Pope Cites French Epic Poem to Prove Christianity Is as Violent as Islam

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This article involves exploring the history involving the Pope’s comments.

Start article:

BY ROBERT SPENCER NOVEMBER 23, 2019


The indefatigable apologist for Islam Pope Francis on Monday issued yet another mea culpa to Muslims, saying: “A scene from The Song of Roland comes to me as a symbol, when the Christians defeat the Muslims and line them up in front of the baptismal font, with one holding a sword. And the Muslims had to choose between baptism or the sword. That is what we Christians did.”

Was it really? The Song of Roland is actually a work of fiction, a French epic poem loosely based on the Battle of Roncevaux Pass between Muslim invaders and Christian defenders in the year 778. As The History of Jihad From Muhammad to ISIS shows, in the eleventh century, three hundred years after the battle, The Song of Roland appeared, describing the heroism of Charlemagne’s nephew Roland, who is leading the rear guard of Charlemagne’s forces and is caught up in the Muslim ambush.


Roland has an oliphant, a horn made of an elephant’s tusk, which he can use to call for help, but he initially declines to do so, thinking it would be cowardly. Finally, Roland does blow his horn. Charlemagne, way ahead of the rear guard, nonetheless hears Roland’s horn and hurries back, but it is too late: Roland and his men are dead, and the Muslims victorious. Charlemagne, however, pursues and vanquishes the Muslims, and captures Saragossa.


Thus the legend. The Song of Roland was enormously popular and inculcated in the Christians who sang and celebrated it what came to be known (in the European Middle Ages) as knightly virtues: loyalty, courage, and perseverance, even in the face of overwhelming odds. These were virtues that would be needed if Europe was to hold out against the ever-advancing jihad.

But those days are long gone, and Europe is no longer holding out against the jihad. Now the pope is much more interested in defending Islam than Christianity. In September 2017, Pope Francis met in the Vatican with Dr. Muhammad bin Abdul Karim Al-Issa, the secretary-general of the Muslim World League (MWL), a group that has been linked to the financing of jihad terror. During the meeting, al-Issa thanked the pope for his “fair positions” on what he called the “false claims that link extremism and violence to Islam.”

Why had there been this “five-year lull”? Because “the Cairo-based Al-Azhar froze talks with the Vatican to protest comments by then-Pope Benedict XVI.” What did Benedict say? Andrea Gagliarducci of the Catholic News Agency explains that after a jihad terrorist murdered 23 Christians in a church in Alexandria 2011, Benedict decried “terrorism” and the “strategy of violence” against Christians, and called for the Christians of the Middle East to be protected.

Al-Tayeb was furious. He railed Benedict for his “interference” in Egypt’s affairs and warned of a “negative political reaction” to the Pope’s remarks. In a statement, Al-Azhar denouncedthe pope’s “repeated negative references to Islam and his claims that Muslims persecute those living among them in the Middle East.”

Benedict stood his ground, and that was that. But in September 2013, al-Azhar announced that Pope Francis had sent a personal message to al-Tayeb. In it, according to al-Azhar, Francis declared his respect for Islam and his desire to achieve “mutual understanding between the world’s Christians and Muslims in order to build peace and justice.” At the same time, Al Tayyeb met with the Apostolic Nuncio to Egypt, Mgr. Jean-Paul Gobel, and told him in no uncertain terms that speaking about Islam in a negative manner was a “red line” that must not be crossed.

Much more at the link:
Pope Cites French Epic Poem to Prove Christianity Is as Violent as Islam
 

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,550
8,436
up there
✟307,281.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
No one in earth come even close to following God's will so this is hardly a surprise. And God created everybody. It is man that likes to divide. The God of Abraham is already the God of the Jews and Muslims. If Christians were to join the family, what then?
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No one in earth come even close to following God's will so this is hardly a surprise. And God created everybody. It is man that likes to divide. The God of Abraham is already the God of the Jews and Muslims. If Christians were to join the family, what then?
Did you read the piece?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,550
8,436
up there
✟307,281.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Yes, sounds like human politics to me. And division is a tradition of man, not God. Sure the Muslims demands no one criticise them, but the again the US doesn't like having their government questioned either. The point is the governance of man is always doomed to failure because even if one tries to work in the ways of the Kingdom, another will not. Too much fundamentalism out there in all religions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Philip_B
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,565
13,723
✟429,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
*Checks to make sure we're not on OBOB*

If the Roman Catholic Church had kept alive the synodal form of church government that is clearly present in the early Church (including at Rome for its first centuries), it wouldn't be hard to imagine that Pope Francis would've been at least censured by now, possibly deposed. It is their undoing (right now, in real time) that their own ecclesiology does not allow them to effectively deal with the seemingly endless avalanche of travesties, blasphemies, and scandals that seem to proceed from his mouth.

