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Featured Please Stop Saying "Replacement Theology"

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Mar 11, 2019.

  1. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Yes a remnant as the scriptures say:
    Romans 9:27-28 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute his sentence upon the earth with rigour and dispatch."

    Isaiah 10:20-23 In that day the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no more lean upon him that smote them, but will lean upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. 21 A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. 22 For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return. Destruction is decreed, overflowing with righteousness. 23 For the Lord, the LORD of hosts, will make a full end, as decreed, in the midst of all the earth.​
    All Israel is the remnant that shall return to God. Not the whole of Abraham's descendants through Isaac and Jacob. But you know this already because you have read the scriptures and know that not all Israel is Israel.
    Romans 9:6-7 But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but "Through Isaac shall your descendants be named."

    Genesis 21:12 But God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased because of the lad and because of your slave woman; whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your descendants be named.

    Galatians 3:15-29 To give a human example, brethren: no one annuls even a man's will, or adds to it, once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many; but, referring to one, "And to your offspring," which is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came four hundred and thirty years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance is by the law, it is no longer by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. 19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained by angels through an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one; but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not; for if a law had been given which could make alive, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the scripture consigned all things to sin, that what was promised to faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. 24 So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.​
    There is no replacement at work in Christ; Christ is descended from David and Abraham and through him every Christian is Abraham's seed as Paul argues in Galatians 3:15-29. "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."
     
  2. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    the ones that specifically state being "cut off." Most of the 613 commands did not say that.
    Not what I was asking. I was asking for chapter and verse saying what was the status (before GOD, not the culture) of a person once they get cut off.

    BTW, In Hebrew thought, man was not subdivided into body soul and spirit. Man was a unit just as God is One.
    Your statement is a caricature of my view, meaning you really do not understand it at all.

    I find this phrase interesting; "the Church that God Spared..."

    Kehilat does NOT equal "church."
     
  3. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    that is a good question. One that really cannot be answered fully.

    You have your assumptions as to what that looks like. But assumptions are all they are.
     
  4. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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  5. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    OK - here are some quotes from them:


    The antagonism of the early Christians towards the Jews was reflected in the writings of the early Church Fathers. For example, Justin Martyr (c. AD 160) in speaking to a Jew said: "The Scriptures are not yours, but ours." Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyon (c. AD 177) declared: "Jews are disinherited from the grace of God." Tertullian (AD 160-230), in his treatise, "Against the Jews," announced that God had rejected the Jews in favor of the Christians.

    In the early 4th century, Eusebius wrote that the promises of the Hebrew Scriptures were for Christians and not the Jews, and the curses were for the Jews. He argued that the Church was the continuation of the Old Testament and thus superseded Judaism. The young Church declared itself to be the true Israel, or "Israel according to the Spirit," heir to the divine promises. They found it essential to discredit the "Israel according to the flesh" to prove that God had cast away His people and transferred His love to the Christians.

    At the beginning of the 4th century, a monumental event occurred for the Church, which placed "the Church Triumphant" over "Vanquished Israel." In AD 306, Constantine became the first Christian Roman Emperor. At first, he had a rather pluralistic view and accorded Jews the same religious rights as Christians. However, in AD 321, he made Christianity the official religion of the Empire to the exclusion of all other religions. This signaled the end of the persecution of Christians, but the beginning of discrimination and persecution of the Jewish people.

    Already at the Church Council in Elvira (Spain) in AD 305, declarations were made to keep Jews and Christians apart, including ordering Christians not to share meals with Jews, not to marry Jews, not to use Jews to bless their fields, and not to observe the Jewish Sabbath.

    Imperial Rome, in AD 313, issued the Edict of Milan, which granted favor to Christianity, while outlawing synagogues. Then, in AD 315, another edict allowed the burning of Jews if they were convicted of breaking the laws. As Christianity was becoming the religion of the state, further laws were passed against the Jews:

    * The ancient privileges granted to the Jews were withdrawn.

    * Rabbinical jurisdiction was abolished or severely curtailed.

    * Proselytism to Judaism was prohibited and made punishable by death.

    * Jews were excluded from holding high office or a military career.

    These and other restrictions were confirmed over and over again by various Church Councils for the next 1,000 years.

    The Error of Replacement Theology, by Clarence H. Wagner, Jr.
     
  6. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Not one of the early church writers that your posts alludes to - but does not quote with references - says anything about replacement theology. And if you object to Christians being regarded as Abraham's seed through Christ then the objection is about what Paul wrote in his letter to the Galatians rather than to any non-canonical early church writer.
     
  7. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Really?

    "The Scriptures are not yours, but ours." = replacement theology.

    "Jews are disinherited from the grace of God." = replacement theology.

    God had rejected the Jews in favor of the Christians. = replacement theology.
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    These examples may help you:

    Exd 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

    Exd 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

    Lev 23:29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

    Lev 23:30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.

    Jdg 21:6 And the children of Israel repented them for Benjamin their brother, and said, There is one tribe cut off from Israel this day.

    In context, "cut off from Israel" means the complete extinction of the tribe.

    1Ki 14:10 Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]eth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.

    1Ki 15:29 And it came to pass, when he reigned, that he smote all the house of Jeroboam; he left not to Jeroboam any that breathed, until he had destroyed him, according unto the saying of the LORD, which he spake by his servant Ahijah the Shilonite.

    1Ki 21:21 Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]eth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel,

    2Ki 9:8 For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]eth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel:

    2Ki 9:9 And I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, and like the house of Baasha the son of Ahijah

    2Ki 10:17 And when he came to Samaria, he slew all that remained unto Ahab in Samaria, till he had destroyed him, according to the saying of the LORD, which he spake to Elijah.

