Poor Christians are deluded by 'grab it' gospel

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Budge

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] Poor Christians are deluded by 'grab it' gospel
More expanision of the Prosperity Gospel in England this time.



Christianity] Poor Christians are deluded by 'grab it' gospel
Item 2756 • Posted: 03/17/2003 • Weblogged by Religion News Blog
http://www.gospelcom.net/apologetic...s/00002756.html

The Times Online (England), Mar. 16, 2003
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

Thousands of Christians in Britain are being deluded by a new style of preaching that promises untold wealth to the believer whose faith is strong enough, according to a report.

Followers of the so-called prosperity gospel — known by its critics as the “blab it and grab it gospel” — are encouraged to believe that it is acceptable to pray for material wealth.

An authoritative report by the Evangelical Alliance, an umbrella organisation for Britain’s evangelical Churches, raises concerns about teachings that if the believer gives a sum of money to the preacher, God will multiply it by a hundred times or more in favour of the giver.

Preachers use mailshots, television and churches to persuade Christians that, by giving them money, believers will not only get out of debt, they will also become rich.

Churches have traditionally repudiated wealth in favour of a modest lifestyle. The prosperity gospel plays on an equivalent belief that traditional religion will ensure fertility, abundance and longevity.

It is proving attractive to wealthy Christians in the West, particularly in America, because it assuages their consciences. Some preachers teach that material blessings, along with physical health, are confirmation from God of a righteous and holy lifestyle.

Some of the poorest churchgoers are said to be deluded into believing that, if they give what spare cash they have to a particular preacher, they will receive the money back “one hundredfold”. But it is then the minister who becomes rich, often flaunting his wealthy lifestyle as proof of how well the prosperity gospel works.



The report says that prosperous, charismatic preachers can replace Christ as the object of adulation and admiration.

The prosperity gospel developed in America after the Second World War, its proponents teaching that health and wealth are not only good and godly but the inalienable right of every believer. Preachers did not merely ignore the examples of St Francis and Mother Teresa, they condemned them, teaching that poverty was the work of Satan.

“Lacking the traditional British embarrassment about money, Americans are more likely to see wealth as something to be invested and exploited,” the report says. “The movement has been an unabashed advocate of material prosperity and this has naturally invited the charge that it promotes a lifestyle and ethos fundamentally at odds with the values of the kingdom of God. Analyses of the movement abound with anecdotes about luxury cars and Rolex watches.

The emphasis on debt reduction in prosperity teaching is clearly a response to a serious and widespread social problem.”

The prosperity gospel has proved paticularly fertile for leaders among black-led churches, among the fastest-growing churches in the world. One recent survey showed that more than half of all churchgoers in London are black or Asian.

The prosperity gospel became a cause of concern among the evangelical movement in the 1990s because of the activities of Morris Cerullo World Evangelism, which had offices in this country and was affiliated to the Evangelical Alliance.

Members of the Evangelical Alliance council were alarmed by his fundraising methods, particularly when he allegedly linked the level of donors’ contributions to his own ministry with the extent of God’s blessing on the donors’ lives. The concern was about “the suggestion of so automatic an equation between material offering and divine favour”.

Under pressure from the council, Mr Cerullo resigned from the Alliance in 1996. The report was commissioned by the Alliance partly as a response to this, but also out of concern that the huge expansion of the prosperity message in America was about to be paralleled in Britain.

Already, rapidly expanding black Pentecostal Churches in Britain are being strongly influenced by preachers from Nigeria, where believers have proved particularly susceptible to prosperity teaching. In addition, preachers often use Christian channels on cable and satellite television to raise money for themselves by preaching that what the believer donates to him and his wife, God will magnify a hundredfold. The prosperity gospel shares the conviction held by many pentecostals and fundamentalists that the world is in the final days before the Second Coming and the “rapture”, when the faithful are lifted directly to heaven.

The report notes similarities with pagan superstition that “what you say is what you get”.Preachers teach that believers must convince themselves that God has already made them a millionaire, preferably by giving money to the preacher himself. If the person fails then to become rich, it is because their faith was not strong enough.

(Dave Hunt talks about these evils in Occult Invasion)

The study Faith, Health and Prosperity was carried out by the Evangelical Alliance Commission on Unity and Truth among Evangelicals. Andrew Perriman, the editor, left Jamaica at the age of eight with his mother and two of his sisters to live in Kentish Town, North London, and went on to become a pastor within the New Testament Church of God, one of Britain’s fast-growing black Pentecostal Churches. He said that the prosperity gospel was reaching people as much through satellite and cable television and other direct means as through the churches.


Bible loopholes

The founding Bible text for the prosperity gospel is Mark xi, 23, where Jesus says: “Truly I tell you, if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and if you do not doubt in your heart, but believe that what you say will come to pass, it will be done for you.”

