Politics and the Bible

[createdtoworship]

The new battle unleashed by the hand of satan is to divide Christianity politically , indict us as hypocrites and embarrass us in front of our mission field .

I ain't fall'n for it and will remain ...set apart.

The American church is on a slippery slope with its political idolatry. Partisan Politics has become the golden calf. Many value political expediency instead of biblical obedience. Party rhetoric has become the dogma and mere men their idols. The Lord has seen this. There are christians and non christian on both sides. Let's follow Jesus.

Jesus was not a politician. I read a lot of books, I read financial books, fiction, non fiction you name it. But I have ADD so I get bored easily if the material is not very good, I will put the book down almost instantly. I have been going through all of the kindle unlimited, highly rated religious books. One book was by conservative Dennis Prager, who is a Jew. I was excited to read this book. It was highly rated. And I noticed that it is a very dry commentary on the old testament. I love his conservative material. Although I have been leaning more toward the Bible and not on conservative issues at all. For instance I don't think building a wall is moral. Why would a wealthy nation keep poor people out? If we simply went back on the gold standard (God knows we have pleny of Gold reserves to partially back the dollar), we would do well for the dollar bill. This would carry over into the stock market, which created jobs. And we could import millions of refugees as cheap labor. Everyone wins. Refugees get a new home, our economy gets corrected. As long as they reform social security to patch the leaking hole to make it more healthy for the long term. And reform healthcare, I think we do ok. But that is another topic. The book by dennis prager, he is a genius. But He is not good at writing commentary on scripture. See God gives us gifts. When we focus on politics and not Jesus, our Bible studies are dryer as a result. When we look at illegal immigration as a sin, and all illegals as criminals (that is prejudice, and racist). Against the scriptures. Yes there are some walls in scripture, even heaven has a wall and a gate. I am not talking about that. There is no wall in the Bible that keeps specifically one people group out. That is not Biblical. But anyway, I love prager U I think it has some good material that is not being taught, I love Dennis Prager. But imagine what would happen if He got saved. IF he gave His life over to Jesus and instead of worshipping a dead God of the old testament, realized the power of Christ over sin. Not just to cover sin from the blood of animals but to remove that sin. It alone would change everyone's politics. (unsubscribing, I just wanted to start this thread). I have no intention of debating politics. I don't have the patience nor the godliness to put up with negative posts. But anyway, enjoy this topic.


Here is an updated OP:

Mike McIntyre, a North Carolina Democrat who believes that the Ten Commandments are “the fundamental legal code for the laws of the United States” and thus ought to be on display in schools and courthouses. (source below)

For legal representation on why this is a Christian nation read here:
Politics and the Bible

and the second post here:
Politics and the Bible
Senator Brownback, Senator Pryor, and Representative Wolf told me of their involvement in interviews. I met Senator Ensign while he was living in the C Street House, a former convent maintained as a group home for congressmen by a Family-affiliated organization, and Senators Grassley and Nelson and Representative Pitts are well represented in the Family’s archives. Senator Coburn told the reporter Tom Hess of his residence in C Street House and his participation in a Family cell for a feature in James Dobson’s Citizen magazine, “‘There’s No One I’m Afraid to Challenge,’” accessed at Home on October 10, 2004. Senator Thune cited the Family’s leader, Doug Coe, and a house the Family maintains on Capitol Hill in a Christianity Today interview with Collin Hansen (Q & A: John Thune, accessed January 7, 2007). Most of the rest of these men were spoken of as members by Ivanwalders and senior men in the Family—for instance, Steve South, former senior counsel for Senator Don Nickles, told me of Senator Domenici’s involvement, confirmed in the Family’s archives (file 15, box 354, collection 459, Papers of the Fellowship Foundation, Billy Graham Center Archives [hereafter cited as BGCA]). I’ve no reason to doubt these claims; members of the Family are scrupulous about distinguishing between members, those who have joined a prayer cell or made some other commitment to the work, and friends, those with whom they’re comfortable working. Representative Eric Cantor, for instance, a Jewish Republican from Virginia, is just a friend. Representative McIntyre, who joined Representative Wolf ’s prayer cell, is a member. This is only a partial list. The Family believes in a concentric model of holiness, with a few key men close to Christ at the center (Representative Pitts, for instance), another circle of active supporters farther out (Senator Grassley), followed by one of casual allies (such as Senator Pryor) who are mostly unaware of the group’s inner workings.

