• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Please help to ignite the Great Re-Awakening in Europe

Discussion in 'Missions, Evangelism & Witnessing' started by BrotherMichael, Nov 14, 2006.

  1. Delanie

    Delanie Newbie

    38
    +19
    Christian
    Sorry for the double post, I retyped the message below!
     
  2. Delanie

    Delanie Newbie

    38
    +19
    Christian
    Great to see all the thoughts and contributions here and how widely this has spread. My group has been involved in the Netherlands for many years but I love seeing all the ministries involved in so many different countries.

    A reminder to everyone, if you feel to call to mission in Europe, don't ignore or put it off, it's a great calling and you should heed it! Remember the maxim many of us were taught, "he who hesitates is lost". I see I'm not the first person to mention this reminder here, but it's worth it to keep in mind that the character and beliefs of towns, villages and even some cities and districts across regions of Europe is now being shaped in these efforts. A friend at one of my childhood churches in Florida had an inkling of starting a mission effort and church revival in a part of southern France, but he hesitated as he was too afraid of the obstacles, unsure if he could learn the language well enough or get his kids integrated in the schools, things like that. So when he came back to the idea four years later, he'd found out that another denomination had already started a ministry and rebuilt churches in the very same little village in south France! He told me that he bitterly regretted his hesitation as the worst mistake he's ever made. Fortunately he was welcomed to help with the church revival in that little hamlet, and he and his family and some other parishioners later set up successfully in another little hamlet in southwestern France. But again, don't ignore calls to minister!

    As another reminder, which I also see has been addressed before, don't be deterred by visa issues! My group in the Netherlands ran into these problems for several years, and we're from a lot of different places-- mostly out of churches in Texas and Florida like other groups here, but also many from Canada or Australia, even a few Brazilians and South Africans. While some were able to get work or family visas or save up for a small business (which helps to get the Dutch visas), many others simply got residency first in a place like Hungary, Bulgaria or Lithuania where it's generally a lot easier. We practiced our Dutch and at least basic German, and from there we were able to move to the Netherlands! (Some of us had to renounce US or Canadian citizenship as we got settled in but it's usually not necessary, there are people who will help you here.) Remember that there's free movement in the EU now, so if you want to minister in a country like Holland, Sweden, Belgium, Norway or France, you don't necessarily have to start there. Just get your feet planted wherever you can, get a feel for the continent and stay on your feet, and you'll be able to go where you need. Never hesitate to reach out for help, my husband and I had to move and raise 5 kids in the Netherlands and get them used to feeling like Dutch themselves, it wasn't easy but we never balked at asking for help both from the locals and the other ministries, and it's everything's worked thanks to their help. So keep the faith, make sure to heed your calling and you'll succeed!
     
  3. Inhocsigno

    Inhocsigno Junior Member

    89
    +13
    Lutheran
    Greetings Delanie,

    Thanks for your fresh insights and relaying your experiences here, I will be sure to pass them on to my own flock as questions on these matters are hardly uncommon!
     
  4. BlessingsBe

    BlessingsBe Newbie

    5
    +0
    Baptist
    Such a nice sight to see all the people doing this and having success and joy doing it! The deacons at my and relative's churches have also been talking a lot about Netherlands, especially Utrecht but they also mentioned Norway churches, Sweden, Ireland and of course the bigger countries like Italy, Germany and France. There's a lot of programs already under-way to minister here and Americans and people from other countries outside Europe seem to be very welcome! Thinking about planting down new roots in one of these countries myself, what a joyous way to make a difference.
     
  5. Kellero

    Kellero New Member

    3
    +0
    Protestant
    Oh wow so wonderful to see so many people joining on this! My family plus me including the kids (and dog!) moved from Texas to Belgium last year. Talk about culture shock! At first at least, but it's been great ever since we got set up with so much support from the locals and the other Americans and Australians here. We actually up and started in Hungary some years ago getting permits, it was easier there, but then were able to transfer to Belgium once we got residence. (My husband speaks fluent French and a little Flemish and German, me? not so much but learning every day!) The churches in Belgium are BEAUTIFUL! Feels so fantastic to be a part of the efforts to renew and refurbish them, to organize sermons and prayer books. It's wonderful!

    My cousin will be moving with her family to Norway next year and working on some of the churches outside Oslo. We'll be having our little reunion on the other side of the Atlantic I guess you could say!
     
  6. Edmond89

    Edmond89 Newbie

    439
    +16
    Catholic
    Single
    US-Democrat
    yes my abilities to know more foreign Languages, more European Languages could help me a lot to preach the Gospel in Europe

    I really would like to become a Missionary for Christ in Europe and to go to Germany :)) and other European countries.
     
  7. BrendaFox

    BrendaFox New Member

    1
    +0
    Christian
    A few of us in college ministries from the US have been organizing for these missions so just wanted to encourage anyone started early! My group is France-focused but I know a few others more inclining towards Germany, Ireland, Holland, Norway or Italy or Spain, so it's never too early. Upon graduation we'll be re-locating to a region in Picardy for our ministry while also building our careers abroad and of course our language skills (French and German), and that's where we'll stay! For anyone still in high school or just entering college, don't hesitate to do this ministry and big move if it's something that catches your heart, on a practical level remember that European universities and colleges are basically free (outside of Britain where they're expensive like the US), and if you have the motivation to minister, you'll also have the motivation to learn the languages and do the other things important for ministry and starting your career overseas. Listen to your heart and your faith, we'd love to see more of y'all here!
     