St Paul’s statement in 2 Corinthians xiii, 9 is taken literally: “Though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that by his poverty you might become rich.”

Texts such as Proverbs vi, 2, “You are snared by the utterance of your lips”, are used to teach that ill-health and poverty are the believer’s own fault and that a Christian who prays for wealth and gives all their spare cash to the minister and who then remains poor has been ensared by Satan.

Where gospel texts appear to contradict the message of the prosperity gospel, such as in Mark x, where Jesus told a rich young man to sell all his possessions and give to the poor, a grammatical loophole in the text is used to argue that Jesus did not in fact tell him to give all the proceeds of the sale to the poor, but was simply telling him to turn his solid assets into liquid assets and give some away.

The Prosperity Gospel is a sham. I have noticed it seems big on this particular forum board. It is based on the Occult too, where humans use magic to get what they want. This time they use the Lord like a magic genie to fufill all their desires for health, and desires for material wealth.

One book to read is Occult Invasion by Dave Hunt to counteract this stuff in your mind.
 

All4Christ

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St Paul’s statement in 2 Corinthians xiii, 9 is taken literally: “Though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that by his poverty you might become rich.”

he was rich--of course he was rich ::shrug:: Jesus is God! God is rich in every aspect of the word--not just money!

He became poor--he became man, not a rich ruler, and not a zealot political leader, he became the humble poor human man for the following reason

By his poverty you become rich
Not necessarily in money, not necessarily in this world! You become rich in life with God, you become rich with ETERNAL LIFE! you become rich with the love of God--more precious than any amount of money.

Didn't Jesus tell the rich man that if he was to follow him he had to give his belongings/riches to the poor?

Didn't Jesus say it would be so much harder for the rich to go to heaven? That it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven??

Don't pick and choose passages....look at every passage in the Bible. Look at the context around the passages and pray about how to interpret the passages. (Maybe you're doing that, I'm not sure) ::shrug:: anyways, I don't have time to do this for each verse right now....but maybe this can shed some light on the one verse.
 
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All4Christ

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oh dear...forgive me.....i just finished reading it and i saw that you were using this against that theory....sorry for assuming otherwise. I saw that verse being used and I just reacted to it, something I have trouble with at times :(
 
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Have a read of James 1.

The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position. But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business.

and in the same chapter:

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
 
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Andrew

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Forum Rule:

Not allowed: "Word of Faith preachers are false prophets"
-------------------------

WOF is Word of Faith. Thats where people think they can work up the faith to intimidate God into giving them luxury and the pampered life.

That's what people who dont understnd WOF and who are against WOF say.

Word of Faith simply means mixing God's Word with Faith.
It is a move of the Spirit that has blessed many Christians including me, set many free of sickness and poverty.

Granted there are excesses and abuses, but the essence of the move is of the Spirit.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Yesterday at 09:49 AM Br. Max said this in Post #8

WOF is Word of Faith. Thats where people think they can work up the faith to intimidate God into giving them luxury and the pampered life.

This is an untrue statement Br. Max
 
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Yesterday at 09:49 AM Br. Max said this in Post #8

WOF is Word of Faith. Thats where people think they can work up the faith to intimidate God into giving them luxury and the pampered life.

Quaffer: not true? Funny but that's what Creflo Dollar and the rest preach.

"God wants us to be rich and pampered so you better get the faith worked up to get what God wants."



You have missunderstood what is being taught Br Max.

God cannot be intimidated.  We are merely claiming what God has told us is ours.  It has nothing to do with fancy cars and furs, ect.  It has everything to do with furthering the Kingdom of God.

It's much like when your dad buys you a new bike to do your paper route.  He tells you he's bought it for you so you tell your friends your dad has bought you a new bike...even though at the moment you may not see that bike. 

Then when you get the bike you start using it for your route.  However, you can also use that bike to go bike riding with your friends.  You can give other people rides on it. 

God gives us things to further the Kingdom, but that does not mean that we cannot enjoy them too.

All of our churches need money in order to run.  Money for the lights.  Money for the air conditioning. Money for the cushioned seats. 

We need money to buy food to give to the poor.  We need money to buy clothes to feed the poor.  We need money to put gas in our cars to travel to wherever we need to go.

Money is needed to send Missionaries overseas.  Money is needed to help my neighbor pay their light, food, rent, ect. bills.

Money is needed.  Period!  I'm of no help to the Kingdom by being unable to pay my bills.  In fact, I'm a discredit to it by not being able to pay my bills. 

So. . .while I am learning to handle money in the righteous way, I have the hope that some day I will have learned it then I will have it and I will then be even more of an advancement to the Kingdom of God.