 

[timothyu]

There was a reason Jesus said to let the world of man continue as it has and to live separately but among it (grain among tares which are allowed to grow together until harvest) . That way there is no rebellion and friend and foe can be loved as self. Jesus taught a counter-culture where the division was between the world of man and the Kingdom of God. Man would have us believe the division is within the world alone. Even a church claiming to represent Jesus is divided and feuding over papal leadership. A blind system leading the blind. We cannot stand apart from a culture by fighting it in the way it fights us. The division of world of man and Kingdom must remain intact as does our choice of allegiance.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I agree with almost everything you said (Jesus was a lot more political than people give him credit for), but this got my attention:

The American church is on a slippery slope with its political idolatry.

It's not a slope; it's a cliff. And the American church dove off it a long time ago. There is no "split," just an inevitable splat.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The new battle unleashed by the hand of satan is to divide Christianity politically , indict us as hypocrites and embarrass us in front of our mission field .

New? Hahaha. Sorry that battle already occurred in the 70s and 80s with Jerry Falwell (Moral Majority), Pat Robertson (Christian Coalition) and others taking a particular partisan political stand for their (mainly evangelical/fundamentalist) followers. For all the worries that the Pope was going to tell JFK what to do, it has not been Catholicism that has wedded faith with partisan American politics.

I ain't fall'n for it and will remain ...set apart.

Good for you.

 

[createdtoworship]

Duplicate.

 

[createdtoworship]

So far all good posts, thanks. I was thinking, if christian men simply prayed. Just think about this for a second. What if instead of voting we as christians fasted instead. We would be putting the ballet box in God's hands not our own. Tremendous victory would be accomplished with that one act. God does need ballets to get His will accomplished, He is the God of loop holes. Remember that. Gods kingdom will come and it will be political. But it won't be based on partisan politics, two parties both with good and bad aspects, but one kingdom with perfect policy. I look forward to that day

 

[TLK Valentine]

So far all good posts, thanks. I was thinking, if christian men simply prayed. Just think about this for a second. What if instead of voting we as christians fasted instead. We would be putting the ballet box in God's hands not our own. Tremendous victory would be accomplished with that one act. God does need ballets to get His will accomplished, He is the God of loop holes. Remember that. Gods kingdom will come and it will be political. But it won't be based on partisan politics, two parties both with good and bad aspects, but one kingdom with perfect policy. I look forward to that day

That's all well and good, but until God's Kingdom Come, we who are men and not gods still have to mind the store, as it were. Christians need a plan for the here and now as well as for the future.

 

[createdtoworship]

duplicate

 

[createdtoworship]

There was a reason Jesus said to let the world of man continue as it has and to live separately but among it (grain among tares which are allowed to grow together until harvest) . That way there is no rebellion and friend and foe can be loved as self. Jesus taught a counter-culture where the division was between the world of man and the Kingdom of God. Man would have us believe the division is within the world alone. Even a church claiming to represent Jesus is divided and feuding over papal leadership. A blind system leading the blind. We cannot stand apart from a culture by fighting it in the way it fights us. The division of world of man and Kingdom must remain intact as does our choice of allegiance.

