Polygamy...Was Never God's Plan

[bèlla]

Your very open and honest is appreciated although I would like to emphasise the Biblical model for polygamy is not really about sharing your life or space with another woman. It's only about sharing your husband with (an)other woman/women.

Biblical model aside, I've known many who live that way. Reality is hard to dispute. I don't have to guess. I've seen beyond the arguments and interacted with everyone involved. Not once or twice. I did it for years. I know more about poly than I admit.

If someone wants to live that way they're welcome to do so. But I would never debase myself or compromise my worth in that manner. Rest assured, more than a few tried to convince me. I'm a pearl. I operate from that sphere and engage with men seeking the same.

~bella

 

[Hans Blaster]

For that I would recommend watching some personal testimonies from people in the 20-21st century who experienced God's intervention in their lives directly; if you're interested I can collect a few URLs for that? Just say the word

No thanks. Personal testimony has no value. No one should believe or not believe based on the experiences of someone else. I've never experienced "the divine", that's no reason for you to not believe.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Biblical model aside, I've known many who live that way. Reality is hard to dispute. I don't have to guess. I've seen beyond the arguments and interacted with everyone involved. Not once or twice. I did it for years. I know more about poly than I admit.

If someone wants to live that way they're welcome to do so. But I would never debase myself or compromise my worth in that manner. Rest assured, more than a few tried to convince me. I'm a pearl. I operate from that sphere and engage with men seeking the same.

~bella

Your comments are quite valuable; indeed keep the pearl bit , and indeed never debase yourself or let your sense of worth be compromised. That would be terrible. Polygamy only would be preferred if the total sum of happiness of everyone involved is more than the sum of that when women remained single.

May I ask specifically what you think went wrong or caused the suffering in the cases you've witnessed?

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

No thanks. Personal testimony has no value. No one should believe or not believe based on the experiences of someone else. I've never experienced "the divine", that's no reason for you to not believe.

Mm, isn't that a bit unnecessarily strict? People are sentenced to death based on personal testimonies .. If someone you trusted would share with you, their testimony would have no value to you?

 

[bèlla]

Your comments are quite valuable; indeed keep the pearl bit , and indeed never debase yourself or let your sense of worth be compromised. That would be terrible. Polygamy only would be preferred if the total sum of happiness of everyone involved is more than the sum of that when women remained single.

Thank you.

I know someone who lives that way. He has the girls. Everything he 'wanted'. But I'm the prize. We've been acquainted for years. He will never have a woman like me in that scenario. We bring too much to the table.

May I ask specifically what you think went wrong or caused the suffering in the cases you've witnessed?

In most instances it's his idea. The women don't want it. Their feelings and loyalty compel them to agree. But the reality is hard. Women aren't wired that way naturally. It wounds them.

~bella

 

[RDKirk]

It's certainly true that God required possible polygamy in cases of the Levirate marriage (Deuteronomy 25:5-10); as the marriage status of the man was not relevant to the instruction.

However IMHO we can't really state ALL other circumstances of polygamy in scriptures resulted in lifelong unhappiness/disaster for men (or women); a single proof of that is found in King Joash, one of those rare good kings in the OT:

2 Chronicles 24:1-3

Joash was seven years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Zibiah of Beersheba. And Joash did what was right in the eyes of the Lord all the days of Jehoiada the priest. Jehoiada got for him two wives, and he had sons and daughters.
​

I recommend reading the whole story on King Joash; it's fascinating. What makes it very interesting is that it is the remarkably righteous priest Jehoiada, who is responsible for turning around the country's mess, himself selects the two wives for this good king; and hence the blessing: he had sons and daughters. Jehoiada is the good guy here; the instrument of blessing - and precisely he's the one to pick King Joash's two wives. Let that sink in for a moment ...

Of course I'm not denying the situations of jealousy that arose in the lives of e.g. Abraham and Jacob, but that doesn't mean the whole concept of polygamy is sinful/bad.

How many monogamous marriages (even among Christians) fail these days? Does that mean that monogamy is sinful or bad?

Personally I have heard about e.g. Christian African women begging to become 2nd wives, simply because it would make life for them so much easier (similar to the the Levirate situation).

Joash did not end well.