That said, "Pope Francis says something shockingly stupid and/or cringe-inducing that makes it sound like he's somehow actively anti-Christianity" is not news at this point. If only it were. Lord have mercy.
 
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,285
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,630.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
No one in earth come even close to following God's will so this is hardly a surprise. And God created everybody. It is man that likes to divide. The God of Abraham is already the God of the Jews and Muslims. If Christians were to join the family, what then?
Not true. "Allah" is the name of a number of gods that the pre-Muslims of the Middle East subscribed to. There is no way that Muslims follow the God of Abraham. Why would God command His followers to murder other His followers? That is exactly what the Qu'ran states and exactly what Muslims are doing all over the Muslim world. Some Muslim countries are safer than others. Indonesia tolerates non-Muslims, but increasingly less so. Mohamed hijacked religion to convince his followers that he was appointed by god to carry out a divine plan. It's a good plan. It has worked. If you want an early exit to this life, proclaim Christ openly in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan to name but a few.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,306
16,141
Flyoverland
✟1,237,234.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
The indefatigable apologist for Islam Pope Francis on Monday issued yet another mea culpa to Muslims, saying: “A scene from The Song of Roland comes to me as a symbol, when the Christians defeat the Muslims and line them up in front of the baptismal font, with one holding a sword. And the Muslims had to choose between baptism or the sword. That is what we Christians did.”
In the old days, not that many years ago either, the question "Is the Pope Catholic?" was a rhetorical question.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In the old days, not that many years ago either, the question "Is the Pope Catholic?" was a rhetorical question.
It seems at every turn of another week there’s something new.

I know it is hard to believe today but the Jesuits used to have conservative theologians. There were some aged conservative Jesuit priest professors at the Jesuit University I hail from. That was back in the late 80s though.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,306
16,141
Flyoverland
✟1,237,234.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
It seems at every turn of another week there’s something new.
More like every day. Something has gotta give. There is a big prayer and fasting event planned for St. Nicholas day. His day because he was not shy about what to do with Arius.
I know it is hard to believe today but the Jesuits used to have conservative theologians. There were some aged conservative Jesuit priest professors at the Jesuit University I hail from. That was back in the late 80s though.
There were many. Fr Hardon. Fr Most. Fr Sthokal. And there are some now too. Fr Fessio. Fr Pacwa. Fr Kubicki. And the Jesuits at the retreat house a few miles from here are a bastion of normal Catholicism, haven been chosen very carefully by Fr Sthokal over many years. Not all Jesuits are off the wall whacko. On average they are though, and it's sad.

Where was the Jesuit University you hailed from? I knew about St. Louis U. when I was in college a few miles west of there in the 70's.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hazelelponi
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
More like every day. Something has gotta give. There is a big prayer and fasting event planned for St. Nicholas day. His day because he was not shy about what to do with Arius.

There were many. Fr Hardon. Fr Most. Fr Sthokal. And there are some now too. Fr Fessio. Fr Pacwa. Fr Kubicki. And the Jesuits at the retreat house a few miles from here are a bastion of normal Catholicism, haven been chosen very carefully by Fr Sthokal over many years. Not all Jesuits are off the wall whacko. On average they are though, and it's sad.

Where was the Jesuit University you hailed from? I knew about St. Louis U. when I was in college a few miles west of there in the 70's.
Yes where I went the Jesuits were either right of Attila the Hun or left of Lenin. :)

I took an elective which sounded interesting one year. Called “Christ in history and politics.” Turned out to be a Liberation Theology course taught by a priest who called himself “a chaplain” for the Sandinista army when they were the revolutionaries.

Needless to say very interesting and combative class when I wore my ROTC uniform.

Oh I have a few Bee articles up.
 
Upvote 0

kiwimac

Bishop of the See of Aotearoa ROCCNZ;Theologian
Site Supporter
May 14, 2002
14,986
1,519
63
New Zealand
Visit site
✟592,518.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Utrecht
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
This article involves exploring the history involving the Pope’s comments.

