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Poor Christians are deluded by 'grab it' gospel

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Budge, Mar 17, 2003.

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  1. Budge

    Budge Member

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    ] Poor Christians are deluded by 'grab it' gospel
    More expanision of the Prosperity Gospel in England this time.



     
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  2. All4Christ

    All4Christ ✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙ CF Senior Ambassador Supporter

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    St Paul’s statement in 2 Corinthians xiii, 9 is taken literally: “Though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that by his poverty you might become rich.”

    he was rich--of course he was rich ::shrug:: Jesus is God! God is rich in every aspect of the word--not just money!

    He became poor--he became man, not a rich ruler, and not a zealot political leader, he became the humble poor human man for the following reason

    By his poverty you become rich
    Not necessarily in money, not necessarily in this world! You become rich in life with God, you become rich with ETERNAL LIFE! you become rich with the love of God--more precious than any amount of money.

    Didn't Jesus tell the rich man that if he was to follow him he had to give his belongings/riches to the poor?

    Didn't Jesus say it would be so much harder for the rich to go to heaven? That it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven??

    Don't pick and choose passages....look at every passage in the Bible. Look at the context around the passages and pray about how to interpret the passages. (Maybe you're doing that, I'm not sure) ::shrug:: anyways, I don't have time to do this for each verse right now....but maybe this can shed some light on the one verse.
     
  3. All4Christ

    All4Christ ✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙ CF Senior Ambassador Supporter

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    oh dear...forgive me.....i just finished reading it and i saw that you were using this against that theory....sorry for assuming otherwise. I saw that verse being used and I just reacted to it, something I have trouble with at times :(
     
  4. aus_koala

    aus_koala New Member

    70
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    Have a read of James 1.

    The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position. But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business.

    and in the same chapter:

    Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
     
  5. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    oh no here they go again, attacking WOF... :(
     
  6. OldBadfish

    OldBadfish Well-Known Member

    +20
    I don't like that at all. That is false teaching, big time.
     
  7. All4Christ

    All4Christ ✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙ CF Senior Ambassador Supporter

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    sorry...what does WOF mean?
     
  8. dignitized

    dignitized Well-Known Member

    +724
    WOF is Word of Faith. Thats where people think they can work up the faith to intimidate God into giving them luxury and the pampered life.
     
  9. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Forum Rule:

    -------------------------

    That's what people who dont understnd WOF and who are against WOF say.

    Word of Faith simply means mixing God's Word with Faith.
    It is a move of the Spirit that has blessed many Christians including me, set many free of sickness and poverty.

    Granted there are excesses and abuses, but the essence of the move is of the Spirit.
     
  10. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    This is an untrue statement Br. Max
     
  11. dignitized

    dignitized Well-Known Member

    +724
    Quaffer: not true? Funny but that's what Creflo Dollar and the rest preach.

    "God wants us to be rich and pampered so you better get the faith worked up to get what God wants."

    :rolleyes:
     
  12. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    You have missunderstood what is being taught Br Max.

    God cannot be intimidated.  We are merely claiming what God has told us is ours.  It has nothing to do with fancy cars and furs, ect.  It has everything to do with furthering the Kingdom of God.

    It's much like when your dad buys you a new bike to do your paper route.  He tells you he's bought it for you so you tell your friends your dad has bought you a new bike...even though at the moment you may not see that bike. 

    Then when you get the bike you start using it for your route.  However, you can also use that bike to go bike riding with your friends.  You can give other people rides on it. 

    God gives us things to further the Kingdom, but that does not mean that we cannot enjoy them too.

    All of our churches need money in order to run.  Money for the lights.  Money for the air conditioning. Money for the cushioned seats. 

    We need money to buy food to give to the poor.  We need money to buy clothes to feed the poor.  We need money to put gas in our cars to travel to wherever we need to go.

    Money is needed to send Missionaries overseas.  Money is needed to help my neighbor pay their light, food, rent, ect. bills.

    Money is needed.  Period!  I'm of no help to the Kingdom by being unable to pay my bills.  In fact, I'm a discredit to it by not being able to pay my bills. 

    So. . .while I am learning to handle money in the righteous way, I have the hope that some day I will have learned it then I will have it and I will then be even more of an advancement to the Kingdom of God.



     
     
  13. dignitized

    dignitized Well-Known Member

    +724
    How can you as a follower of Christ claim that God wants you to have TEMPORAL treasures???

    We are to sell all that we have, give it to the poor, take up our cross and follow him. There is no room in that deceleration for amassing wealth. Any Doctrine that teaches we NEED MONEY is false. ALL the cattle on all the hills are His. He does not NEED us to have money. What he needs us to do is have our hearts set on heaven and heavenly things.

    One need only look at the Israelites as they wondered in the desert for 40 years. Their clothing and sandals never wore out. Look at the feeding of the 5,000 - we do NOT need money.

    BTW - no church NEEDS air-conditioning - nor cushioned seats. Its this kind of comfort thinking that is part of the problem. Stop looking for comfort and look to find how you can sacrifice and suffer for the kingdom of God. :)
     
  14. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Br Max,

    Again, you seem to have totally missed the point I was making.  There was nothing in my post that even hinted at amassing wealth.

