Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist

[A sojourner in Christ]

Papa francisco is unpredictable, he acts according to his vision.

"Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist - All Men Will Be Saved - to Replace Müller as Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith"

"...The twentieth and twenty-first century has seen a growth in universalist sentiment within the Catholic Church

Universal salvation is appealing and tempting, it says all can be saved--who doesn't like that so let's dare we hope? Nay But to regard it as doctrine is too dangerous due to silence of Holy writ and also there's no much affirmation by Church fathers either save few. In simpler terms in words of St Maximus of Confessor:

"One should pray that Apokatastasis is true, but one would be foolish to teach it as doctrine."

 

[gordonhooker]

Interfaith dialogue is considered a bad thing by some, evidently.

Yes, but only by small minded bigots.

 

[WilliamBo]

I can see why this is such a deception... I DO want all men to be saved, and I can see how it ''seems'' like a ''loving'' God is going to save everyone. But God reveals to His people that isn't the case.

I feel a bit of ''terror'' in that I don't feel fully ready yet- I am scrambling and praying daily for God to do WHATEVER He has to do to make me ready like change my DNA, change my brain chemistry, whatever... there is nothing good in me and I am constantly praying for an obedient and faithful heart and for God to ''make a way'' for me to repent and be PERMANENTLY changed into His kingdom. I feel urgency in my spirit and I am constantly praying things like ''God, please make it impossible for me [and my family] to NOT repent of everything. Please make it impossible for me to NOT be saved.''

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Didn't the Apostles think "soon" meant "in their lifetimes"? Weren't they almost sure of it? Didn't Jesus imply it? Didn't Revelation being addressed to the church leaders of the time indicate that?

Evidence indicates that was supposed to happen around 2,000 years ago. It never did.

God is outside of time so when he says I am coming soon, 2,000 years is like 2 days to him... I believe he will come in my lifetime but even if he does not he is STILL the Almighty and he is STILL in control! You can bank on that!

 

[Beaker]

Matthew 7 v21 -23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Beaker]

Not much to offer here except prayer

The sooner the better

 

[WilliamBo]

God is outside of time so when he says I am coming soon, 2,000 years is like 2 days to him... I believe he will come in my lifetime but even if he does not he is STILL the Almighty and he is STILL in control! You can bank on that!

Part of me thinks the end of the world is NOT soon at all as there is MUCH development that is yet to come like a super futuristic society with those futuristic buildings you see in movies like ''Divergent'', etc. and incredible technology like hover-crafts, floating cars, etc....

or the opposite, it IS going to happen in our generation because Obama has all the signs of an anti-Christ figure AND he is coming back into the political scene by running for the governor of Virginia, and then will run for world leader and establish a world-religion...

 

[CrystalDragon]

Crystal, you really need to expand your academic reading on Eschatology, see what else is out there. There are several views. Just sayin'

You have a point there. Any suggestions on where to start?

 

[Tree of Life]

"Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist - All Men Will Be Saved - to Replace Müller as Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith"

"...The twentieth and twenty-first century has seen a growth in universalist sentiment within the Catholic Church."

Mahound's Paradise: Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist - All Men Will Be Saved - to Replace Müller as Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

Forgive me for my ignorance concerning the Roman Church...

But do they actually ordain priests that disagree with their own teaching so significantly? Universalist doctrine would appear to contradict many things in the official Catechism of the Catholic Church. Can a priest keep their ordination and teach contrary to the Roman Church like this?

 

[Rhamiel]

Interfaith dialogue is considered a bad thing by some, evidently.

Any dialogue without the aim of converting non believers to the true Faith shows a lack of love for them by ignoring concern for their immortal soul and letting them persist in heresy and error

You have a point there. Any suggestions on where to start?

The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of Future Life

 

[SaintNick]

The Vatican and the pope are a complete sham. They are evil incarnate.

 

[hedrick]

Did anyone follow the reference and actually read what the man wrote? He's not a universalist. He hopes that in the end no one will be lost, but says that the possibility of damnation is real, and thus that we can't say that everyone will definitely be saved. That's a common view, and is orthodox in both the West and the East.