I was thinking this morning while half way asleep. Say God started blessing this nation again, say God inspired a host of new people to create technology patents and other patents that created mega corporations and whole industries. That is not beyond His scope. The point is this. The only reason why conservatives hate universal health coverage and free college is because socialism dictates that the middle class and higher income pay taxes on it. But what if God blessed our nation as to provide free college? Everyone would be able to be able to compete intellectually with one another, no one disqualified financially for competition. This would create many new entrepreneurs. But we would have to do it in a way that tax payers didn't flip the bill. For instance what if we let God back into the education system. Started teaching Bible class, classes for ministry. etc. There would have to be debate on apologetics of course to rule out other religions trying to get in to the system. But that is not that hard, seeing I have debated it for twenty years. I have never had someone convince me another religion was more logical than christianity. Next phase.....what if we had healthcare reform.... See in our valley, there are only three health care providers.....anthem...keiser...and sutter. What if the government regulated big healthcare corporations and said that any time there was less than 10 healthcare providers, for example.....it was a monopoly. This would drive more competition to our area and drive down healthcare. Also pharmaceutical regulation. if a pill literally costs five cents to make they cannot pay 100 dollars a pill. So that would have to be regulated using a scale. For example medicines that took ten years and millions of dollars of research would be a little more. But pills that costed little to create, and little to make, would cost little. No more paying 100 dollars of a five cent pill. This would hit the medical industry like a ton of bricks. Right now investors are fleeing to the medical industry because it's such great revenue. Well we would have to regulate that a bit. To drive down healthcare costs. But capitalists are against regulation. So this is not a partisan issue. Democrats want to tax the middle income and rich for free healthcare, while capitalists want good business and don't want to regulate billion dollar companies. So we would have to compromise on both sides to make this work. Again only Jesus can make cooperation like this. We need Jesus back in politics. Jesus back in school. I think if Christ was at the head of the nation all this stuff will seamlessly come into effect. Within ten years it would be possible to be completely debt free, our credit rating as a nation would go up, healthcare instead of being on the bottom of the barrel globally speaking would go up in quality, as competition engaged for quality care and more revenue for better care. Someone said that some politicians are looking at bringing back the gold standard. That would be a good thing. We have plenty of Gold, and there are some politicians looking into this. That would bring about social security reform and other things as well. Because we could no longer afford to print money for things like medicare and social security. So that sector has more going out than coming in. That would need reform, but I don't know enough about it to say how to fix that. But stabilizing the currency would allow the dollar to outperform the SDR, special drawing rights of the IMF which right now is on the road to becoming the one world currency as found in revelation. We need to revamp how the dollar works. Backing it by gold again I think would peg the currency to something tangible and not just fiat promise and debt. But that also means you cannot print your way out of recessions and may limit liquidity. So this is a big project needing a lot of prayer. So that is why I said....fast for the next president. Even if you fasted one day a week and refused to vote, that would do more for the spiritual well being that using worldly wisdom. We would be putting our faith in God. And saying, God you are in control. You make kings rise and fall, and nations rise and fall. The romans were the only civilization that lasted for thousands of years. Rome was very powerful, there are many works that say....due to liberal sin and gross sin the nation fell. Rome is still studied in all political courses to this day. Why they lasted so long. So it will be of no surprise to the church when the Bible says a resurrected roman empire will come to power in the last days. Is it the roman catholic church? I don't know, is it the vatican? They are fully roman by all means. I am not sure what part they will play. Dave Hunt has a critical work on this called the woman that rides the beast. There is also a book out called, the two babylons, that trace the catholic churches transition to romanistic idolatry. (kissing of statues, praying to idols). That was roman tradition that permeated the imperial catholic church, creating a romanized catholic church. I am not against catholic, but against romanized catholicism. Imperial catholicism was a great thing, most of the patristic church fathers were catholic. Luther also had a problem with romanized catholicism. The popes did not want to get the rome out of the catholic church, so Luther protested it, and created protestantism. It would have been better for heart felt reform to happen among the catholic church so that division did not have to happen. But unfortunately there was a lot of money in the selling of indulgences. It was big business for the church. Luther brought the word of God (the Bible to the common folk), at this day and age, the popes spoke in latin and the congregation literally could not understand the Bible study unless they were latin speakers. So all the catholic missionaries would hold masses in latin. So no one knew the word of God or the gospel. It was at this point the church could create their own system of religion based on the tradition of the church. The pope endorsed a catholic catechism, and this catechism made it possible to be saved if you did the "seven sacraments." Mass, baptism, confession, marriage, communion, and some others I don't remember. So now when I talk to a catholic they never know if they are going to heaven or not. That is because the gospel has become convoluted by the catechism of the pope. We are saved when we repent of sin and turn and trust in Christ alone, it is a gift of grace. It's not because we go to church, say our prayers, take of communion and confess to a priest. Jesus is our priest, He forgives. But anyway, this started as political and ended religious. But anyway, sorry to ramble.