    I would agree with you that some things we/churches have are not  necessarily a need but does the church you go to have these things?  Or are you living off of someone else. Peoples donations maybe?  How are they able to give donations if they are not supposed to have money. 

    Since you've given everything you own away, who is it that is paying your bills for you?  Who is feeding you. How do they get their money to buy the food?  If you don't have electricity, who is paying for the candles? 

    How do you operate on the computer you're using?  Who paid for it?  Who pays for the internet service?

    Also, since you have given everything you own to the poor already, does that not make you the poor now?  And now you need people to give everything they have to you? 

    And since you're not supposed to have anything, when someone gives you something do you turn around and give it to someone else?  My goodness, at what point does someone use what is given to them?   Or is the stuff just in perpetual motion, never stopping and being used by anyone. 

    Get real Br Max.  The reason God blesses us is so we can bless others.  He promises to meet our needs, and any abundance He supplies, we are to give to others. 

    John Michael Talbot, if you've ever heard of him, is a talented and anointed Franciscan musician.  He makes "money" by selling his music.  I know because I bought some when I attended a concert of his.  He may give it all away, but he has to have it in order to give it.

    Please, share with all of us your wonderful testimony's of how God has met your needs and helped you meet the needs of others without you having to work to get the money to buy them.    It is wonderful that you are at the place as to not need money to live in this world.   



     
     
  15. sbbqb7n16

    sbbqb7n16 Veteran - Blue Bible Dude

    +155
    Christian
    Single
    Prov 18:13 He who gives an answer before he hears,
    It is folly and shame to him.

    Don't take that angrily please :) Use it to remind yourself whenever you try doing that again. I thought you might find it useful :D Have a great day!
     
  16. sbbqb7n16

    sbbqb7n16 Veteran - Blue Bible Dude

    +155
    Christian
    Single

    Sir may I ask you some questions? (I see Quaffer has asked some of these as well ... we think alike sometimes Quaff :D)

    1) Why have you not sold your compter and given the money to the poor yet? You don't NEED it, do you?

    2) If we continue to sell all that God gives, how do we have the money for food? Why don't we continue to give away all the food we recieve so that someone else may eat? Won't we then become the ones without food?

    3) Does a church even NEED a building? If you didn't know anything about Jesus would you sit in such a building to learn about Him? Then can we not say that air conditioning is a tool for attracting people to the gospel message?

    4) Jesus got Peter to get some money from a fish to pay the temple tax. Didn't He need money to do that? How can you render something to Ceaser if you don't have it?

    5) Why is there the verse "seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and all these things shall be added unto you" if we aren't supposed to recieve the things to be added unto us?

    6) Why did Jesus have a treasurer?  If He wasn't supposed to have money I mean...

    7)Why didn't the Isrealites sell their clothes and/or give them to those who didn't have any? Wouldn't that leave them without clothes themselves?

    I think the only problem with WOF would be when people seek the gifts of God more than God Himself. Read the verses where Jesus says "ask in my name and whatever you ask shall be given unto you" and try and explain where "whatever" ends. Doesn't your same Bible also say "without faith it is impossible to please God?" It's not an intimidation thing, it's a pleasing thing.

    Well that's my thoughts on the situation :) Hope it makes sense to you all :) Have a great day!

     
     
  17. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Proverbs talks a lot about long life and prosperity if we seek after wisdom and knowledge. There is nothing wrong with being rich, provided you dont obtain it illegally, and dont use it just for yourself and you dont trust in riches.

    Anybody who has read the Bible will know that God wants us to prosper for good reasons like those stated by Quaffer.

    Proverbs 3:
    1 My son, do not forget my teaching,
    but keep my commands in your heart,
    2 for they will prolong your life many years
    and bring you prosperity.


    Proverbs 3:16
    Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor.

    Proverbs 8:18
    With me are riches and honor, enduring wealth and prosperity.

    Proverbs 10:15
    The wealth of the rich is their fortified city, but poverty is the ruin of the poor.

    Proverbs 11:10
    When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices; when the wicked perish, there are shouts of joy.

    Proverbs 11:25
    A generous man will prosper; he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed.

    Proverbs 13:21
    Misfortune pursues the sinner, but prosperity is the reward of the righteous.

    Proverbs 16:20
    Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers, and blessed is he who trusts in the LORD .

    Proverbs 19:8
    He who gets wisdom loves his own soul; he who cherishes understanding prospers.

    Proverbs 24:4
    through knowledge its rooms are filled with rare and beautiful treasures.
     
  18. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Yes, Paul, everything you've pointed out does make one wonder. 

    And the part about you and I thinking alike. . . :D. . .well. . .what can I say.  You make me proud.  (Not in a bad way of course:))
     
  19. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    It is a sin to bear false witness against your brother. Please produce evidence of some WOF person saying believers should "intimidate God into giving you a pampered life of luxury"?

    If you cannot do this, then please repent immediately.
    :
     
  20. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    If you take this literally, and you must because you are using it to attack any sort of faith for prosperity, they why have you not followed your own teaching? Why are you sitting at a very expensive computer typing these words? Why have you not sold it and given the money to the poor? In short... why are you not practicing what you preach???
     
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