Polycarp beliefs

[Lord's Servant]

I've read some of polycarp letters and I've never heard of these beliefs he supposedly believe in

Here is a summary of some of Polycarp’s doctrinal beliefs and practices:

A Binitarian view, that acknowledged the Holy Spirit, was held by the apostolic and post-apostolic true Christian leaders, like Polycarp.
Hierarchical church governance was advocated by Polycarp.
The canon of the New Testament was known by Polycarp as he seemed to refer to all the books it in the famous Polycarp’s Letter to the Philippians.
Christmas was not observed by Polycarp nor any professing Christ prior to the third century, or ever by those holding to early teachings.
Deification of Christians after the resurrection was taught by the early leaders of the Church, including Polycarp.
Easter per se was not observed by the apostolic church, and Polycarp fought against it.
The Fall Holy Days were observed by true early Christians, including Polycarp.
The Father was considered to be God by all early professing Christians, including Polycarp.
Polycarp taught against idols (and that would include icons).
Polycarp taught against the immortality of the soul.
Jesus was considered to be God by the true Christians, including Polycarp.
The Kingdom of God was taught by Polycarp.
Leavened Bread was removed from the homes of early Christians like Polycarp.
Lent was not observed by Polycarp.
Limbo was not taught by Polycarp.
Military Service was not allowed for true early Christians like Polycarp.
Millenarianism (a literal thousand year reign of Christ on Earth, often called the millennium) was taught by the early Christians who succeeded Polycarp.
Passover was kept on the 14th of Nisan Polycarp.
Purgatory was not taught by Polycarp.
The Resurrection of the dead was taught Polycarp.
The Sabbath was observed on Saturday by Polycarp.
The Ten Commandments were observed by the apostolic and true post-apostolic Christians, including Polycarp

 

[~Anastasia~]

Following .... I'd have to see the references and compare. I'm not a Patristics expert.

But I do know some of those things yes, were taught and believed by the early Church.

Some I know of other sources, at least, who would disagree.

Some have great potential for misunderstanding the issue (deification, Easter, icons).

And a few I couldn't comment on.

I have a busy few days, but I'm interested in following this.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I've read some of polycarp letters and I've never heard of these beliefs he supposedly believe in

Here is a summary of some of Polycarp’s doctrinal beliefs and practices:

A Binitarian view, that acknowledged the Holy Spirit, was held by the apostolic and post-apostolic true Christian leaders, like Polycarp.
Hierarchical church governance was advocated by Polycarp.
The canon of the New Testament was known by Polycarp as he seemed to refer to all the books it in the famous Polycarp’s Letter to the Philippians.
Christmas was not observed by Polycarp nor any professing Christ prior to the third century, or ever by those holding to early teachings.
Deification of Christians after the resurrection was taught by the early leaders of the Church, including Polycarp.
Easter per se was not observed by the apostolic church, and Polycarp fought against it.
The Fall Holy Days were observed by true early Christians, including Polycarp.
The Father was considered to be God by all early professing Christians, including Polycarp.
Polycarp taught against idols (and that would include icons).
Polycarp taught against the immortality of the soul.
Jesus was considered to be God by the true Christians, including Polycarp.
The Kingdom of God was taught by Polycarp.
Leavened Bread was removed from the homes of early Christians like Polycarp.
Lent was not observed by Polycarp.
Limbo was not taught by Polycarp.
Military Service was not allowed for true early Christians like Polycarp.
Millenarianism (a literal thousand year reign of Christ on Earth, often called the millennium) was taught by the early Christians who succeeded Polycarp.
Passover was kept on the 14th of Nisan Polycarp.
Purgatory was not taught by Polycarp.
The Resurrection of the dead was taught Polycarp.
The Sabbath was observed on Saturday by Polycarp.
The Ten Commandments were observed by the apostolic and true post-apostolic Christians, including Polycarp

Well...I guess it's time for me to finally read up on Polycarp. Although, the thing about Christmas I already knew. Christmas was a Catholic innovation, hence: "Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival" (quote from history.com)

The rest of the stuff I'll have to check out when I get time. Sounds interesting.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Lord's Servant]

Well...I guess it's time for me to finally read up on Polycarp. Although, the thing about Christmas I already knew. Christmas was a Catholic innovation, hence: "Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival" (quote from history.com)

The rest of the stuff I'll have to check out when I get time. Sounds interesting.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Well Christmas didn't come from saturnalia but that's a different story and to me some of it sounds like heresy

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well Christmas didn't come from saturnalia but that's a different story and to me some of it sounds like heresy

Right. Christmas didn't come out of the pagan Saturnalia tradition. But, the Catholic Church of old (with Pope Julius I) worked to absorb and displace the competing vestiges of paganism that were still around in the 4th and 5th centuries. Hence, we got Christmas instead as an ongoing, Christian tradition filling the same date, December 25th in the West, and January 7 in the Eastern Orthodox churches.