The bottom line is that Jesus said one man, one woman.

As for those poor women in such a circumstance that 2nd marriage seems better than nothing, remember that even in the OT, God demanded that husbands remain faithful to their first wives.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Mm, isn't that a bit unnecessarily strict? People are sentenced to death based on personal testimonies .. If someone you trusted would share with you, their testimony would have no value to you?

We're talking about experiences, not occurrences -- how it makes you feel.

If you say "I felt the holy spirit". I say that's great for you, but I don't care. If likewise I say I haven't that shouldn't sway you.

(Plus, eyewitness testimony is known to be the weakest form of testimony in criminal trials. I hope no one is executed on eyewitness testimony alone.)

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

...
I know someone who lives that way. He has the girls. Everything he 'wanted'. But I'm the prize. We've been acquainted for years. He will never have a woman like me in that scenario. We bring too much to the table.

If the well-being of you and possibly your children would be greater remaining single than being an additional wife to him, then yes, please stay single It needs to be a win-win scenario in order to work long term.

In most instances it's his idea. The women don't want it. Their feelings and loyalty compel them to agree. But the reality is hard. Women aren't wired that way naturally. It wounds them.

Most women would prefer to be the only wife of any man I think; hence the ideal of Adam and Eve; yet there are some situations were preferences may vary. Sometimes the additional wife even is nominated by a first wife. Yet the feeling of a first wife preferring to be the only wife to the expense and suffering of other women who are forced to remain single and/or childless does not have to be the only factor of consideration. Apparently God thought about it that way given Deuteronomy 25:5-10. But it completely depends on the individual situation.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Joash did not end well.

The bottom line is that Jesus said one man, one woman.

As for those poor women in such a circumstance that 2nd marriage seems better than nothing, remember that even in the OT, God demanded that husbands remain faithful to their first wives.

The mistakes Joash made after the passing of his righteous priest Jehoiada have no bearing on the gist of the story that it was this righteous priest that took the initiative to give him two wives, and that that fact was seen as a blessing by the writer of Chronicles. The same for the story of David with the women of Saul.

Jesus only made comments on marriage in the context of questions about divorce; at no point did he revoke Mosaic Law(s), so even for Jesus the Levirate Law still would stand; and hence the necessity of polygamy in the case of an already married man who needed to marry his widowed and childless sister-in-law. Jesus didn't introduce new prohibitions; he explained the existing ones.

A marriage is a treaty between two persons with rights and obligations; so God would have demanded any marriage contract to be honoured, not just the first. For not-well-to-do Israelites the easy, least expensive choice was to get rid of their first wife in order to obtain a younger wife; so it is that common scenario God and Jesus condemn. (see the Hillel and Shammai debate Houses of Hillel and Shammai - Wikipedia).

 

[bèlla]

If the well-being of you and possibly your children would be greater remaining single than being an additional wife to him, then yes, please stay single It needs to be a win-win scenario in order to work long term.

There's no scenario in America that requires two spouses. Only weak-willed women pursue it and others with a God complex or desire to worship a man.

~bella

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

There's no scenario in America that requires two spouses. Only weak-willed women pursue it and others with a God complex or desire to worship a man.
~bella

Possibly the desire to have children? Without a spouse that would not be advisable to start with I presume.

 

[bèlla]

Possibly the desire to have children? Without a spouse that would not be advisable to start with I presume.

So you borrow someone else's? How many polygamous couples do you know that established a relationship for those reasons? Other methods exist.

~bella

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Personally none, but several Biblical couples fall into that category; a child benefits from having both a father and mother; without a marriage that is hard to achieve from a Biblical perspective.

 

[bèlla]

Personally none, but several Biblical couples fall into that category; a child benefits from having both a father and mother; without a marriage that is hard to achieve from a Biblical perspective.

We're not in that period. Do you have modern examples you're acquainted with?

Otherwise, you don't know polygamy or what it involves. You haven't lived it or know anyone who has. You don't have facts to go on.

~bella

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

We're not in that period. Do you have modern examples you're acquainted with?

Otherwise, you don't know polygamy or what it involves. You haven't lived it or know anyone who has. You don't have facts to go on.
~bella

From a personal, close-up point of view, you would have way more impressions that I would have had from similar situations (I'm not from the USA). Also in many modern societies the 'single mum with kids' has become a common phenomenon which is not good; albeit there may have been circumstances that forced her into that situation (like being abandoned by the husband, or having an abusive husband). Other than that, going for that scenario is not advisable I would say.

Maybe it's good to restate I am not advocating or campaigning for polygamy in a Western context, I am just making the case we should not call it sin or immoral from a Biblical perspective by definition.

May I ask about your personal situation? It seems to be a fairly charged subject for you. (only if you're willing to share of course)

 

[bèlla]

Maybe it's good to restate I am not advocating or campaigning for polygamy in a Western context, I am just making the case we should not call it sin or immoral from a Biblical perspective by definition.

There's a lot of things that happened in the bible that wouldn't be permissible today. Like stoning. We need to see the information in the right context. That was an acceptable practice at the time. But doing it now will land you in jail.

May I ask about your personal situation? It seems to be a fairly charged subject for you. (only if you're willing to share of course)

Charged in what way? I've never done it. But I've known people of that stripe since I came online and I've been here since the early days. More than 20 years. That's a lot exposure. You hear the same things often enough you see the truth.

And I've mentored many women. Some were approached by polygamous suitors and a few made the leap and regretted it. I want to see people bettered and thriving. Making compromises that threaten your worthiness and peace of mind isn't wise.

~bella

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

There's a lot of things that happened in the bible that wouldn't be permissible today. Like stoning. We need to see the information in the right context. That was an acceptable practice at the time. But doing it now will land you in jail.

Charged in what way? I've never done it. But I've known people of that stripe since I came online and I've been here since the early days. More than 20 years. That's a lot exposure. You hear the same things often enough you see the truth.

And I've mentored many women. Some were approached by polygamous suitors and a few made the leap and regretted it. I want to see people bettered and thriving. Making compromises that threaten your worthiness and peace of mind isn't wise.
~bella

Fair enough; that's an understandable perspective with that track record indeed. Would be nice to have some stats overall in society I guess, but that's difficult to obtain; would be interesting nevertheless to know more about actual success/failure rates among Christians in a Western context.

Yet with the stoning; for us in Western society it would cause troubles with secular authorities; but at the same time I would never call it immoral or sinful, because God himself commanded that at some point. Personally I am very hesitant to declare God instructed morality to change over time without an explicit statement from him. E.g. the Jews in Jesus day couldn't execute the death penalty independently anymore because of the Romans, but that didn't make it in itself immoral for them to do so, or to pick-up the custom again after the Romans left.

 

[bèlla]

Fair enough; that's an understandable perspective with that track record indeed. Would be nice to have some stats overall in society I guess, but that's difficult to obtain; would be interesting nevertheless to know more about actual success/failure rates among Christians in a Western context.

I can't speak to that. I was mentoring well before He drew me home. My girls are settled and thriving. One of them is here. @cara-mia is my prize. She's an incredible woman. I'm proud of her.

I don't enable feebleness, brokenness, or apathy. If they walk with me they'll stand. You can't teach what you don't know and haven't lived.

~bella

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

I can't speak to that. I was mentoring well before He drew me home. My girls are settled and thriving. One of them is here. @cara-mia is my prize. She's an incredible woman. I'm proud of her.

I don't enable feebleness, brokenness, or apathy. If they walk with me they'll stand. You can't teach what you don't know and haven't lived.
~bella

Happy to hear that; I fully agree one can't teach what one doesn't know. Studying the Bible has enabled me to say with some confidence I know how God feels about this topic; and its exactly that feebleness or brokenness God was trying to combat. I wish you well in mentoring women to be valuable and strong women in the eyes of God!

 

[bèlla]

Happy to hear that; I fully agree one can't teach what one doesn't know. Studying the Bible has enabled me to say with some confidence I know how God feels about this topic; and its exactly that feebleness or brokenness God was trying to combat. I wish you well in mentoring women to be valuable and strong women in the eyes of God!

Thank you. I haven't mentored in a couple of years. But our discourse has made me realize it's time. I take a certain type under my wing and I haven't encountered her in Christian circles. But when I do it will be nice to start again.

~bella