 
 
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dignitized

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How can you as a follower of Christ claim that God wants you to have TEMPORAL treasures???

We are to sell all that we have, give it to the poor, take up our cross and follow him. There is no room in that deceleration for amassing wealth. Any Doctrine that teaches we NEED MONEY is false. ALL the cattle on all the hills are His. He does not NEED us to have money. What he needs us to do is have our hearts set on heaven and heavenly things.

One need only look at the Israelites as they wondered in the desert for 40 years. Their clothing and sandals never wore out. Look at the feeding of the 5,000 - we do NOT need money.

BTW - no church NEEDS air-conditioning - nor cushioned seats. Its this kind of comfort thinking that is part of the problem. Stop looking for comfort and look to find how you can sacrifice and suffer for the kingdom of God. :)
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Today at 12:49 AM Br. Max said this in Post #13

How can you as a follower of Christ claim that God wants you to have TEMPORAL treasures???

We are to sell all that we have, give it to the poor, take up our cross and follow him. There is no room in that deceleration for amassing wealth. Any Doctrine that teaches we NEED MONEY is false. ALL the cattle on all the hills are His. He does not NEED us to have money. What he needs us to do is have our hearts set on heaven and heavenly things.

One need only look at the Israelites as they wondered in the desert for 40 years. Their clothing and sandals never wore out. Look at the feeding of the 5,000 - we do NOT need money.

BTW - no church NEEDS air-conditioning - nor cushioned seats. Its this kind of comfort thinking that is part of the problem. Stop looking for comfort and look to find how you can sacrifice and suffer for the kingdom of God. :)


Br Max,

Again, you seem to have totally missed the point I was making.  There was nothing in my post that even hinted at amassing wealth.

I would agree with you that some things we/churches have are not  necessarily a need but does the church you go to have these things?  Or are you living off of someone else. Peoples donations maybe?  How are they able to give donations if they are not supposed to have money. 

Since you've given everything you own away, who is it that is paying your bills for you?  Who is feeding you. How do they get their money to buy the food?  If you don't have electricity, who is paying for the candles? 

How do you operate on the computer you're using?  Who paid for it?  Who pays for the internet service?

Also, since you have given everything you own to the poor already, does that not make you the poor now?  And now you need people to give everything they have to you? 

And since you're not supposed to have anything, when someone gives you something do you turn around and give it to someone else?  My goodness, at what point does someone use what is given to them?   Or is the stuff just in perpetual motion, never stopping and being used by anyone. 

Get real Br Max.  The reason God blesses us is so we can bless others.  He promises to meet our needs, and any abundance He supplies, we are to give to others. 

John Michael Talbot, if you've ever heard of him, is a talented and anointed Franciscan musician.  He makes "money" by selling his music.  I know because I bought some when I attended a concert of his.  He may give it all away, but he has to have it in order to give it.

Please, share with all of us your wonderful testimony's of how God has met your needs and helped you meet the needs of others without you having to work to get the money to buy them.    It is wonderful that you are at the place as to not need money to live in this world.   



 
 
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sbbqb7n16

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17th March 2003 at 09:31 AM All4Christ said this in Post #3

oh dear...forgive me.....i just finished reading it and i saw that you were using this against that theory....sorry for assuming otherwise. I saw that verse being used and I just reacted to it, something I have trouble with at times :(

Prov 18:13 He who gives an answer before he hears,
It is folly and shame to him.

Don't take that angrily please :) Use it to remind yourself whenever you try doing that again. I thought you might find it useful :D Have a great day!
 
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Yesterday at 11:49 PM Br. Max said this in Post #13How can you as a follower of Christ claim that God wants you to have TEMPORAL treasures???

We are to sell all that we have, give it to the poor, take up our cross and follow him. There is no room in that deceleration for amassing wealth. Any Doctrine that teaches we NEED MONEY is false. ALL the cattle on all the hills are His. He does not NEED us to have money. What he needs us to do is have our hearts set on heaven and heavenly things.

One need only look at the Israelites as they wondered in the desert for 40 years. Their clothing and sandals never wore out. Look at the feeding of the 5,000 - we do NOT need money.

BTW - no church NEEDS air-conditioning - nor cushioned seats. Its this kind of comfort thinking that is part of the problem. Stop looking for comfort and look to find how you can sacrifice and suffer for the kingdom of God. :)


Sir may I ask you some questions? (I see Quaffer has asked some of these as well ... we think alike sometimes Quaff :D)

1) Why have you not sold your compter and given the money to the poor yet? You don't NEED it, do you?

2) If we continue to sell all that God gives, how do we have the money for food? Why don't we continue to give away all the food we recieve so that someone else may eat? Won't we then become the ones without food?

