Please Stop Saying "Replacement Theology"

parousia70

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Is your belief perhaps that Israel and the church were always the same entity? Please explain in a very brief way.

You can refer back to MY POST #54 in this thread for a brief explanation of that biblical truth if you'd like.
 
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Erik Nelson

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And it is often said right here in these forums that when they started following our Lord, they ceased to be Jews and became Christians.
think you have it exactly backwards

Revelation 2:9
Romans 2:28-29

by disbelief, even national Israelites are disqualified, "branches broken off"

According to Christianity Jesus and his Apostles and followers were the prophesied remnant of national Israel. All of the rest who rejected Jesus as Messiah. Were broken off and cast out? Removed from the Israel of faith.

Jesus and his apostles were the true Jews. The true faithful remnant of Abraham. Believing gentiles have been grafted in as adopted but fully legal sons of Abraham in a spiritual sense.

Hence Christians often compare themselves to Old Testament Israel in a spiritual sense.
 
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parousia70

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Judaism is unique in that it is both a religion and a physical people.

Or, It's Just a religion, as your next paragraph appears to support..

If an African American or an American Indian or someone of Japanese ancestry were to undergo an orthodox Jewish conversion, they become part of ethnic Israel.
No DNA link at all. But still part of ethnic Israel.

Now we might be getting somewhere....Care to explain the other side of that equation?

What does scripture say it takes for a member of Ethnic Israel, either by birth or conversion, to get cut off or excommunicated, and no longer be considered BY GOD, to be part of Ethnic Israel?
 
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parousia70

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And it is often said right here in these forums that when they started following our Lord, they ceased to be Jews and became Christians.

I realize this is often said in these forums.

But, Can you point to where scripture makes this claim?
 
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parousia70

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And still no one has answered WHY they want to know all this stuff that really does not apply to them?

Why would you want to read and learn about Noahs Flood? I doesn't apply directly to you does it?

Should we just redact Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy, etc.. from our Bibles then, since they do not directly apply to us?
 
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Dave-W

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What does scripture say it takes for a member of Ethnic Israel, either by birth or conversion, to get cut off or excommunicated, and no longer be considered part of Ethnic Israel?
Undefined in scripture.
 
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Dave-W

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Why would you want to read and learn about Noahs Flood? I don't apply directly to you does it?

Should we just redact Genesis from our Bibles then, since it does not directly apply to us?
Actually, if it is written in scripture, it DOES apply to us in some way or another. If it is NOT defined in scripture, it does not.
 
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parousia70

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Actually, if it is written in scripture, it DOES apply to us in some way or another. If it is NOT defined in scripture, it does not.

Great. How does Noahs Flood apply to you?
Are you Building an Ark?
 
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Dave-W

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parousia70

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Not at all.
You really have no idea about the detailed scriptural record of what it takes for a member of Ethnic Israel to be excommunicated or cut off from the people an be considered by God Heathen and no longer part of Ethnic Israel?

You are truly, totally unfamiliar with this biblical teaching?

I gotta say I'm shocked.. up to now, you seemed much more well versed in scripture than this indicates you may actually be.
 
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Dave-W

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I understand many commands lead to being "cut off" if they were disobeyed. Beyond that, there is NO scripture saying what exactly "cut off" means and if they are still considered Israel or not.

I do know people have made up teachings based on what they pieced together from here and there; but I tend to reject those kinds of teachings as the logic basis for most of them is Aristotelian when the bible is written from a very different logic framework.
 
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Dave-W

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yet you argue that me understanding the scriptural basis for How all Israel is saved teaches me nothing?
There are bits and pieces here and there.

I submit any attempt to put those pieces together will end up with something different than reality.

Can you tell me you could piece together the birth of Our Lord from the various prophecies, telling how they all fit together? Of course not. No one could. It is only AFTER the fact that you see how all of the pieces fall into place.
 
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parousia70

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I understand many commands lead to being "cut off" if they were disobeyed. Beyond that, there is NO scripture saying what exactly "cut off" means and if they are still considered Israel or not.

I do know people have made up teachings based on what they pieced together from here and there; but I tend to reject those kinds of teachings as the logic basis for most of them is Aristotelian when the bible is written from a very different logic framework.

Let's start with Circumcision.
Is it your contention that a Male Human can be considered part of Ethnic Israel by God if he is NOT Circumcised? Or is Circumcision REQUIRED for Male Membership in the Ethnic Nation of Israel?

Here's what scripture teaches... you may "tend to reject" it if you must.

