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Pope endorses same-sex civil unions in new documentary film

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Michie, Oct 21, 2020.

  1. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rotten even.
     
  2. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    Well God acts outside of genetics, so even if the Pope is committed to the idea that the man's homosexuality was willed by God it does not necessarily follow that the Pope believes that homosexuality is a genetic condition.

    Catholicism would say that disordered homosexual desire is not willed according to God's antecedent will, just as Original Sin is not willed according to God's antecedent will. Of course they are willed according to his consequent or permissive will, for they are allowed to exist. Francis is probably waffling on that idea, which is misleading to say the least.

    In layman's terms: God does not will sin or sinful inclinations.
     
  3. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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  4. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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  5. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have way from my computer all day, but was surprised when I heard the news on the radio at 9:30 am. Why did he do it? My guess that he genuinely feels for the gay community and the trials that they must endure, especially in certain countries, and this is probably his way of showing his concern for them.
     
  6. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He can show concern in a way that does not sell out the faith. Or he could have.
     
  7. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I do not know that he is an outright heretic for expressing such views. It is probably a gray area, as he is not trying to change the Church teaching on marriage itself.
     
  8. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    It is not the first time Pope Francis has contravened Church teaching in the matter of homosexuality, but it is one of his clearest statements contravening established Church teaching. In 2003, in a document by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) and approved and ordered published by Pope St. John Paul II, the Church issued specific guidance on the need to reject homosexual civil union proposals. The document called “Considerations regarding proposals to give legal recognition to unions between homosexual persons,” states that “all Catholics are obliged to oppose the legal recognition of homosexual unions.”

    The Catholic Church teaches, moreover, that homosexual acts are “intrinsically disordered” and that respect for homosexuals “cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behaviour or to legal recognition of homosexual unions.”

    Catholic News Agency reports that the film includes the “story of the pontiff encouraging two Italian men in a same-sex relationship to raise their children in their parish church.” Speaking of his pastoral approach in an interview with filmmaker Evgeny Afineevsky, the Pope said, “Homosexuals have a right to be a part of the family. They’re children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out, or be made miserable because of it.”

    LifeSite has contacted the Vatican Press Office and several Cardinals for comment but has not yet received responses.

    Pope Francis calls for homosexual civil unions, bashes Trump in new film
     
  9. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your point is well taken and again, I was surprised by the news. He must feel that he is on solid ground for making such a statement, though that is probably debatable and the SSPX folks will have a field day with this matter, let alone the Sedevacantists who insist that the chair of Peter has been vacant for decades.
     
  10. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Michie - He is certainly going against his two predecessors with this action. I suppose that he can claim that their teaching on the issue of civil unions was not ex cathedra and that therefore he has the right to express a different point of view. I do feel for all of you that are upset and I have no easy answer for you.
     
  11. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's not just the SSPX and the even more extreme sedevacantists. Every garden variety anti-Catholic will be having a field day with this. It's the pope shooting his foot off. It's a massive mistake by a pope who is about as responsible for his words as Donald Trump in a tweetstorm.

    He needs to retire.
     
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  12. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He has a right to express any old opinion he wants. But I suspect God has some expectations. I have for a few years considered pope Francis to be a bad pope. Still the pope but a bad one. I'm ready to consider now whether he is also a heretic. Not just confused but a flaming heretic.
     
  13. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    While some may be surprised to see Pope Francis advocating for homosexual civil unions when such a position contradicts perennial Church teaching, the Pope’s move comes as no surprise to those who have closely followed him on this issue:

