Polite atheism. Is it possible?

[mcflooble]

I'm sure you coould be a polite atheist, and I consider myself one, in terms of being careful what you say.

But, ultimately, I flat out deny the thing you hold most dear. I honestly feel like an adult talking to a kid who still believes in Santa.

There was some evangelical work going on along my city's main street and we had a bit of a discussion but I felt like I couldn't say anything without being rude, so I gave up on the concept and just said what I honestly felt. The last thing I said to him was (something like):

"My greatest despair is that such good people could believe such nonsense."

I don't want to, but I feel more enlightened than religious people. I feel like I'm in a superior position, and it's a bit embarrassing. It's like when I give beggars money, I hate the appearance of "I'm better than you because I'm being charitable towards you" when the truth is I'm probably just luckier.

I know that people who believe in God are deluded.This is what I've wanted to say for ages. But it sounds so insulting.

I feel that I have to explain why I said "know" rather than "believe". Technically I have to be agnostic, but in the same sense as being agnostic towards the tooth-fairy, so I can confidently assert knowledge.

I don't feel like me denying God is offensive, but just the other parts about how I feel given that I deny God and other people don't. You know, like the parts about Santa clause, you being deluded, etc...

So, I wonder, is it possible to be a polite atheist while still being wholly honest? Because I feel like I have to hide a part of myself.

P.S: I don't want any posts rebutting my denial of God, please (although I'd be happy to talk about it in another thread? But isn't that against the forum rules anyway? Not sure), because I won't change my mind. Even if anything I posted was offensive, because I wanted to show you how I honestly felt without regarding offensiveness like I so often do.

Sorry about the long-windedness.

 

[Hentenza]

LOL!!!! I've heard teenagers like you say worse. It will pass as you get out of the black and white life phase.

I hope that wasn't rude or impolite because it was not intended to be.

 

[BobW188]

If your post is typical of how you discuss the issue - and to some extent even if it is not - I think I see the problem. Rather than focus on the rationale for your belief, you tend to focus on and judge those who hold the opposite opinion.

Much as you may consider John Paul II, Thomas Aquinas, Augustine and Stanley Hauerwas "deluded," you have to acknowledge their intellectual stature. Men and women like this may be wrong; but they are not sloppy thinkers. If you want to discuss, you have to engage the ideas!

True, we all tend to think the other guy is a "bloomin' idjit," but the idea is to set that aside (it never fully goes away) and focus on what's being said, not our conjectures about the person saying it.

 

[drich0150]

Atheism is a system of belief that holds the indivisual as a god or a King over all who do not think as "they" think.. With that much self appointed power it is probably beyonds one's ability to reign in or politely direct your very own brand of delusion at someone who you admittedly think as a lessor person.. So to answer your question directly:

So, I wonder, is it possible to be a polite atheist while still being wholly honest?

Probably not. Or at least not when one comes to a Christian Based forum "looking" for an argument.

 

[mcflooble]

If your post is typical of how you discuss the issue - and to some extent even if it is not - I think I see the problem. Rather than focus on the rationale for your belief, you tend to focus on and judge those who hold the opposite opinion.

Much as you may consider John Paul II, Thomas Aquinas, Augustine and Stanley Hauerwas "deluded," you have to acknowledge their intellectual stature. Men and women like this may be wrong; but they are not sloppy thinkers. If you want to discuss, you have to engage the ideas!

True, we all tend to think the other guy is a "bloomin' idjit," but the idea is to set that aside (it never fully goes away) and focus on what's being said, not our conjectures about the person saying it.

It's not often the parts that I bring up, because, like you say, nothing particularly interesting will come from saying "you're wrong *full stop*." Also, with the deludedness, it's more just in this one particular part of their lives. I don't discount anyone's ideas because they believe in God, because if we're not talking about God then it's not relevant, and if we are, then it's silly not to listen to an argument because the other side is being presented. I have good friends who are Christian.

My original post was more what I think about in my down time, rather than bringing it up in discussions about God. I fully realise that our differing beliefs are just one aspect of our lives, and not a statement of who we are individually. Like if we have different tastes.

I realise my original post might have presented that I "tend to focus on and judge those who hold the opposite opinion", but I can assure you that I don't (with more weight than my own opinion).

I much appreciate your post. If I'm getting it right, you're saying that you can be polite if there's no personal attacks? And I've just thought right now, maybe why I feel uneasy is because belief in God is such a personal thing, that I can't help but feel like I'm personally attacking someone when I attack their beliefs.

 

[mcflooble]

Atheism is a system of belief that holds the indivisual as a god or a King over all who do not think as "they" think.. With that much self appointed power it is probably beyonds one's ability to reign in or politely direct your very own brand of delusion at someone who you admittedly think as a lessor person.. So to answer your question directly:


Probably not. Or at least not when one comes to a Christian Based forum "looking" for an argument.