 

[dqhall]

"Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist - All Men Will Be Saved - to Replace Müller as Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith"

"...The twentieth and twenty-first century has seen a growth in universalist sentiment within the Catholic Church."

Mahound's Paradise: Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist - All Men Will Be Saved - to Replace Müller as Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

This is hard to believe. I read Pope Francis is appointing Ladaria Ferrer, a Jesuit, to the position. Pope Francis is a Jesuit. The founder of the Jesuits was extremely prejudiced against Protestants. People are not allowed to receive communion unless they are confirmed Catholic. The Catholics have been holding to a doctrine that salvation is offered through the Catholic Church alone (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus). There is a Roman bias that the Catholic Church is the church with a lineage traced back to the apostles. My mother was told that if she wanted to go to heaven, she should attend Mass.

Universalism is something like the preacher gets up and tells the congregation, "You are all going to heaven. Jesus paid the price on the cross. You debt has been paid. Your sins are forgiven. He is your sacrifice." It is not that easy. Jesus taught, "Many are called, but few are chosen." God will keep the good and cut off the bad; like a vine pruner cuts the unproductive branches and keeps the productive branches.

 

[hedrick]

This is hard to believe. I read Pope Francis is appointing Ladaria Ferrer, a Jesuit, to the position. Pope Francis is a Jesuit. The founder of the Jesuits was extremely prejudiced against Protestants. People are not allowed to receive communion unless they are confirmed Catholic. The Catholics have been holding to a doctrine that salvation is offered through the Catholic Church alone (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus).

Recent popes have said that non-Catholics (and even non-Christians) may be able to be saved. They are considered to have a relationship with the Catholic Church.

 

[gordonhooker]

Did anyone follow the reference and actually read what the man wrote? He's not a universalist. He hopes that in the end no one will be lost, but says that the possibility of damnation is real, and thus that we can't say that everyone will definitely be saved. That's a common view, and is orthodox in both the West and the East.

Yea thanks hedrick someone else actually read and comprehended the article.

 

[GingerBeer]

It seems churlish to contend that Francis is in the wrong for promoting interfaith dialogue.

 

[gordonhooker]

Matthew 7 v21 -23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I can do that to....

Now what can I use to try and prove my point (all will be saved)?

Mic. 7:18 ¶ Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity
and passing over the transgression
of the remnant of your possession?
He does not retain his anger forever,
because he delights in showing clemency.

Mark 13:10 And the good news must first be proclaimed to all nations.

Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for see—I am bringing you good news of great joy for all the people:

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

John 12:47 I do not judge anyone who hears my words and does not keep them, for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

 

[ClementofA]

Matthew 7 v21 -23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

How do Catholics hopeful of universalism understand this passage? Those who "depart" go to purgatory temporarily?

Where does Matthew 7:22-23 say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity? I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end." ?

Actually His remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to.

"Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to endless torments it's next to nothing.

Mt.7:21 does not deny that all will eventually do God's will and enter the kingdom.

Everyone starts out not doing God's will. Does that mean no one can enter the Kingdom of God and it will be empty forever?

The verse places no time limits on when one can do the will of God.

Matthew 7:23 refers to a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

Forgive me for my ignorance concerning the Roman Church...

But do they actually ordain priests that disagree with their own teaching so significantly? Universalist doctrine would appear to contradict many things in the official Catechism of the Catholic Church. Can a priest keep their ordination and teach contrary to the Roman Church like this?

The man's quoted words in the article seem to qualify him as one who is hopeful of universalism, not a universalist. It seems many Roman Catholics, the Pope included, believe this has always been the official position of the RCC.

 

[ClementofA]

Universalism is something like the preacher gets up and tells the congregation, "You are all going to heaven. Jesus paid the price on the cross. You debt has been paid. Your sins are forgiven. He is your sacrifice." It is not that easy. Jesus taught, "Many are called, but few are chosen." God will keep the good and cut off the bad; like a vine pruner cuts the unproductive branches and keeps the productive branches.

Actually some universalists, such as amongst the Early Church Fathers, spoke of the possibility of people going to "hell" for many ages before being saved.