God made it clear that all Israelites who disobeyed His covenant would be "cut off" from among the true people of God:
"He who is born in your house...must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. The uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant." (Gen 17:13-14)

Soon it became clear that other violations of the covenant also served to "cut off" individuals from among the people of God (Lev 18:29; Num 15:30-31; Ex 12:15,19; Ex 31:14; Lev 7:20-27; Lev 23:28-30). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham. This practice of exclusion from the covenant society continued down to Ezra's time (Ezra 10:8) and even to Christ's day (Jn 9:22; Jn 12:42; Mt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:1-2,5,11-13).

In reality, conformity to God's covenantal commands, above all else, determined one's status as a member of Israel. Put another way, a person's identity with Israel was derived from and maintained by obedience----for the natural-born citizen's privilege as Israel could be nullified through disobedience, and the foreigner's status as an alien of Israel could be removed through obedience.

At times the issue of obedience became paramount for the nation of Israel. Scripture records numerous apostasies by--and subsequent excommunications of--seditious sons of Abraham. Examples may be multipled: God struck down thousands of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness (Num 14:26-45; Num 21:5-9; Num 16:1-50), though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45); In Isaiah's day, apostasy became so rampant that Israel continued to exist through a small but faithful remnant (Isa 10:22-23; Isa 1:7-9; Rom 9:27-29); In Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that faithful Israel narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4). Lastly, at the close of the Old Testamental age, Israel was again reduced to a small remnant of faithful elect ones (Rom 11:5). The Jewish Pharisees and temple rulers grew wicked to the point of killing God's holy Messiah and apostles (1 Thess 2:14-16), and throngs wanted Caesar as king instead of Messiah, the son of David (Jn 19:15). Then as in times past, true Israel survived and continued on through the faithful sons, while the unfaithful apostates were "cut off" from among the people.

The severe sedition and schism that took place in Christ's generation between the faithful sons and the disobedient brothers was not without warning. As St. Peter testified to his contemporary Jewish brethren:
"For Moses said: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me: him you shall hear according to all things whatsoever he shall speak to you. And it shall be, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. And all the prophets, from Samuel and afterwards, who have spoken, have told of these days." (Acts 3:22-24)

THIS is exactly what happened in the first century.
 
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Dave-W

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Soon it became clear that other violations of the covenant also served to "cut off" individuals from among the people of God (Lev 18:29; Num 15:30-31; Ex 12:15,19; Ex 31:14; Lev 7:20-27; Lev 23:28-30).
Certain violations. Not all violations.
Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham.
Chapter and verse? Or was it cultural?
This practice of exclusion from the covenant society continued down to Ezra's time (Ezra 10:8) and even to Christ's day (Jn 9:22; Jn 12:42; Mt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:1-2,5,11-13).
Again, was it scriptural or cultural? Did our Lord specifically condone it?
 
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Dave-W

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In reality, conformity to God's covenantal commands, above all else, determined one's status as a member of Israel.
That was a pharisaic extension to the written law. They substituted legalistic adherence for true heart obedience.

While it may have determined someone's status in THEIR eyes. did it really determine the status in GOD's eyes?
 
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parousia70

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Certain violations. Not all violations.
Which ones do you say are pertinent?

Chapter and verse? Or was it cultural?

Already gave it:
"He who is born in your house...must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. The uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant." (Gen 17:13-14)

Not merely the Body, but the SOUL. And it was a COMMAND OF GOD.
Do you tend to Reject it?

Again, was it scriptural or cultural? Did our Lord specifically condone it?

Scriptural. and Yes.
God struck down thousands of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness (Num 14:26-45; Num 21:5-9; Num 16:1-50), though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45);

Your view would have that polar opposite...
Your view calls The thousands God Struck Down as TRUE Ethnic Israel and Heirs to the Land Promises, while the Church that God Spared and Led into the Promised land, BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH, are instead "some other people" besides Ethnic, National Israel and are NOT Heirs to the Land God gave them and delivered them into.

Again, Opposite of what scripture teaches.
 
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parousia70

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While it may have determined someone's status in THEIR eyes. did it really determine the status in GOD's eyes?
"For Moses said: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me: him you shall hear according to all things whatsoever he shall speak to you. And it shall be, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. And all the prophets, from Samuel and afterwards, who have spoken, have told of these days." (Acts 3:22-24)

In God's Eyes, what do you say "Shall be destroyed from among the people" means?

A temporary chastisement?
 
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