 

[Belk]

View attachment 269234
I was thinking this morning while half way asleep. Say God started blessing this nation again, say God inspired a host of new people to create technology patents and other patents that created mega corporations and whole industries. That is not beyond His scope. The point is this. The only reason why conservatives hate universal health coverage and free college is because socialism dictates that the middle class and higher income pay taxes on it. But what if God blessed our nation as to provide free college? Everyone would be able to be able to compete intellectually with one another, no one disqualified financially for competition. This would create many new entrepreneurs. But we would have to do it in a way that tax payers didn't flip the bill. For instance what if we let God back into the education system. Started teaching Bible class, classes for ministry. etc. There would have to be debate on apologetics of course to rule out other religions trying to get in to the system. But that is not that hard, seeing I have debated it for twenty years. I have never had someone convince me another religion was more logical than christianity. Next phase.....what if we had healthcare reform.... See in our valley, there are only three health care providers.....anthem...keiser...and sutter. What if the government regulated big healthcare corporations and said that any time there was less than 10 healthcare providers, for example.....it was a monopoly. This would drive more competition to our area and drive down healthcare. Also pharmaceutical regulation. if a pill literally costs five cents to make they cannot pay 100 dollars a pill. So that would have to be regulated using a scale. For example medicines that took ten years and millions of dollars of research would be a little more. But pills that costed little to create, and little to make, would cost little. No more paying 100 dollars of a five cent pill. This would hit the medical industry like a ton of bricks. Right now investors are fleeing to the medical industry because it's such great revenue. Well we would have to regulate that a bit. To drive down healthcare costs. But capitalists are against regulation. So this is not a partisan issue. Democrats want to tax the middle income and rich for free healthcare, while capitalists want good business and don't want to regulate billion dollar companies. So we would have to compromise on both sides to make this work. Again only Jesus can make cooperation like this. We need Jesus back in politics. Jesus back in school. I think if Christ was at the head of the nation all this stuff will seamlessly come into effect. Within ten years it would be possible to be completely debt free, our credit rating as a nation would go up, healthcare instead of being on the bottom of the barrel globally speaking would go up in quality, as competition engaged for quality care and more revenue for better care. Someone said that some politicians are looking at bringing back the gold standard. That would be a good thing. We have plenty of Gold, and there are some politicians looking into this. That would bring about social security reform and other things as well. Because we could no longer afford to print money for things like medicare and social security. So that sector has more going out than coming in. That would need reform, but I don't know enough about it to say how to fix that. But stabilizing the currency would allow the dollar to outperform the SDR, special drawing rights of the IMF which right now is on the road to becoming the one world currency as found in revelation. We need to revamp how the dollar works. Backing it by gold again I think would peg the currency to something tangible and not just fiat promise and debt. But that also means you cannot print your way out of recessions and may limit liquidity. So this is a big project needing a lot of prayer. So that is why I said....fast for the next president. Even if you fasted one day a week and refused to vote, that would do more for the spiritual well being that using worldly wisdom. We would be putting our faith in God. And saying, God you are in control. You make kings rise and fall, and nations rise and fall. The romans were the only civilization that lasted for thousands of years. Rome was very powerful, there are many works that say....due to liberal sin and gross sin the nation fell. Rome is still studied in all political courses to this day. Why they lasted so long. So it will be of no surprise to the church when the Bible says a resurrected roman empire will come to power in the last days. Is it the roman catholic church? I don't know, is it the vatican? They are fully roman by all means. I am not sure what part they will play. Dave Hunt has a critical work on this called the woman that rides the beast. There is also a book out called, the two babylons, that trace the catholic churches transition to romanistic idolatry. (kissing of statues, praying to idols). That was roman tradition that permeated the imperial catholic church, creating a romanized catholic church. I am not against catholic, but against romanized catholicism. Imperial catholicism was a great thing, most of the patristic church fathers were catholic. Luther also had a problem with romanized catholicism. The popes did not want to get the rome out of the catholic church, so Luther protested it, and created protestantism. It would have been better for heart felt reform to happen among the catholic church so that division did not have to happen. But unfortunately there was a lot of money in the selling of indulgences. It was big business for the church. Luther brought the word of God (the Bible to the common folk), at this day and age, the popes spoke in latin and the congregation literally could not understand the Bible study unless they were latin speakers. So all the catholic missionaries would hold masses in latin. So no one knew the word of God or the gospel. It was at this point the church could create their own system of religion based on the tradition of the church. The pope endorsed a catholic catechism, and this catechism made it possible to be saved if you did the "seven sacraments." Mass, baptism, confession, marriage, communion, and some others I don't remember. So now when I talk to a catholic they never know if they are going to heaven or not. That is because the gospel has become convoluted by the catechism of the pope. We are saved when we repent of sin and turn and trust in Christ alone, it is a gift of grace. It's not because we go to church, say our prayers, take of communion and confess to a priest. Jesus is our priest, He forgives. But anyway, this started as political and ended religious. But anyway, sorry to ramble.

