Poll: Should Democrats follow Hillary Clinton and Abandon Civility?

[zippy2006]

Aside from that, I only hear about the worst cases, but they're... uh. Judge for yourself.

Sure, allow me to clarify a bit.

You were focusing on the character and incivility of Trump as something opposed to conservative values. I ended up saying that conservative support for Trump isn't as ubiquitous as the Left seems to believe. Then we ended up here. I suppose I could just highlight the words, "worst cases," and call it a day, but I'll try not to be that lazy tonight.

Only one Trump supporter in that CNN video favored the character of Trump--apparently seeing him as a candidate for the Second Coming. The rest focused on the things that voters always focus on: the economy, the markets, insurance, the unemployment rate, etc. Moderate conservatives may support Trump, but in a qualified way that does not extend to his character or ...tweets. There is support, but it coexists with a level of distrust and accountability, and I think that ought to assuage the fascism concerns. Policy-wise there obviously remain many points of difference between the Right and the Left; Trump tends to support the policies of the Right; and there are a number of positive statistics which have arisen in the last two years that conservatives will naturally highlight and include as criteria for a successful term.

It's complicated, but the fascism concerns strike me as extreme. Both sides need to be cautious with their sources, acknowledging them to be biased and incomplete. I've heard stories about CNN's leanings, but that interviewer (along with the person who captioned the video) was not even trying to be impartial. When Trump was elected I knew someone who monitored a suicide hotline. He was telling me that an absurd number of gay persons were calling in, legitimately fearing for their life in the wake of the election. That fear was not based in reality; the callers were victims of fear mongering and political use. My friend--a strong liberal--was forced to find sources to defend Trump against those charges in order to console his suicidal callers. Needless to say, finding those sources was quite easy.

 

[Silmarien]

Sure, allow me to clarify a bit.

You were focusing on the character and incivility of Trump as something opposed to conservative values. I ended up saying that conservative support of Trump isn't as ubiquitous as the Left seems to believe. Then we ended up here. I suppose I could just highlight the words, "worst cases," and call it a day, but I'll try not to be that lazy tonight.

Only one Trump supporter in that CNN video favored the character of Trump--apparently seeing him as a candidate for the Second Coming. The rest focused on the things that voters always focus on: the economy, the markets, insurance, the unemployment rate, etc. Moderate conservatives may support Trump, but in a qualified way that does not extend to his character or ...tweets. And really I think that ought to assuage the facist concerns. Policy-wise there obviously remain many points of difference between the Right and the Left; Trump tends to support the policies of the Right; and there are a number of positive statistics which have arisen in the last two years that conservatives will naturally highlight and include as criteria for a successful term.

You know, I think I've been communicating really badly here. I'm not actually concerned about a fascist state right now, and even two years ago, once the cabinet started shaping up, I was more worried about the administration rolling back civil rights (rightly, I think) than dealing with an actual Mussolini. I'm not sure why I keep on bringing things back to the fascism angle--probably because it's the most explicit example of the sort of phenomenon available without just out and out Godwinning the thread. I'm thinking about the little ways that people can get inured to cruelty (think prison abuse) that can under the wrong circumstances manifest as an actual genocide. It's all about tribalism and power, I think.

My other concern is... well, I really liked Obama, but he made a number of calculated moves that went against liberal values. Expansion of government surveillance, the covert drone war. Very few people on the left actually criticized any of this. Because when you're in power, it's easy to just sit back and let things happen. Maybe later, you'll say, "Well, I guess that was something I really ought to have opposed."

That was one of the things I was worried about after the election, because I was coming to realize just how many things we'd let slide. And I knew that something similar was likely to happen on the right as well, though this time with a would-be demagogue.

Though this whole thing is really wrapped up in some personal realizations, of course, in this case about human nature in general. My optimism died hard.