    • Pope Francis has promoted the notoriously pro-homosexual Jesuit Fr. James Martin – who was made a Vatican consultant during this pontificate and a speaker at the World Meeting of Families in Ireland and met with him personally in an audience. Fr. Martin has stated that Pope Francis has gone out of his way to appoint “gay-friendly” bishops and cardinals in the Catholic Church.
    • In July 2018, Pope Francis sent a three-page letter “blessing” and endorsing a Catholic ethics conference co-organized by Jesuit Father James Keenan, a public promoter of same-sex “marriage.” The conference featured many feminist and pro-LGBT speakers.
    • In March 2018, a French priest announcedin a televised interview that Pope Francis approved of his blessing of homosexual couples.
    • In February, one of the Pope’s top nine advisor cardinals suggested that spiritual encouragement of homosexual couples should be undertaken and blessings for homosexual couples should not be ruled out.
    • In a book-length interview in September 2017, Pope Francis signaled support for legal recognition of same-sex civil unions. “Let us call things by their names,” he said. “Matrimony is between a man and a woman. This is the precise term. Let us call the same-sex union a ‘civil union.’”
    • On October 2, 2016, Pope Francis referredto a woman who underwent a sex-change operation as a “man.” He referred to her as having “married” another woman and admitted to inviting them to and receiving them at the Vatican in 2015, describing the couple as “happy.” Clarifying his use of pronouns, the pope said, “He that was her but is he.”
    • Despite the avalanche of evidence of harmto the Church from the Pope’s “who am I to judge” remark on his first plane interview in 2013, he repeated the line in June 2016 while misrepresenting the Catechism on homosexuality.
    • In 2014, Pope Francis appointed Bishop Blase Cupich as Archbishop of Chicagodespite his reputation for telling priests not to join 40 Days for Life. After he demonstrated his dissent from Catholic teaching on homosexuality, saying homosexual couples should be given Holy Communion, Cupich was, nevertheless, named a cardinal.
    • When the United States nuncio had pro-family hero Kim Davis meet with Pope Francis at the nunciature during his USA papal visit, Davis was refused permission to take photos of the meeting. When the media asked the Vatican about the meeting they first refused to confirm it, and after some time said that “the only real audiencegranted by the Pope at the nunciature (embassy) was with one of his former students and his family.” The Pope’s former student, Yayo Grassi, was there with his sister, mother, and his homosexual partner. They took not only photos but also video in which Pope Francis can be seen embracing Grassi and his homosexual partner.
    • In May 2014, Pope Francis concelebrated Mass with and kissed the hand of a leading homosexual activist priest campaigning for changes in the Church’s teaching on homosexuality.
    • Cardinal Godfried Danneels, the archbishop emeritus of Brussels, was a personal appointment by Pope Francis to the Synods of Bishops on the family in 2014 and 2015. In addition to wearing rainbow liturgical vestments and being caught on tape concealing clergy homosexual sex abuse, Danneels said in 2013 of the passage of gay “marriage”: “I think it’s a positive development that states are free to open up civil marriage for gays if they want.”
     
  14. Davidnic

    Davidnic Well-Known Member Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    122362839_813351656148993_6140788319456664210_n.jpg
     
  15. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    ABC's World News Tonight just reported that Pope Francis supported civil unions before he became Pope. I knew that he was described as a moderate as Archbishop, but did not know of his endorsement of civil unions back then.
     
  16. Davidnic

    Davidnic Well-Known Member Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    From what I understand it was a last ditch attempt to offer a compromise to same-sex marriage. Perhaps back then he started talking himself into justifying it.
     
  17. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We cannot know the heart and soul of another person, but my guess is that Pope Francis does fear God.
     
  18. narnia59

    narnia59 Regular Member Supporter

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    Do we know for a fact that the Pope told that man that God made him gay? I know this man says this but it was a private conversation and to my knowledge the Pope hasn't confirmed that.

    Perhaps what the Pope did was to affirm Catholic teaching that he recognizes the man may not have made a choice to be gay.

    Those are two different things. It's quite possible the Pope was affirming that his same sex attraction may indeed not be a choice but a result of his fallen nature, and the person heard I didn't choose this so the Pope told me that God made me gay.

    I'm not trying to be argumentative but I just think that is a distinct possibility and we shouldn't accept that someone isn't deliberately misleading or sincerely misinterpreting.

    And yes, it would be nice if the Pope came out and said no I didn't say that, but there also may be pastoral reasons he doesn't feel that he can do that regarding a private conversation.
     
  19. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    Well it’s very charitable for you to say. But the apologetic days of old are over for me. Pope Francis’ actions and lack of clarification speaks for itself in my book. I admittedly think on the more pessimistic side when it comes to Pope Francis. God forgive me but I’m not going to be dishonest about it. He needs to speak up for the faithful and clarify. Which he feels no desire to do. He could stop all this media speculation and confusion himself but he refuses to do so. Wonder why??
     
  20. lismore

    lismore Maranatha

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    Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--(John 1:12).
     
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