Thankyou for your honesty.

Firstly, you really misunderstand atheism! It's not a system of belief. It's an absence of belief. I have no delusions that I am a god or king over you or anyone else, religious or not. We just disagree over this particular thing. It would be like claiming lordship over someone because I am better at maths than them (unlikely, I'm terrible at maths), despite being worse in English (more likely).

You raise a good point with the "admittedly think as a lesser person" part, considering my original post. I'm thinking the part about Santa brings particular attention to this. I don't think I emphasised enough that I realise that beliefs about the nature of the world are just one part of us, and not representative of the whole person. I don't consider someone "lesser" because they believe in God any more than I consider someone "lesser" because they believe it's okay to eat meat (I'm not vegetarian) or that red is the best colour (I like blue).

Secondly, I didn't join this forum looking for an argument. I joined this forum to ask one question (why do you believe in God?) which I couldn't ask non-Christians. I started another thread on that, and I didn't and won't argue about why someone believes in God, because you can't choose what you believe.

I love the opportunity in these forums to ask questions and only get Christian posters replying. I enjoy talking about religion, especially with religious people, with neither side trying to (de)convert the other.

 

[bsd31]

I don't believe that being polite has anything to do with being careful what we say. Polite is engaging other people openly and honestly, while focusing on the topics at hand not the person you disagree with. In other words being polite is more about avoiding personal attacks than being careful in how we discuss an issue.

So yes it is quite possible. I did it when I was an atheist and so have billions of others. Same as it is possible to be a polite Christian when dealing with people.

 

[drich0150]

Firstly, you really misunderstand atheism! It's not a system of belief. It's an absence of belief. I have no delusions that I am a god or king over you or anyone else, religious or not. We just disagree over this particular thing. It would be like claiming lordship over someone because I am better at maths than them (unlikely, I'm terrible at maths), despite being worse in English (more likely).

I understand how Atheist wish others to see their system of belief, but even a system of non belief is still a system of belief. Primarily because there are rules, an limitations as what one can believe or not believe and still consider themselves to be atheist.. If anyone could be considered an atheist at any point, (The true definition of the absence of belief) then why the need for a title to describe what it is you do or don't believe?

I don't consider someone "lesser" because they believe in God any more than I consider someone "lesser" because they believe it's okay to eat meat (I'm not vegetarian) or that red is the best colour (I like blue).

No matter what it is about the person that places you in a position of "feeling" superior to another (whether it be trivial or not) the fact remains, you do indeed still place yourself in a position of superiority.

Secondly, I didn't join this forum looking for an argument. I joined this forum to ask one question (why do you believe in God?) which I couldn't ask non-Christians. I started another thread on that, and I didn't and won't argue about why someone believes in God, because you can't choose what you believe.

I originally joined this forum because i was bored. That said, being board has little to do with why I'm still here. Once you asked your original question, your reasoning for staying, and the reason you continue to ask questions or make statements will vary from post to post.

For example, despite the content of your Original thread, this post asks a very loaded question. On the surface It looks to speak about the courtesy of others, but indeed is a measure of courtesy among believers after being confronted or slapped in the face with a charge of a child like system of belief. For a proud man this would indeed be a reason for alarm, but for a true brother your words inadvertently ring with compliment. For it is with a child like faith that we are supposed to approach God.

I love the opportunity in these forums to ask questions and only get Christian posters replying. I enjoy talking about religion, especially with religious people, with neither side trying to (de)convert the other.

I look forward to see whether or not I will be indeed proved wrong.
when I said that it was doubtful that there ever could be a polite atheist.

 

[mcflooble]

@drich0150

I don't know how to use the multi-quote feature, so sorry about that in advance.

I cringe when I read my first post, because it is exactly as you said, a slap in the face. The bit about Santa is perfect for describing situations like this... I don't feel good saying those things, but it's (what I see as) the truth. Luckily there's usually not a need to bring up what I posted originally (because just saying "I'm atheist" makes it pretty clear - one reason why there's a title) so the issue can be dodged.

The title is needed because there are so many who do believe, and I suppose it beats being labelled "titleless".

About atheism being a belief system... I disagree that it's a belief system but agree that it's a belief (when applied to the possibility of any god existing, which it is).

About the position of superiority... Yes. Does that make it impolite? If so then teachers are very rude... If not then it's okay then.

About the "your words inadvertently ring with compliment"... I'm glad about that, I really am, the last thing I want to do is offend anyone (which is what this thread is all about, really)

 

[drich0150]

The bit about Santa is perfect for describing situations like this...