It's complicated, but the fascist concerns strike me as extreme. Both sides need to be cautious with their sources, acknowledging them to be biased and incomplete. I've heard stories about CNN's leanings, but that interviewer (along with the person who captioned the video) was not even trying to be impartial. When Trump was elected I knew someone who monitored a suicide hotline. He was telling me that an absurd number of gay persons were calling in, legitimately fearing for their life in the wake of the election. That fear was not based in reality; the callers were victims of fear mongering and political use. My friend--a strong liberal--was forced to find sources to defend Trump against those charges in order to console his suicidal callers. Needless to say, finding those sources was quite easy.

Ahh, yes. Good times were had by all.

But yeah, the media really needs to be more responsible all around. And no, I would happily admit that CNN and MSNBC are partisan as can be. They're basically the equivalent of Fox News these days. I didn't post the clip as an example of good journalism... just as something from a Trump supporter that shocked even me.

 

[Rion]

Not sure where to share this, but I think that it is funny:

"If we can't have our way, let's abolish it. "

 

[zippy2006]

You know, I think I've been communicating really badly here. I'm not actually concerned about a fascist state right now, and even two years ago, once the cabinet started shaping up, I was more worried about the administration rolling back civil rights (rightly, I think) than dealing with an actual Mussolini. I'm not sure why I keep on bringing things back to the fascism angle--probably because it's the most explicit example of the sort of phenomenon available without just out and out Godwinning the thread. I'm thinking about the little ways that people can get inured to cruelty (think prison abuse) that can under the wrong circumstances manifest as an actual genocide. It's all about tribalism and power, I think.

My other concern is... well, I really liked Obama, but he made a number of calculated moves that went against liberal values. Expansion of government surveillance, the covert drone war. Very few people on the left actually criticized any of this. Because when you're in power, it's easy to just sit back and let things happen. Maybe later, you'll say, "Well, I guess that was something I really ought to have opposed."

That was one of the things I was worried about after the election, because I was coming to realize just how many things we'd let slide. And I knew that something similar was likely to happen on the right as well, though this time with a would-be demagogue.

Though this whole thing is really wrapped up in some personal realizations, of course, in this case about human nature in general. My optimism died hard.

Agreed. Except about the fear of Godwinning. I think that gets taken way too far.

Of course the other problem is that both the terms "liberal" and "conservative" require some disambiguation these days, and there are folks on each side who resent the change.

Ahh, yes. Good times were had by all.

But yeah, the media really needs to be more responsible all around. And no, I would happily admit that CNN and MSNBC are partisan as can be. They're basically the equivalent of Fox News these days. I didn't post the clip as an example of good journalism... just as something from a Trump supporter that shocked even me.

I know you didn't and I wasn't calling you on that. I was just expecting a bit more from CNN. And yes, there is a great deal of irony surrounding that Trump supporter.

The journalism problem frustrates me but it seems entrenched. I mean, is there incentive for an attempt at an impartial view at this point? Apparently not? Even if you find an honest, factual reporter, representative coverage still doesn't seem to make it onto the to-do list. I'm more interested in a solution that doesn't require virtue from media outlets but may generate some incentive even there if that value--truth--could gain momentum.

 

[jardiniere]

This is so much fun! I do wish Democrats could be more civil than Republicans, however, it's such a low bar to begin with, however would we tell the difference?

Republican threatens golf spike stomping.
Republican suggests shooting congressman.
Republican threatens to put a bullet in a colleague's head.

Frankly, I think the Democrats might just be the slow learners, here.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Not sure where to share this, but I think that it is funny:
View attachment 243215
"If we can't have our way, let's abolish it. "

Jindal and Santorum said the same thing on their respective campaign trails after SCOTUS ruled on gay marriage.

It was a dumb idea then, and it still is.

 

[Chesterton]

You realize that economic exploitation is a thing, right?

Oh yeah. I had a job once.

You're generalizing.

"Conservative" and "liberal" are general terms, aren't they? I'm conservative, but for example, I'm a big proponent of prison reform, which most conservatives are not. And there are a couple of other things.

And you're arguing with the wrong person, since I think Rousseau was basically insane and am more intrigued by Stuart Mill.

I'm just trying to explain how I see things since you asked.

I don't believe in earthly utopia at all, but pessimism doesn't have to mean fatalism.

Agreed. In politics and economics there are positive things which can be done depending on circumstances. It's just that, IMO, things are so messed up by liberals at this point in history that more needs to be undone than done.

If you really want an answer to that, wikipedia should suffice: Judicial interpretation - Wikipedia

Even the Wiki states: "Terms describing types of judicial interpretation can be ambiguous; for example, the term judicial conservatism..." If I correctly assume that the term "judicial conservatism" is synonomous with "conservative jurisprudence", then apparently Wiki doesn't know either. Then it goes on to list 10 different bases for judicial interpretation, and none of their brief descriptions mentions anything to do with conservatism.

Of course you can say that Originalism and Strict Constructionism are conservative ideas, and unfortunately that's true by labeling them such after the fact. Again, I see it as common sense, so I simply don't recognize a theory which doesn't include those ideas to be valid. It's like this: you tell me there are people who believe the proper way to eat food is with one's mouth. We call these people conservatives. Now in contrast, there are these other people who believe the proper way to eat..."STOP", I say. "I don't even need to hear their idea. I already know it has to be wrong."

Eh... you really need to get over your hatred of liberals. Seems unhealthy.

Why'd you say that? I don't hate anyone. I asked you why your school would like to pretend Scalia didn't exist. You didn't answer and instead asked me, so I thought to myself, if someone said to me "Chesterton, from now on I'm going to pretend you don't exist", the only general thing I could most likely conclude is that they dislike me.

 

[USincognito]

As they should. "Snowflake" is one of the most appropriate and accurate metaphorical insults to arise in my lifetime.

And misused.

 

[Andrew77]

Yeah, because Trump is a paragon of gentility.

Ok, well prove it by being better than him.

Didn't Hillary famously say "when they go low, we go high"?

Walk the talk, sparky.

 

[zippy2006]

Didn't Hillary famously say "when they go low, we go high"?

Did you catch the OP?

 

[Chesterton]

And misused.

Pretty much anything can be misused.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Ok, well prove it by being better than him.

Anyone who's never grabbed a woman by her genitalia has already accomplished this.

Didn't Hillary famously say "when they go low, we go high"?


Walk the talk, sparky.

Actually, that was Michelle Obama.

If you're going to attempt to use Alinsky tactics, you might want to get your facts straight, sparky.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Civility has been gone for a decade. I'm not sure how you can abandon something that doesn't exist.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Ok, well prove it by being better than him.

I was tempted to respond yesterday with something snarky, but didn't.

Mission Accomplished.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Sadly, nearly 30% of respondents now believe Democrats are under no obligation to be civil.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Sadly, nearly 30% of respondents now believe Democrats are under no obligation to be civil.

And how many of those respondents are themselves Democrats?

 

[NightHawkeye]

And how many of those respondents are themselves Democrats?

You tell me.

 

[whatbogsends]

The poll itself presents a false dichotomy. The Democrats could abandon civility and still be more civil than Republicans.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The inability of Hillary to associate and think logically is scary. Scary that she almost became president.
So according to her, if the opposing party is against your policies it is ok to be uncivil?
Sorry.. that is just illogical and bizarre. Of course the opposing party is going to be against your policies.
That is why they are an "opposing" party.
So by her logic when and if the libs ever get back anything... it will be ok for the conservatives to immediately launch a campaign of violence against them.
Like I said. That just does not make sense. But I am glad the left is making such illogical and violence prone statements... Victory in Nov. Victory in 2020.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I'll give Clinton credit for not messing up the economy.

Mainly for doing nothing at all. They best you can hope for when the Dems are in power is that they do nothing. Which is usually the case.