topic concerns Controversial Christian Theology and it was the opinions of Christians that we were looking at.
 
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