The bit about Santa may be accurate in describing or conveying how you look at a faith based belief system, but in general when looking at Christianity or any other faith based religion to a fairy tale, you are comparing apples to oranges. Santa has a shelf life, meaning it was never meant to be taken seriously. Plus when you look at Santa compared to any other religion you are foregoing a documented history. a history in most cases who's age are generally thousands of years old, and yet can be more complete and consistent than the original documented works we have of Shakespeare. (a few hundred years.) Yet when we read through the works of Shakespeare we do not doubt or question who penned (or completed) his sonnets and plays..

a belief in a fairy tales may be a quick way to dismiss a faith based belief, especially when "we" have such solid science and history to back up a belief in facts. One of the things we have genuinely learned from recent history is not to foolish underestimate someone because they do not believe as you do..

The Japanese though if they sufficiently bloody our nose at pearl harbor the American will to fight would be lost.. Just like we underestimated Japan's ability to make war, so we were not ready when war came. In the end we were both proved wrong about our heart felt stereo types of each other...
I guess the question will be: Where will you be standing when the final bomb is dropped? Where will you be at the end of this life?

Yes. Does that make it impolite? If so then teachers are very rude...

Teachers are in a unique position. In that, They are placed in a set of circumstances in which those who come to them, seek to be taught. Kinda like this forum. It is set up for those who have questions about Christianity or those non christians who struggle, can seek a Christian perspective. Where the "impoliteness" arises is when the student or the one seeking a christian perspective forgets his role and begins to teach, or treats his teachers as students. The Christians here, are not here to "learn" of the current popular world view. We are here to help those who seek to bridge that gap from said world view, to one that is more conducive to a personal relationship with God.

 

[BobW188]

Keep in mind that when I'm talking about John Paul and the others, my point is that they are Christian theists; and can't be dismissed as "delusional." They are first-rate thinkers with reasons to believe as they do; and those reasons warrant your reflection and analysis.
It's this I have in mind, not just politeness. They may be wrong, (though, as my icon shows, I don't think so), but they are certainly certifiably sane.
If you're serious in learning why many intelligent people believe, you might check out authors like John Polkinghorne, Alistair McGrath, Francis Collins and C. S. Lewis.

 

[mcflooble]

Keep in mind that when I'm talking about John Paul and the others, my point is that they are Christian theists; and can't be dismissed as "delusional." They are first-rate thinkers with reasons to believe as they do; and those reasons warrant your reflection and analysis.
It's this I have in mind, not just politeness. They may be wrong, (though, as my icon shows, I don't think so), but they are certainly certifiably sane.
If you're serious in learning why many intelligent people believe, you might check out authors like John Polkinghorne, Alistair McGrath, Francis Collins and C. S. Lewis.

Thanks for the recommended reading! I was going to start another thread asking for some! I've only read one pro-God book (The Reason For God) and one anti-God book (The God Delusion). I'm going to be borrowing another pro-God book from my friend soon, I've forgotten the title but it's her favourite one.

 

[mcflooble]

The bit about Santa may be accurate in describing or conveying how you look at a faith based belief system, but in general when looking at Christianity or any other faith based religion to a fairy tale, you are comparing apples to oranges. Santa has a shelf life, meaning it was never meant to be taken seriously. Plus when you look at Santa compared to any other religion you are foregoing a documented history. a history in most cases who's age are generally thousands of years old, and yet can be more complete and consistent than the original documented works we have of Shakespeare. (a few hundred years.) Yet when we read through the works of Shakespeare we do not doubt or question who penned (or completed) his sonnets and plays..

a belief in a fairy tales may be a quick way to dismiss a faith based belief, especially when "we" have such solid science and history to back up a belief in facts. One of the things we have genuinely learned from recent history is not to foolish underestimate someone because they do not believe as you do..

The Japanese though if they sufficiently bloody our nose at pearl harbor the American will to fight would be lost.. Just like we underestimated Japan's ability to make war, so we were not ready when war came. In the end we were both proved wrong about our heart felt stereo types of each other...
I guess the question will be: Where will you be standing when the final bomb is dropped? Where will you be at the end of this life?



Teachers are in a unique position. In that, They are placed in a set of circumstances in which those who come to them, seek to be taught. Kinda like this forum. It is set up for those who have questions about Christianity or those non christians who struggle, can seek a Christian perspective. Where the "impoliteness" arises is when the student or the one seeking a christian perspective forgets his role and begins to teach, or treats his teachers as students. The Christians here, are not here to "learn" of the current popular world view. We are here to help those who seek to bridge that gap from said world view, to one that is more conducive to a personal relationship with God.

I completely get what you're saying. I don't mean to appear like I'm trying to "teach" anyone at these forums, it's not the place. All I'm saying though is what I believe is true. Any suggestions how I would still be able to say that without sounding like a "teacher"?