    2Ki 10:30 And the LORD said unto Jehu, Because thou hast done well in executing that which is right in mine eyes, and hast done unto the house of Ahab according to all that was in mine heart, thy children of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.

    It should be clear from the above that "cut off from Israel" and "cut off from the earth" mean physical death.
    Is it your contention that an unbelieving, covenant breaking Israelite who is put to death for their transgression is Saved, or remains an Heir to the Promises?

    Where is that taught?

    Great... who do you say were the thousands slain in the wilderness then?... True Israel and Heirs to the Land God slew them to prevent them from entering? OR were they considered NOT Heirs?

    Word: ekklhsia

    Pronounce: ek-klay-see'-ah

    Strongs Number: G1577

    Orig: from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):--assembly, church. G1537

    Use: TDNT-3:501,394 Noun Feminine
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So, in your view, the Thousands of Jews God Slew in the wilderness were NOT Disinherited from His grace?
     
  10. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    No objection to gentile Christians being ADDED to Abraham's seed and grafted in so as to become part of the "commonwealth of Israel."

    What I object to is natural Israel being excluded.
     
  11. LoreneDD

    LoreneDD ~Cassia~ Supporter

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    ‘Covenantal Theology’ as a term is good term because of the fact that the covenants were made with a Loving God according to His covenantal agreements. He can give and He can take back Hosea 2:8-13 The covenants are according to the knowledge given on God’s part and the receiver ‘knowing’ or acknowledging covenantal loyalty and the accompanying demands.

    Israel didn’t ‘know’ the real source of their blessings Hosea 2:8 The land ‘owners’ seemed increasingly incapable of knowing. ‘Knowing’ consists of bowing before and trusting in, ‘knowing’ Yahweh as covenantal Lord. In much the same way as the Pharisees, the Israelis were a block to the Lord’s way because of their unknowing/unbelief. Knowing is not forgetting (Deuteronomy 8:11, Deuteronomy 32:15-18 )

    Israel’s first word in life is ‘listen’ but the OT people did not listen. (Deuteronomy 6:4, Deuteronomy 8:3)

    Hosea 8

    All of the OT references can easily be linked to the NT.

    The rhetoric of the boundary lines is that of pure grace, a radical gift with no achievement, merit or planning involved. (Deuteronomy 6:10-11)

    Purely Sola Gratia

    What was done was from the same One that gave quail, manna and water. Those gifts are still enduring, still the same ’good land’ that Christians are entitled to.

    Knowing and remembering (having listened to the One that provided) is contained in the fact that we all come from slavery, redeemed by a kinsman redeemer, and being satisfied ‘in Christ’. (Deuteronomy 8:7-10, Deuteronomy 10:11-12)

    otoh is the view that there is no land for Israel to inherit
    (rough excerpt from ‘The Land’ Walter Brueggemann)
    Israel’s newest history is that called forth from death Romans 4:17 seen from exile to land Genesis 12:1-3, Hebrews 11:12 where Israel’s hope is rooted is in the character of God. Otherwise she has “none to comfort” “none to help her” but must trust the land-giver and land-promiser precisely when there is no land.
     
  12. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    they were dead, so of course they could not enter the land.

    But where does it say anything of their eternal status? (other than the house of Korah)
     
  13. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    The boundaries of the land of Israel are set in Numbers 34. That is a fact

    Israel was given all of this land by God, as stated in Joshua 21:43-45. That is a fact.


    Let's use an earthly example for understanding:

    Let's say I inherit an acre of land from a family member to farm (promise land). I am given a map with the borders (old covenant), but there are no border markers on the land itself.

    When I arrive to the acre of land, there are several houses with families living in them (Canaanites). I proceed to kick many of the families off the acre of land and destroy their houses, so that I can farm the land. However, I don't kick all of the families out, but let them live on some parts of the acre (Jebusites, Hittites, etc...)

    I proceed to build myself a small home (Jerusalem) and farm only parts of the land, but not all of it. I don't build a fence around my entire 1 acre property, nor do I even walk to some parts of my acre property.

    ***Is all of the 1 acre property mine or only parts of it?

    How so? what evidence do you have?

     
  14. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    You are taking this farther and farther away from the OP about replacement theology by bringing up a bunch of side issues.
     
  15. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So you object to God Slaying thousands of natural Israelites in the Wilderness, thereby EXCLUDING them from the Land Promises?
     
  16. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Joshua 1.
     
  17. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    The Christian scriptures do belong to Christians. NO orthodox Jew would accept them. This has nothing to do with replacement theology.

    The above is an overstatement and hence not true. Nevertheless Jews like pagans are not among God's people unless and until they come to Christ as their saviour in repentance and faith.

    The above is also an overstatement and hence not true. Nevertheless each and every Jew who rejects Jesus Christ is like a pagan who rejects Jesus Christ neither is among God's chosen people. Both have rejected God in Christ.
     
  18. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Absolutely. Does that mean they will inherit it in any way? Probably not. They will CERTAINLY be judged at the final judgement for what they did with their inheritance.
     
  19. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    He was talking about the OT scriptures.

    But according to Romans 3.1-2, even the NT scriptures belong to the Jews.
     
  20. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Paul says that not all who are born of Israel as Israel. It is not the natural seed that receive the inheritance but the seed according to the promise. Galatians 3:15-29 explains it.
     
  21. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So they were EXCLUDED by God from the land Promises God made to Ethnic Israel, right?

    Where does scripture teach that God accepts into His eternal Heaven those who reject Him, after they have died physically in that state?
    I can only find the opposite taught.
     
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