TL;DR

Paragraphs are a thing.

 

[createdtoworship]

TL;DR

Paragraphs are a thing.

sorry, but that is not something I have time for, I recommend reading it through however and digesting it, not rubbing if off on a technicality.

 

[comana]

sorry, but that is not something I have time for, I recommend reading it through however and digesting it, not rubbing if off on a technicality.

If you want to engage in a discussion it is advisable to make the time to format your writing into paragraphs. It is a visual wall that most will ignore because it is difficult to read.

 

[Silmarien]

Jesus was not a politician.

I would disagree with this. Jesus's ministry was highly politicized, both in terms of the regional conflict with the Jewish religious leaders, and in terms of the wider challenge he posed to the legitimacy of the Roman Empire. It doesn't make sense to me to say that someone who claims to be ushering in the Kingdom of God in contrast to the temporal powers is not being political.

That said, I do agree with you insofar as "conservative" policies are largely an immoral disaster and both parties are engaged in idolatry. None of what you are saying is not political, though. "Maybe we should engage in healthcare and social security reform rather than building a wall" is definitely a political statement.

 

[timothyu]

It doesn't make sense to me to say that someone who claims to be ushering in the Kingdom of God in contrast to the temporal powers is not being political.

That would apply if He were the type of secular messiah the people and priests were expecting

 

[rturner76]

Many people believe that Christ would have most approved of Monarchy. Mostly because the Church does the actual crowning (anointing) of the King/Queen. I think he would have preferred a State government but with the Church's influence rather than State religion.

He did seem to accept Rome's ruling authority so he may of accepted Republic rule or Democracy as long as religion was free.

It is a very interesting topic.

 

[Belk]

sorry, but that is not something I have time for, I recommend reading it through however and digesting it, not rubbing if off on a technicality.

If your communication is so unimportant to you that you can't take time to hit return twice I fail to see why it would be worth my time trying to read through your wall of text.