3) Does a church even NEED a building? If you didn't know anything about Jesus would you sit in such a building to learn about Him? Then can we not say that air conditioning is a tool for attracting people to the gospel message?

4) Jesus got Peter to get some money from a fish to pay the temple tax. Didn't He need money to do that? How can you render something to Ceaser if you don't have it?

5) Why is there the verse "seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and all these things shall be added unto you" if we aren't supposed to recieve the things to be added unto us?

6) Why did Jesus have a treasurer?  If He wasn't supposed to have money I mean...

7)Why didn't the Isrealites sell their clothes and/or give them to those who didn't have any? Wouldn't that leave them without clothes themselves?

I think the only problem with WOF would be when people seek the gifts of God more than God Himself. Read the verses where Jesus says "ask in my name and whatever you ask shall be given unto you" and try and explain where "whatever" ends. Doesn't your same Bible also say "without faith it is impossible to please God?" It's not an intimidation thing, it's a pleasing thing.

Well that's my thoughts on the situation :) Hope it makes sense to you all :) Have a great day!

 
 
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Andrew

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Proverbs talks a lot about long life and prosperity if we seek after wisdom and knowledge. There is nothing wrong with being rich, provided you dont obtain it illegally, and dont use it just for yourself and you dont trust in riches.

Anybody who has read the Bible will know that God wants us to prosper for good reasons like those stated by Quaffer.

Proverbs 3:
1 My son, do not forget my teaching,
but keep my commands in your heart,
2 for they will prolong your life many years
and bring you prosperity.


Proverbs 3:16
Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor.

Proverbs 8:18
With me are riches and honor, enduring wealth and prosperity.

Proverbs 10:15
The wealth of the rich is their fortified city, but poverty is the ruin of the poor.

Proverbs 11:10
When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices; when the wicked perish, there are shouts of joy.

Proverbs 11:25
A generous man will prosper; he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed.

Proverbs 13:21
Misfortune pursues the sinner, but prosperity is the reward of the righteous.

Proverbs 16:20
Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers, and blessed is he who trusts in the LORD .

Proverbs 19:8
He who gets wisdom loves his own soul; he who cherishes understanding prospers.

Proverbs 24:4
through knowledge its rooms are filled with rare and beautiful treasures.
 
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Yesterday at 04:50 PM sbbqb7n16 said this in Post #16




Sir may I ask you some questions? (I see Quaffer has asked some of these as well ... we think alike sometimes Quaff :D)

1) Why have you not sold your compter and given the money to the poor yet? You don't NEED it, do you?

2) If we continue to sell all that God gives, how do we have the money for food? Why don't we continue to give away all the food we recieve so that someone else may eat? Won't we then become the ones without food?

3) Does a church even NEED a building? If you didn't know anything about Jesus would you sit in such a building to learn about Him? Then can we not say that air conditioning is a tool for attracting people to the gospel message?

4) Jesus got Peter to get some money from a fish to pay the temple tax. Didn't He need money to do that? How can you render something to Ceaser if you don't have it?

5) Why is there the verse "seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and all these things shall be added unto you" if we aren't supposed to recieve the things to be added unto us?

6) Why did Jesus have a treasurer?  If He wasn't supposed to have money I mean...

7)Why didn't the Isrealites sell their clothes and/or give them to those who didn't have any? Wouldn't that leave them without clothes themselves?

I think the only problem with WOF would be when people seek the gifts of God more than God Himself. Read the verses where Jesus says "ask in my name and whatever you ask shall be given unto you" and try and explain where "whatever" ends. Doesn't your same Bible also say "without faith it is impossible to please God?" It's not an intimidation thing, it's a pleasing thing.

Well that's my thoughts on the situation :) Hope it makes sense to you all :) Have a great day!

 


Yes, Paul, everything you've pointed out does make one wonder. 

And the part about you and I thinking alike. . . :D. . .well. . .what can I say.  You make me proud.  (Not in a bad way of course:))
 
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SavedByGrace3

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20th March 2003 at 09:49 AM Br. Max said this in Post #8

WOF is Word of Faith. Thats where people think they can work up the faith to intimidate God into giving them luxury and the pampered life.


It is a sin to bear false witness against your brother. Please produce evidence of some WOF person saying believers should "intimidate God into giving you a pampered life of luxury"?

If you cannot do this, then please repent immediately.
:
 
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Yesterday at 12:49 AM Br. Max said this in Post #13

How can you as a follower of Christ claim that God wants you to have TEMPORAL treasures???

We are to sell all that we have, give it to the poor, take up our cross and follow him. ...

If you take this literally, and you must because you are using it to attack any sort of faith for prosperity, they why have you not followed your own teaching? Why are you sitting at a very expensive computer typing these words? Why have you not sold it and given the money to the poor? In short... why are you not practicing what you preach???
 
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