I posted this thread in the struggles part because it's a problem I have (feeling like I'm being too polite, is there room to say what I mean?), and thought it was the most appropriate.

I'd like to clear up the whole Santa thing. I used it as an analogy just to convey the guilty feelings. I'm almost certain that God isn't real (just stating my belief, not trying to assert it on you), which is how the parent feels about Santa, while the child has the opposite view. In this analogy, the parent is right and it's sad for the child, I chose that because, as I just said, I'm almost certain that I am right so that is how it feels to me. I never meant to compare the whole Christian faith (or any faith) to belief in Santa, that's taking the analogy too far, as you demonstrated.

Last night, though, I had a thought. My beliefs, when you get right down to it, should be just as offensive to you as yours are to me. So, in the end, it's all balanced out and all that matters is the way you say what you feel.

 

[b.hopeful]

My dh is an atheist and quite a nice person. He believes that his non-belief is as personal as my belief...and as much as he doesn't like people trying to convert him, he doesn't try to convert others. So ...I think it's possible.

 

[MLEN]

I too believe it is possible to share and discuss one's belief/non-belief in God in a cordial and polite manner.

It's a matter of respecting what other people hold to. There is a verse in the Bible that reminds Christians to treat others as we would want to be treated. You may have a similar saying as an atheist, I'm guessing.

But if nothing else at all, most people would agree that no matter what they believe in there is the basic shared understanding that we should at least aim to respect others by not personally attacking and by sticking to the facts of the discussion at hand.

And, BTW mcflooble I appreciate your honesty on wanting to contemplate the whole matter of how to politely share opinions with others. Far as I can see, you have been quite polite and respectful all along here

Kind Regards,

 

[drich0150]

Any suggestions how I would still be able to say that without sounding like a "teacher"?

Perhaps as you said look for a balance.

 

[Beekeeper]

What is an atheist? If being an atheist does not necessarily mean having any constraints or tendencies that stand in the way of behaving in a polite way, then of course it is conceivable that polite atheists could exist.

In my experience, most people are rude on some occasions and polite on others. Being polite all the time is about as exceptional as having blue hair. I have met a few people who said they were atheists, and were more often polite than average. I have also run across many who said they were atheists, and were less polite than average, especially on Internet message boards. But that could easily be chalked up to the context - and the sorts of reasons people who self-label as atheists usually post on Internet message boards pertaining to Christianity. For example, many of these people have been embittered by bad experiences with a church, their parents or their peers and want a confrontation. (I'm not saying this holds true generally, but it does seem to hold true quite often.)

My feelings aren't hurt by your post, but as a little feedback it is at best tactless to tell people that when you are talking to them, you 'honestly feel like an adult talking to a kid who still believes in Santa.' I'm not trying to run you down here or anything, just to let you know that you may sometimes unknowingly be treating people rudely when you think you are being polite. Even if you happen to think that the grown adults you are talking to are as gullible or credulous as children believing in Santa, or that their beliefs are 'nonsense,' I can only imagine certain circumstances where saying this would be called-for. Similarly, it rarely leaves a favorable impression to say that you feel superior and more enlightened

I doubt you say everything that pops into your mind, and I bet you'll agree that it isn't necessary. For example, some things are "inside head thoughts" because they are unnecessarily harmful or get in the way of communication.

Just the same, it is up to the people who are talking to you to also respond in a polite and appropriate way. Why should I become angry that you disagree with me on a matter of theology, especially if you not trying to mislead anybody? I think people who self-label as Christians should hold themselves to a higher standard and try not to be personally threatened by people who simply disagree. Responses to rudeness are a tougher matter - after all, Christians are only human too.

Cheers.

 

[mcflooble]

I've learned a lot from this thread. Thankyou to everyone who replied.

drich0150: it's been a great conversation
Beekeeper: excellent post

Again, thankyou to everyone.

 

[Van]

Hi Mcfooble, is it possible to be a polite atheist? Of course, especially if the atheist never attempts to deconstruct the belief system of others. Sort of like avoiding conversations of politics and religion. Christians have a biblical mandate to present their belief system (the gospel of Christ) to others by word and/or example. An Atheist would only be impelled by his or her own belief, whether that kindness and compassion requires intervention, or that they want to demonstrate the superiority of their belief system. And of course, being ungodly, they would explain the position that seems most beneficial to their purpose, no matter what it was.

 

[DannyOcean]

Of course it's possible to be a polite atheist. I do it every day. I respect others although I don't agree with them.

And to clear up a misconception from earlier in the thread, atheism is simply the lack of belief in any god or gods. It's not a specific belief itself. Bald isn't a hair color in the same way atheism isn't a religion or belief system.

If you were talking about positive or strong atheism, that would be someone who actively denies there is a god, and that qualifies as a belief system. But not all atheists are strong atheists.