 

[timothyu]

Mostly because the Church does the actual crowning (anointing) of the King/Queen

Umm.. the prophets appointed kings. In the secular world the church acting as a secular partner did appoint kings but were overstepping their Christian bounds.

 

[TLK Valentine]

major wall of text here, but I'll try to respond:

I was thinking this morning while half way asleep. Say God started blessing this nation again, say God inspired a host of new people to create technology patents and other patents that created mega corporations and whole industries. That is not beyond His scope.

True, but what does that have to do with this nation? Seems that God could bless anyone He chooses with a good idea or two. That isn't beyond His scope, either.

The point is this. The only reason why conservatives hate universal health coverage and free college is because socialism dictates that the middle class and higher income pay taxes on it. But what if God blessed our nation as to provide free college?

If the money were to descend like manna from heaven, not one cent of it would go into free college -- it would go into the pockets of those higher income people.

God's going to have to do better than that.

Everyone would be able to be able to compete intellectually with one another, no one disqualified financially for competition. This would create many new entrepreneurs.

Which would be snapped up by the handful of CEOs working for the system in place...

But we would have to do it in a way that tax payers didn't flip the bill.

Not going to happen. Someone's going to have to pay for it, and those who have aren't going to pay to help those who have not.

For instance what if we let God back into the education system. Started teaching Bible class, classes for ministry. etc.

Who pays?

There would have to be debate on apologetics of course to rule out other religions trying to get in to the system.

So it's the Christian God only -- all those heathens need not apply.

Who pays to keep the theological riff-raff out?

But that is not that hard, seeing I have debated it for twenty years. I have never had someone convince me another religion was more logical than christianity.

Have you ever succeeded in convincing anyone else?

No?

Twenty years is a pretty long stalemate...

Next phase.....what if we had healthcare reform.... See in our valley, there are only three health care providers.....anthem...keiser...and sutter. What if the government regulated big healthcare corporations and said that any time there was less than 10 healthcare providers, for example.....it was a monopoly. This would drive more competition to our area and drive down healthcare.

Assume it's a monopoly... what then to do about it? How would the government entice seven more health care providers to come to an area that's already well-served by three?

Also pharmaceutical regulation. if a pill literally costs five cents to make they cannot pay 100 dollars a pill. So that would have to be regulated using a scale. For example medicines that took ten years and millions of dollars of research would be a little more. But pills that costed little to create, and little to make, would cost little. No more paying 100 dollars of a five cent pill.

And who is going to tell you how much or how long it took to create this pill or that one? The pharmaceutical companies themselves?

This would hit the medical industry like a ton of bricks.

And they would hit back.

Right now investors are fleeing to the medical industry because it's such great revenue. Well we would have to regulate that a bit. To drive down healthcare costs. But capitalists are against regulation. So this is not a partisan issue.

Right, it's an economic issue. Right now the investors are fleeing to the medical industry because it's an unregulated cash cow.

Start regulating it, and the investors will back off.

Democrats want to tax the middle income and rich for free healthcare, while capitalists want good business and don't want to regulate billion dollar companies. So we would have to compromise on both sides to make this work.

Neither side wants to compromise.

Again only Jesus can make cooperation like this.

Clearly He has chosen not to. Remind me again how you expect to cajole Him to change His mind?

We need Jesus back in politics. Jesus back in school.

Why, considering how He abandoned them in the first place?

I think if Christ was at the head of the nation all this stuff will seamlessly come into effect.

Put Christ on the ballot and I'll consider voting for --- whoops! Sorry; He's not a natural-born citizen.

Not that it's an altogether bad idea -- Jesus of Nazareth was a revolutionary, a rabble-rouser, and a class warrior who would have no problem picking up the whip (again), walking into the Senate, and going all "Court of Gentiles" on the politicians... I'd pay to see that.

Within ten years it would be possible to be completely debt free,

We could do it in seven if we followed ancient Israel's example -- declare a Jubilee and erase all debts...