Start article:

BY ROBERT SPENCER NOVEMBER 23, 2019


The indefatigable apologist for Islam Pope Francis on Monday issued yet another mea culpa to Muslims, saying: “A scene from The Song of Roland comes to me as a symbol, when the Christians defeat the Muslims and line them up in front of the baptismal font, with one holding a sword. And the Muslims had to choose between baptism or the sword. That is what we Christians did.”

Was it really? The Song of Roland is actually a work of fiction, a French epic poem loosely based on the Battle of Roncevaux Pass between Muslim invaders and Christian defenders in the year 778. As The History of Jihad From Muhammad to ISIS shows, in the eleventh century, three hundred years after the battle, The Song of Roland appeared, describing the heroism of Charlemagne’s nephew Roland, who is leading the rear guard of Charlemagne’s forces and is caught up in the Muslim ambush.


Roland has an oliphant, a horn made of an elephant’s tusk, which he can use to call for help, but he initially declines to do so, thinking it would be cowardly. Finally, Roland does blow his horn. Charlemagne, way ahead of the rear guard, nonetheless hears Roland’s horn and hurries back, but it is too late: Roland and his men are dead, and the Muslims victorious. Charlemagne, however, pursues and vanquishes the Muslims, and captures Saragossa.


Thus the legend. The Song of Roland was enormously popular and inculcated in the Christians who sang and celebrated it what came to be known (in the European Middle Ages) as knightly virtues: loyalty, courage, and perseverance, even in the face of overwhelming odds. These were virtues that would be needed if Europe was to hold out against the ever-advancing jihad.

But those days are long gone, and Europe is no longer holding out against the jihad. Now the pope is much more interested in defending Islam than Christianity. In September 2017, Pope Francis met in the Vatican with Dr. Muhammad bin Abdul Karim Al-Issa, the secretary-general of the Muslim World League (MWL), a group that has been linked to the financing of jihad terror. During the meeting, al-Issa thanked the pope for his “fair positions” on what he called the “false claims that link extremism and violence to Islam.”

Why had there been this “five-year lull”? Because “the Cairo-based Al-Azhar froze talks with the Vatican to protest comments by then-Pope Benedict XVI.” What did Benedict say? Andrea Gagliarducci of the Catholic News Agency explains that after a jihad terrorist murdered 23 Christians in a church in Alexandria 2011, Benedict decried “terrorism” and the “strategy of violence” against Christians, and called for the Christians of the Middle East to be protected.

Al-Tayeb was furious. He railed Benedict for his “interference” in Egypt’s affairs and warned of a “negative political reaction” to the Pope’s remarks. In a statement, Al-Azhar denouncedthe pope’s “repeated negative references to Islam and his claims that Muslims persecute those living among them in the Middle East.”

Benedict stood his ground, and that was that. But in September 2013, al-Azhar announced that Pope Francis had sent a personal message to al-Tayeb. In it, according to al-Azhar, Francis declared his respect for Islam and his desire to achieve “mutual understanding between the world’s Christians and Muslims in order to build peace and justice.” At the same time, Al Tayyeb met with the Apostolic Nuncio to Egypt, Mgr. Jean-Paul Gobel, and told him in no uncertain terms that speaking about Islam in a negative manner was a “red line” that must not be crossed.

Much more at the link:
Pope Cites French Epic Poem to Prove Christianity Is as Violent as Islam

Robert Spencer wouldn't know the truth if it bit him on the sit upon.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FireDragon76
Upvote 0

Basil the Great

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 9, 2009
4,766
4,085
✟721,243.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Green
He is trying in his own way to bridge the gap between Islam and Christianity and/or between Muslims and Christians. Maybe he is trying to protect the lives of those Christians who live in Muslim nations and may feel threatened? I am convinced that Pope Francis has good intentions. Whether his efforts will pay off in any meaningful way is yet to be determined.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Was it really? The Song of Roland is actually a work of fiction, a French epic poem loosely based on the Battle of Roncevaux Pass between Muslim invaders and Christian defenders in the year 778. As The History of Jihad From Muhammad to ISIS shows, in the eleventh century, three hundred years after the battle, The Song of Roland appeared, describing the heroism of Charlemagne’s nephew Roland, who is leading the rear guard of Charlemagne’s forces and is caught up in the Muslim ambush.
This is a tad inaccurate.