Polycarp, who came way before all this, wouldn't have even known about what Pope Julius I and later Catholic brethren decided to do. So, Polycarp's view is to be expected.

 

[Lord's Servant]

Right. Christmas didn't come out of the pagan Saturnalia tradition. But, the Catholic Church of old (with Pope Julius I) worked to absorb and displace the competing vestiges of paganism that were still around in the 4th and 5th centuries. Hence, we got Christmas instead as an ongoing, Christian tradition filling the same date, December 25th in the West, and January 7 in the Eastern Orthodox churches.

Polycarp, who came way before all this, wouldn't have even known about what Pope Julius I and later Catholic brethren decided to do. So, Polycarp's view is to be expected.

Um no. Christmas came North Africa Clement of Alexandria calculated Jesus birth and he came up with January 6th and hippoytus of Rome thought Christ was concived in March 25th aka the date of the world was started so 9 months later Christ was born Augustine talked about it

 

[Lord's Servant]

Following .... I'd have to see the references and compare. I'm not a Patristics expert.

But I do know some of those things yes, were taught and believed by the early Church.

Some I know of other sources, at least, who would disagree.

Some have great potential for misunderstanding the issue (deification, Easter, icons).

And a few I couldn't comment on.

I have a busy few days, but I'm interested in following this.

Ah I see then and I know polycarp and victor of Rome disagreed on time of Easter will be celebrated because it was different and both had apostlic tradition to back up their own claim polycarp had John and Phillip and victor had Paul and Peter

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Um no. Christmas came North Africa Clement of Alexandria calculated Jesus birth and he came up with January 6th and hippoytus of Rome thought Christ was concived in March 25th aka the date of the world was started so 9 months later Christ was born Augustine talked about it

Sure, that's why I alluded to the fact that it was more than just Pope Julius I involved in the Western setting of Christmas, and I only mentioned the 'results' of the Orthodox decision. I wasn't intending to get into specifics. Regardless, I'm not here to debate, and I don't intend on turning this into a "Christmas, or not Christmas" thread. We also have to keep in mind that not everything Polycarp thought or did, let alone that of any of the early Church Fathers, was perhaps exactly right on with the New Testament Apostolic teaching.

Anyway, I'm still interested in reading Polycarp more fully in the near future.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[FireDragon76]

Well Christmas didn't come from saturnalia but that's a different story and to me some of it sounds like heresy

Christmas/Epiphany parallels Chanukkah. In fact the symbolism of each holiday is similar. The early church actually celebrated Epiphany as the major holiday. Christmas is the "Good Friday" of this season in the early church, and still is in eastern churches.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I've read some of polycarp letters and I've never heard of these beliefs he supposedly believe in

Here is a summary of some of Polycarp’s doctrinal beliefs and practices:

Easter per se was not observed by the apostolic church, and Polycarp fought against it.

Passover was kept on the 14th of Nisan Polycarp.

The Sabbath was observed on Saturday by Polycarp.
The Ten Commandments were observed by the apostolic and true post-apostolic Christians, including Polycarp

Not sure what you mean as "per se". Polycarp as well as his mentor John were part of the Eastern Catholic Church, which understandably was much more "Jewish" in its tradition. The Eastern Churches today celebrate Pascha and the Sabbath is still on Saturday (although it is not kept as Judaism did). We also still hold the 10 Commandments. Much of the problem between Easter in the West and Pascha/Passover in the East was an issue on when to stop fasting...on the 14th or on the Sunday of Resurrection.

 

[Lord's Servant]

I quoted off a website the author says it I just quoted it but some of the things he believes are heresy and blasphemy concerning the holy trinity

 

[Lord's Servant]

Christmas/Epiphany parallels Chanukkah. In fact the symbolism of each holiday is similar. The early church actually celebrated Epiphany as the major holiday. Christmas is the "Good Friday" of this season in the early church, and still is in eastern churches.

yes I know Epiphany was celebrated in the second century I believe so

 

[John 1720]

I've read some of polycarp letters and I've never heard of these beliefs he supposedly believe in

Here is a summary of some of Polycarp’s doctrinal beliefs and practices:

A Binitarian view, that acknowledged the Holy Spirit, was held by the apostolic and post-apostolic true Christian leaders, like Polycarp.
Hierarchical church governance was advocated by Polycarp.
The canon of the New Testament was known by Polycarp as he seemed to refer to all the books it in the famous Polycarp’s Letter to the Philippians.
Christmas was not observed by Polycarp nor any professing Christ prior to the third century, or ever by those holding to early teachings.
Deification of Christians after the resurrection was taught by the early leaders of the Church, including Polycarp.
Easter per se was not observed by the apostolic church, and Polycarp fought against it.
The Fall Holy Days were observed by true early Christians, including Polycarp.
The Father was considered to be God by all early professing Christians, including Polycarp.
Polycarp taught against idols (and that would include icons).
Polycarp taught against the immortality of the soul.
Jesus was considered to be God by the true Christians, including Polycarp.
The Kingdom of God was taught by Polycarp.
Leavened Bread was removed from the homes of early Christians like Polycarp.
Lent was not observed by Polycarp.
Limbo was not taught by Polycarp.
Military Service was not allowed for true early Christians like Polycarp.
Millenarianism (a literal thousand year reign of Christ on Earth, often called the millennium) was taught by the early Christians who succeeded Polycarp.
Passover was kept on the 14th of Nisan Polycarp.
Purgatory was not taught by Polycarp.
The Resurrection of the dead was taught Polycarp.
The Sabbath was observed on Saturday by Polycarp.
The Ten Commandments were observed by the apostolic and true post-apostolic Christians, including Polycarp

Hello Lord's Servant,
I don't think Polycarp taught all that, at least in the sparse letters that are extant. Can you reference those statements to his actual writings? I did that for his letter to the Philippians.

• Polycarp to the Philippians (Lightfoot translation)

Here's what I gleaned from his letter to the Philippians pre AD 107

1. Polycarp was glad to hear the Church of Philippi had received his delegation from the church at Smyrna 1:1
2. Jesus was raised from the dead and the Philippians believed this though never had seen. They were saved by grace not works. 1:2-3
3. Jesus presently sits at the right hand of the Father in Power 2:1
4. Because Jesus was raised from the dead so shall we be raised if we walk according to His will and obey His law of love. 2:2
5. He talks about Paul being among them and writing a letter to them when he was absent from their body, reminding them that Paul preached the true faith. 2:2-3
6. Faith is the mother of us all, afterwards follows hope but, before all, is the Love that comes from God 3:1-2
7. And that is what we teach our families 4:1:3
8. our widows must be soberminded and prayerful lifting up all
9. God is not mocked we need to be obedient to Christ 5:1
10. Echoes 1 Timothy 3 about leadership roles within the church; qualification of elders, deacons, and the rest of the body of believers. 5:2-6:1
11. And we all need to remember to forgive one another even as we have been forgiven for we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ 6:2
12. Serve Him therefore with all reverence avoiding entanglement with false preachers and hypocrites 6:3
13. Do not let anyone pervert the Oracles of the Lord but instead remind everyone of the resurrection and the judgment to come. 7:1
14. Let us forsake our vanities praying always to be delivered from our temptations 7:2
15. And hold fast to our hope in Jesus who took our sins upon Himself that we might live in Him and through Him 8:1
16. Being imitators of Christ like the Apostles were, as well as those that followed after them, running the race that established them in their heavenly place 8:2-9:2
17. Do good to all with soberness and gentleness that the Lord’s Name would gain renown & not be blasphemed 10:1-3
18. Beware of covetness, which has already undone a presbyter among their church 11:1
19. For covetness can lead to idolatry and judgment 11:2
20. Talks about gently restoring such a one through repentance 11:3-12:1
21. Echoes the priestly role of Jesus, the Son of God, who is advocating for us. Again mentions resurrection. 12:2
22. Pray for all the saints, for Kings and Governors, and for our enemies that we might be made perfect in Christ. 12:3
23. Much about local happenings with Ignatius who wound up being martyred in AD107 and other church members 13:1-14:1

Blessings to you and your family
In Christ, Pat

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I don't think he taught all that, at least in the sparse letters that are extant. Can you reference those to his writings

The Easter/Passover controversy was in a letter to Pope Victor from Polycarp. Christians in Jerusalem and in Asia Minor celebrated Passover on the 14th of the first month (Aviv), while the churches in and around Rome changed to the practice of celebrating Easter on the following Sunday. The practice in these Eastern Churches was for the pre-Paschal fast to end and the feast to be held on the 14th day (the full moon).

Irenaeus says that Polycarp visited Rome when Anicetus was its bishop (c. 68-153), and among the topics discussed was this divergence of custom, with Rome instituting the festival of Easter in place of the Passover. Irenaeus wrote: Neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp not to observe what he had always observed with John the disciple of our Lord, and the others with whom he had associated; neither could Polycarp persuade Anicetus to observe it, as he said that he ought to follow the customs of the presbyters that had preceded him.

Sozoman also wrote: As the bishops of the West did not deem it necessary to dishonor the tradition handed down to them by Peter and by Paul, and as, on the other hand, the Asiatic bishops persisted in following the rules laid down by John the evangelist, they unanimously agreed to continue in the observance of the festival according to their respective customs, without separation from communion with each other. They faithfully and justly assumed, that those who accorded in the essentials of worship ought not to separate from one another on account of customs. Later,
bishop Victor in 193 AD sent a letter about the matter to Polycrates and the churches of the province of Asia. Within the same year, Polycrates presided over a council at Ephesus attended by several bishops throughout that province, which rejected Victor's authority and kept the province's paschal tradition. Polycrates emphatically stated that he was following the tradition passed down to him: We observe the exact day; neither adding, nor taking away. For in Asia also great lights have fallen asleep, which shall rise again on the day of the Lord's coming... All these observed the fourteenth day of the Passover according to the Gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith. And I also, Polycrates, the least of you all, do according to the tradition of my relatives, some of whom I have closely followed. For seven of my relatives were bishops; and I am the eighth. And my relatives always observed the day when the people put away the leaven.

By the early 4th century most Christians were celebrating Easter on a Sunday, but there were still some who held to the 14th.

 

[Lord's Servant]

The Easter/Passover controversy was in a letter to Pope Victor from Polycarp. Christians in Jerusalem and in Asia Minor celebrated Passover on the 14th of the first month (Aviv), while the churches in and around Rome changed to the practice of celebrating Easter on the following Sunday. The practice in these Eastern Churches was for the pre-Paschal fast to end and the feast to be held on the 14th day (the full moon).

Irenaeus says that Polycarp visited Rome when Anicetus was its bishop (c. 68-153), and among the topics discussed was this divergence of custom, with Rome instituting the festival of Easter in place of the Passover. Irenaeus wrote: Neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp not to observe what he had always observed with John the disciple of our Lord, and the others with whom he had associated; neither could Polycarp persuade Anicetus to observe it, as he said that he ought to follow the customs of the presbyters that had preceded him.

Sozoman also wrote: As the bishops of the West did not deem it necessary to dishonor the tradition handed down to them by Peter and by Paul, and as, on the other hand, the Asiatic bishops persisted in following the rules laid down by John the evangelist, they unanimously agreed to continue in the observance of the festival according to their respective customs, without separation from communion with each other. They faithfully and justly assumed, that those who accorded in the essentials of worship ought not to separate from one another on account of customs. Later,
bishop Victor in 193 AD sent a letter about the matter to Polycrates and the churches of the province of Asia. Within the same year, Polycrates presided over a council at Ephesus attended by several bishops throughout that province, which rejected Victor's authority and kept the province's paschal tradition. Polycrates emphatically stated that he was following the tradition passed down to him: We observe the exact day; neither adding, nor taking away. For in Asia also great lights have fallen asleep, which shall rise again on the day of the Lord's coming... All these observed the fourteenth day of the Passover according to the Gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith. And I also, Polycrates, the least of you all, do according to the tradition of my relatives, some of whom I have closely followed. For seven of my relatives were bishops; and I am the eighth. And my relatives always observed the day when the people put away the leaven.

By the early 4th century most Christians were celebrating Easter on a Sunday, but there were still some who held to the 14th.

Thank you very for that information

 

[Lord's Servant]

And polycarp taught the Trinity I believe so because at his death he reference to the Trinity

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ah I see then and I know polycarp and victor of Rome disagreed on time of Easter will be celebrated because it was different and both had apostlic tradition to back up their own claim polycarp had John and Phillip and victor had Paul and Peter

Yes, there was a great deal of disagreement and discussion about WHEN to fast and when to observe, but I wouldn't translate that into saying that he was against it altogether.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Ah I see then and I know polycarp and victor of Rome disagreed on time of Easter will be celebrated because it was different and both had apostlic tradition to back up their own claim polycarp had John and Phillip and victor had Paul and Peter

I think John taught Polycarp to celebrate Passover on the 14th as this was the Biblical commandment and was also when Yeshua instituted the memorial of His death in the bread and wine. While this would be correct, Yom HaBikkurim would be celebrated on that Sunday, which would be the day of His Resurrection. 50 days later would be Shavuot...Pentecost. So in essence, both were correct.

 

[Lord's Servant]

The author says that St polycarp didn't taught the Trinity but this quote proves that assumption wrong Martyrdom of Polycarp 22:3 “the Lord Jesus Christ gather me also with his chosen into his heavenly kingdom! To him be glory with the Father and the holy Spirit forever and ever. Amen.”



The beloved Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna, who claimed he had been a “Christian for eighty-six years,” was also, according to Irenaeus and Eusebius, a disciple of the Apostle John. In his last prayer before he was martyred, Polycarp glorifies the triune God:
O Lord God Almighty, the Father of thy beloved and blessed Son Jesus Christ, by whom we have received the knowledge of Thee . . . I give Thee thanks that Thou hast counted me, worthy of this day and this hour, that I should have a part in the number of Thy martyrs, in the cup of thy Christ, to the resurrection of eternal life, both of soul and body, through the incorruption [imparted] by the Holy Ghost. . . . Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen (emphasis added; Martyrdom of Polycarp, 14).

 

[John 1720]

The Easter/Passover controversy was in a letter to Pope Victor from Polycarp. Christians in Jerusalem and in Asia Minor celebrated Passover on the 14th of the first month (Aviv), while the churches in and around Rome changed to the practice of celebrating Easter on the following Sunday. The practice in these Eastern Churches was for the pre-Paschal fast to end and the feast to be held on the 14th day (the full moon).

Irenaeus says that Polycarp visited Rome when Anicetus was its bishop (c. 68-153), and among the topics discussed was this divergence of custom, with Rome instituting the festival of Easter in place of the Passover. Irenaeus wrote: Neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp not to observe what he had always observed with John the disciple of our Lord, and the others with whom he had associated; neither could Polycarp persuade Anicetus to observe it, as he said that he ought to follow the customs of the presbyters that had preceded him.

Sozoman also wrote: As the bishops of the West did not deem it necessary to dishonor the tradition handed down to them by Peter and by Paul, and as, on the other hand, the Asiatic bishops persisted in following the rules laid down by John the evangelist, they unanimously agreed to continue in the observance of the festival according to their respective customs, without separation from communion with each other. They faithfully and justly assumed, that those who accorded in the essentials of worship ought not to separate from one another on account of customs. Later,
bishop Victor in 193 AD sent a letter about the matter to Polycrates and the churches of the province of Asia. Within the same year, Polycrates presided over a council at Ephesus attended by several bishops throughout that province, which rejected Victor's authority and kept the province's paschal tradition. Polycrates emphatically stated that he was following the tradition passed down to him: We observe the exact day; neither adding, nor taking away. For in Asia also great lights have fallen asleep, which shall rise again on the day of the Lord's coming... All these observed the fourteenth day of the Passover according to the Gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith. And I also, Polycrates, the least of you all, do according to the tradition of my relatives, some of whom I have closely followed. For seven of my relatives were bishops; and I am the eighth. And my relatives always observed the day when the people put away the leaven.

By the early 4th century most Christians were celebrating Easter on a Sunday, but there were still some who held to the 14th.

Yes, he followed John's teaching concerning the Nissan 14 crucifixion and first fruits day for the resurrection. But his teaching on this is only capyured in ftagments preserved by Irenaeus, Eusebius and Jerome. When we talk about what Polycarp himself actually believed it is more appropriate to quote from his extant written works.
In Christ, Patrick