... of course, the bankers of this country would string you up from the nearest tree for suggesting such a thing.

our credit rating as a nation would go up, healthcare instead of being on the bottom of the barrel globally speaking would go up in quality, as competition engaged for quality care and more revenue for better care. Someone said that some politicians are looking at bringing back the gold standard. That would be a good thing. We have plenty of Gold, and there are some politicians looking into this.

Having plenty of Gold would be a problem, actually -- the more we have, the less it's worth... and since the value of our money would depend on it...

That would bring about social security reform and other things as well. Because we could no longer afford to print money for things like medicare and social security. So that sector has more going out than coming in. That would need reform, but I don't know enough about it to say how to fix that. But stabilizing the currency would allow the dollar to outperform the SDR, special drawing rights of the IMF which right now is on the road to becoming the one world currency as found in revelation.

No idea where you're getting this from.

We need to revamp how the dollar works. Backing it by gold again I think would peg the currency to something tangible and not just fiat promise and debt. But that also means you cannot print your way out of recessions and may limit liquidity.

...which means the next recession would lead to a Depression that would make the 1930s look like a sell-off.

Pass.

So this is a big project needing a lot of prayer. So that is why I said....fast for the next president. Even if you fasted one day a week and refused to vote, that would do more for the spiritual well being that using worldly wisdom. We would be putting our faith in God. And saying, God you are in control. You make kings rise and fall, and nations rise and fall.

IOW, do nothing.

Pass.

The romans were the only civilization that lasted for thousands of years. Rome was very powerful, there are many works that say....due to liberal sin and gross sin the nation fell.

People say a lot of silly things.

Rome is still studied in all political courses to this day. Why they lasted so long. So it will be of no surprise to the church when the Bible says a resurrected roman empire will come to power in the last days. Is it the roman catholic church? I don't know, is it the vatican? They are fully roman by all means. I am not sure what part they will play. Dave Hunt has a critical work on this called the woman that rides the beast. There is also a book out called, the two babylons, that trace the catholic churches transition to romanistic idolatry. (kissing of statues, praying to idols). That was roman tradition that permeated the imperial catholic church, creating a romanized catholic church. I am not against catholic, but against romanized catholicism. Imperial catholicism was a great thing, most of the patristic church fathers were catholic. Luther also had a problem with romanized catholicism. The popes did not want to get the rome out of the catholic church, so Luther protested it, and created protestantism. It would have been better for heart felt reform to happen among the catholic church so that division did not have to happen.

And yet divisions do happen.

But unfortunately there was a lot of money in the selling of indulgences. It was big business for the church.

Simony is still big business -- as you pointed out earlier, the American church is bowing before the golden calf.

Luther brought the word of God (the Bible to the common folk), at this day and age, the popes spoke in latin and the congregation literally could not understand the Bible study unless they were latin speakers. So all the catholic missionaries would hold masses in latin. So no one knew the word of God or the gospel. It was at this point the church could create their own system of religion based on the tradition of the church. The pope endorsed a catholic catechism, and this catechism made it possible to be saved if you did the "seven sacraments." Mass, baptism, confession, marriage, communion, and some others I don't remember. So now when I talk to a catholic they never know if they are going to heaven or not. That is because the gospel has become convoluted by the catechism of the pope. We are saved when we repent of sin and turn and trust in Christ alone, it is a gift of grace. It's not because we go to church, say our prayers, take of communion and confess to a priest. Jesus is our priest, He forgives. But anyway, this started as political and ended religious. But anyway, sorry to ramble.

And ramble you did.

The short version of all of this is: "give up, do nothing, let Jesus sort it out."

Pass.

 

[Silmarien]

That would apply if He were the type of secular messiah the people and priests were expecting

Secular is a modern concept, so I don't think it applies to what people's expectations were.

 

[timothyu]

Secular is a modern concept, so I don't think it applies to what people's expectations were.

Secular - material.. same difference.