The Battle of Roncevaux pass was between the rearguard of Charlemagne's retreating forces and local Christian Basque forces, in all likelihood.

Charlemagne was the invader, as he had been invited to enter Spain to ally with some local Muslim Abbasid rulers to oppose the expansion of the Ummayad Emirate in Spain. His siege of Zaragossa had largely failed, and he was withdrawing after having been paid off. He decided to do so via the Basque country, an area that had broken away from the Duchy of Aquitaine; the latter that Charlemagne's father Pepin had brought to heel. Essentially he was trying to assert Carolingian rule in the area. His rearguard was ambushed in retaliation for Charlemagne's destruction of Pamplona.

The Song of Roland as an important part of the Matter of France, spins this into a Christian vs Muslim narrative for the poem - instead of a messy Carolingian Christians, Abbasid Muslims and some Visigothic Christians vs Ummayad Muslims, Basque Christians and some other indeterminate locals. Anyway, Charlemagne was not defending but invading - he would go on to carve out the Hispanic March to defend his Empire's Southern flank, that would eventually evolve into the Kingdom of Aragon (one half of the dual monarchy that would become Spain). He also never took Zaragossa.

The Pope's point was probably that Christians have also celebrated violent conversion in the past, even if this is a fictional account (and a defeat of Charlemagne to boot). The Reconquista in Spain certainly was quite violent. I don't know his original comments, but I would assume it would more be to reach a Live and Let Live attitude between groups in the Middle East, than Muslim Apologetics. Don't know though, but this article certainly misrepresents the historic background of the Song of Roland.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
He is trying in his own way to bridge the gap between Islam and Christianity and/or between Muslims and Christians. Maybe he is trying to protect the lives of those Christians who live in Muslim nations and may feel threatened? I am convinced that Pope Francis has good intentions. Whether his efforts will pay off in any meaningful way is yet to be determined.
It was Benedict who spoke out against a jihadist attack. That is what caused the pause in dialogue. Francis is acceding to the wishes of Al-Azhar which draw a “red line” on connecting Islam to violence. If Francis were to condemn violent Muslim extremists the pause in dialogue would happen again. Kind of difficult to have conversations of Christian persecution without calling out the violence against them.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Battle of Roncevaux pass was between the rearguard of Charlemagne's retreating forces and local Christian Basque forces, in all likelihood.
I believe Spencer was conducting the dialogue according to the Song of Roland. At least that is how it reads. I don’t think he was correcting the history of the players but pointing out the Pope was using the epic poem to point out Christian excesses.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,565
13,723
✟429,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Maybe he is trying to protect the lives of those Christians who live in Muslim nations and may feel threatened?

Christians who live in Muslim-majority nations already do that themselves. What good does Pope Francis do by putting down our religion in this way in front of non-believers who already consider themselves and their religion superior to us (morally, socially, etc)?

Why not let Middle Eastern/North African patriarchs (the Coptic popes, any of the Patriarchs of Antioch, etc.) speak for their own people? Pope Francis' people are in Europe, Latin America, and so on, where they generally don't have to deal with living Muslim-majority societies.

Hmmm...maybe it has something to do with the fact that the RC ecclesiology demands that all of these people (the Middle Eastern/North African Catholic bishops, priests, etc.) look up to Pope Francis to speak for them, as he is over all of them? They don't even let the Coptic Catholics recognize their patriarch as Pope, even though that title is traditional to all Patriarchs of Alexandria, as it was for centuries before it was ever applied in any kind of exclusive way to Rome. (The Greeks call their Patriarch of Egypt, HH Theodore, 'Pope' as well.)

I am convinced that Pope Francis has good intentions. Whether his efforts will pay off in any meaningful way is yet to be determined.

I believe it was St. John Chrysostom who said that the road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops. I don't see how that magically excludes the Pope (Bishop) of Rome just because he means well. So do the native patriarchs who have to kiss his ring, but at least they are from and live in the societies that Pope Francis is supposedly trying to defend by making all us out to be terrible bloodthirsty crusaders or whatever.

Maybe he should listen to them and their flocks, instead of just kissing the butts of Muslims forever and ever.

I don't see why he doesn't just convert to Islam at this point. He seems to prefer it to Christianity.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums