Pope backs same sex unions

[Aussie Pete]

Many of us reject the worldly part of the Church but stick with the original teaching of Christ and the apostles. The pope is not infallible in worldly matters...

The issue of homosexuality cannot be dismissed as a worldly issue. It's a Kingdom of God issue as 1 Corinthians 6:9 makes clear. Of course, if the pope is only interested in pleasing the world, he is going about it the right way.

 

[Cis.jd]

Because once you've started the pendulum swinging you can't control it. You can't control where homosexuals will draw the line.

So? If it's out of the church then it's not your problem.

 

[zippy2006]

So? If it's out of the church then it's not your problem.

...said no Catholic ever.

 

[mindlight]

Pope Francis backs same-sex civil unions

Pope Francis has given his most explicit support to same-sex civil unions in a move that is likely to further enrage his conservative opponents in the Catholic church.

His comments came in an interview in a documentary film, Francesco, which premiered at the Rome film festival on Wednesday.

Where do you think this is heading?

God Bless

Endorsing the possibility of civil unions is not the same as endorsing homosexual practice.

All people are made in Gods image and have that dignity, we have also all been given freewill and that freedom needs to be respected. Civil contracts protect rights and properties and represent a contract between 2 people not those people and the church. Why should the church oppose these legal contracts.

Homosexual ordination, Same Sex "Marriage", affirming same sex unions in a church, or a declaration that homosexual PRACTICE is ok are the red lines not civil unions.

 

[hedrick]

I like the pope. I think this pronouncement is a result of his strength: his pastoral concern.

But I also think he wants something that can't happen. He wants to welcome gays while still telling them they are intrinsically disordered. He wants married gays to feel free to bring their children up in the Church. But do you really want your son or daughter to hear regularly that your marriage isn't real and is sinful?

 

[hedrick]

How are they misreading it?

This is difficult, because the rules of this forum prohibit discussing that morality of homosexuality. For specific comment on the relevant texts you need to look elsewhere.

 

[Lost4words]

We need, yet again, for the Pope to clarify what has been reported.

 

[chilehed]

I would like him to come out and directly say, yes homosexuality is a mortal sin

He has repeatedly affirmed that homosexual behavior is gravely sinful.

 

[chilehed]

So advocate for two men to get married as long as it's not in church? Seems like a recipe for confusion.

That's not what he said.

 

[chilehed]

And the pope is supposed to be infallible?

As has been pointed out, what he said has been (once again) badly misrepresented, and in any case it has nothing to do with infallibility. They were expressions of personal opinions, not attempts to exercise definitive acts of magesterial teaching.

I will certainly agree with the contention that Pope Francis is distressingly wont to ambiguity in his public statements.

 

[RDKirk]

The issue of homosexuality cannot be dismissed as a worldly issue. It's a Kingdom of God issue as 1 Corinthians 6:9 makes clear. Of course, if the pope is only interested in pleasing the world, he is going about it the right way.

I think that passage says the opposite of what you think it says. Moreover, it must conform to what Paul had said just a few verses earlier:

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked person from among you. -- 1 Corinthians 5:12, 13

What has Paul been doing through the whole of chapters 5 and 6?

Paul is chastising them for tolerating sins among believers.

Paul identifies those acts in 1 Corinthians 6:9 as sins of believers. That's what he's been talking about through these chapters: The sins the Corinthians believers are committing and tolerating.

It doesn't matter what unbelievers do, it doesn't matter whether unbelievers sin or if they perfectly imitate the behavior of Christians, because without faith, it is impossible to please God. Unbelievers are not condemned by their specific actions, unbelievers are condemned because of their lack of faith.

 

[RDKirk]

As has been pointed out, what he said has been (once again) badly misrepresented, and in any case it has nothing to do with infallibility. They were expressions of personal opinions, not attempts to exercise definitive acts of magesterial teaching.

I will certainly agree with the contention that Pope Francis is distressingly wont to ambiguity in his public statements.

I'm not sure that anything the Pope says about what those outside the Church do falls within the realm of magesterial teaching.

 

[RDKirk]

I like the pope. I think this pronouncement is a result of his strength: his pastoral concern.

But I also think he wants something that can't happen. He wants to welcome gays while still telling them they are intrinsically disordered. He wants married gays to feel free to bring their children up in the Church. But do you really want your son or daughter to hear regularly that your marriage isn't real and is sinful?

My own statement on this matter is, "Homosexual activity is not compatible with the biblical lifestyle of Christianity." If necessary, I'll explain that statement does not touch at all upon what people outside the Church do or how they should be treated in secular society. Like many, many things that are natural in humans, it's not what Christians are supposed to be doing. Christ calls us to reject our natural inclinations in many ways.

Of course, that's not going to be a satisfactory response to the LGBTQ+ community, which does, indeed, require everyone to celebrate their states.

That strikes me as a black person rather ironically and is one of the distinctions between the Civil Rights agenda and the LGBTQ+ agenda. Back when we were marching in the 60s, we never expected or intended white people to "celebrate" blackness (and still don't)...only to render equality in civil rights.

 

[chilehed]

I'm not sure that anything the Pope says about what those outside the Church do falls within the realm of magesterial teaching.

That strikes me as a very odd idea.

Setting aside for the moment the question of which denomination(s) are Christ's Church and which (if any) have the legitimate authority to make definitive pronouncements on doctrine, I think we ought all be able to agree that, if it exists at all, judgements on the morality of acts falls squarely within its competence.

So it seems to me that what you said implies that either moral judgements are not within the competence of the Church, or else its moral judgements apply to no one outside the Church. I find both of those to be untenable.

 

[lismore]

So? If it's out of the church then it's not your problem.

Hello Cis. I don't think you're understanding my point. A 'church' promoting same sex relationships in society and then just hoping to freeze the issue won't work. Once the genie is out of the bottle the end point is persecution for those Christians who refuse to accept SSM. The Pope is either extremely naive or an apostate. It's far better for everyone who claims to be a Christian leader to share what the bible says, rather than making stuff up IMO. God Bless

 

[RDKirk]

That strikes me as a very odd idea.

Setting aside for the moment the question of which denomination(s) are Christ's Church and which (if any) have the legitimate authority to make definitive pronouncements on doctrine, I think we ought all be able to agree that, if it exists at all, judgements on the morality of acts falls squarely within its competence.

So it seems to me that what you said implies that either moral judgements are not within the competence of the Church, or else its moral judgements apply to no one outside the Church. I find both of those to be untenable.

Not at all.

The RCC has long made a distinction between Papal pronouncements that are specifically "magisterial teaching"--and thus necessarily infallible--and those Papal statements that are not "magisterial teaching," and thus not necessarily infallible.

What the Pope has said about civil unions (and about all civil activities) is not Papal magisterial teaching. This falls squarely in line with what both Peter and Paul had to say about Church moral authority over unbelievers: The Church has none.

 

[lismore]

I will certainly agree with the contention that Pope Francis is distressingly wont to ambiguity in his public statements.

That's just as concerning. If someone asks him about homosexuality why doesn't he just give them the relevant bible passages?

 

[RDKirk]

Hello Cis. I don't think you're understanding my point. A 'church' promoting same sex relationships in society and then just hoping to freeze the issue won't work. Once the genie is out of the bottle the end point is persecution for those Christians who refuse to accept SSM. The Pope is either extremely naive or an apostate. It's far better for everyone who claims to be a Christian leader to share what the bible says, rather than making stuff up IMO. God Bless

You're both making presumptions of what the Pope thinks and expects.

If I were also going to make such a presumption about the Pope's thoughts, I'd presume the Pope expects what Jesus predicted: The world is going to hate the Body of Christ just as it hated Christ Himself, regardless how loving to them we present ourselves.

 

[RDKirk]

That's just as concerning. If someone asks him about homosexuality why doesn't he just give them the relevant bible passages?

Unless they're believers, bible passages are irrelevant to them.

 

[pescador]

The issue of homosexuality cannot be dismissed as a worldly issue. It's a Kingdom of God issue as 1 Corinthians 6:9 makes clear. Of course, if the pope is only interested in pleasing the world, he is going about it the right way.

Of course, it helps if you don't lift partial verses out of context...

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (complete), "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God." Out of the ten behaviors listed two involve homosexuals; you conveniently don't mention the other eight.