  8. Delander

    Delander New Member

    2
    +1
    Christian
    In Relationship
    So nice to hear! my fiancee and I, we'll be off to join a "young expat ministry team" in eastern Sweden next year, already knee deep in those Swedish and German classes- quite the thing to be reading Paul's epistles in Swedish! It's great to know we'll have so much expat Canadian and American company already set up there.
     
  9. Orlandin

    Orlandin New Member

    1
    +0
    Charismatic
    In Relationship
    curious is anyone here planning on missions out in the Baltics? my church is interested in ministries up in Belarus and Lithuania in particular. seems a bit remote to most people i know, but there's an exciting Christian history and fervor in those areas, and with German as the common trade language its not too tough to co-ordinate ministries across the whole region. they're looking for inspiration, already a Christian revival underway especially in the medium-sized towns, sending prayers and hopes and hopefully soon, our own members to give them a helping hand!
     
  10. Colton Rhode

    Colton Rhode New Member

    4
    +0
    Christian
    Engaged
    We'll be doing our part down in Spain, I think it's one of the best places for Americans to witness and minister even tho it's not usually the first country we think of. Those of us from down in Texas (hurrah for y'all Lone Star folks here!) and the southwest all know pretty good Spanish, New York or Florida or Jersey I'd imagine the same, the Spanish in Spain is a little different but you'll catch on fast, and for some reason my fiance and I have found it easy to minister in. The "palabras" come easy from deep in the heart! We have to know some German too but it all goes smoothly. Plus it's great here because even if you're from out of the country you can sign up for the healthcare they have especially in Madrid, Cartagena and Merida, which we'll be very happy for when our first little one comes along next year! And Merida, oh is it beautiful , one of those cities a bit off the trail taht not so many people visit, but full of people curious and wanting to explore their spirituality, receptive to the Gospels and all they mean. We're happy to bring the word to them and more are always great to come here!
     
  11. Edmond89

    Edmond89 Newbie

    439
    +16
    Catholic
    Single
    US-Democrat
    Yeah it's always better to live in Europe and to emgirate in order to preach the Gospel, the Bible, the Religious Re-Awakening to Germany, Austria, France and Switzerland

    I really hope to see many of you are going to Great Britain, London and other British Cities

    I may personally do emigrate, and all of my Professors of the History Department told me: "Edwar , Please do emigrate, now the Right time indeed"

    it's Because that I have a bright future in Europe, better life conditions and more job opportunities as a History Professor.

    Best Regards,
    Edwar Makhoul
    a New Immigrants to Europe-Germany and Austria
    Since October 2016
    PhD 2016-2020
    Post-Doc 2020-2021
     
  12. Messy2

    Messy2 Active Member

    186
    +99
    Charismatic
    Single
    Holland is beginning to awake. More and more get kickstarted by people like Thorben Sondergaard and go to the streets to pray for the sick and share the gospel.
     
  13. Daldon

    Daldon New Member

    2
    +0
    Lutheran
    Married
    I suspect many of you have already received the wonderful news but I want to re-state it here anyway to help spread the invitation to those who have not heard: we are at this very moment, experiencing a once in a century miracle of spreading the Gospel and conversion of Muslims to the Christian faith in Germany and Austria, and also in Norway, Sweden and the Netherlands. I recently spoke to one of my fellow ministers originally from Alberta in Canada, who moved to Bavaria in Germany last year. He like many others has been active in converting and ministering to the formerly Muslim refugees who have been pouring into the country in the past few months, and he and other pastors have come to reckon that Europe is now experiencing a historic unprecedented level of conversion from Islam to Christianity amid these unique circumstances. In the last week alone, in our small region of Bavaria, our group has brought the Good Word to more than 5,000 ex-Muslims who have now embraced the Gospel! This has never happened before in recent history, and it is a true miracle to behold!

    The news reports many of you have heard in the US (certainly the channels my folks have been paying attention to in west Texas) have some wrong information, in fact most of the refugees to Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Norway and Sweden are coming in from southeast Europe and around Russia not from Syria (with the vast majority already Christian), and so a lot of our ministering has actually been helping to convert former Muslim Albanians, Bosnians and Macedonians as well as many Gypsies. Most of the Syrians and Iraqis pouring in are also already Christian (fleeing the barbarism of ISIS in the region), however because of the disgust at what ISIS is doing, even the Muslim refugees from those countries are rapidly leaving Islam and embracing the Gospel. The sames goes for the Iranians, Afghans and Pakistanis, who have taken to the Christian Gospel with particular eagerness! The news gets even better, since many of these brave souls are now venturing back to their Muslim homelands to win more converts among their populations. While we naturally do not force anyone to convert, the fact that so many are fleeing Muslim extremism and dogmatism to a Christian land like Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands is making them highly receptive to the Gospel, and never before have we had such a rapid acceptance of the Good News of the Gospels!

    I strongly, strongly urge any of you interested in mission work or ministering to come here to central Europe or Scandinavia as soon as you can, because this is a historic, once in a century opportunity to make an extraordinary difference. Obviously you will have to learn some German in the process (not only for Germany and Austria but for the other countries too) and it helps if you can pick up at least basic skills, but it's not necessary to know it before you come here if you haven't picked it up before. There are plenty of resources to help you learn quickly once here, the same goes for Dutch in Netherlands or Belgium and Swedish or Norwegian in Scandinavia (or also Finnish in Finland where some refugees have gone). Don't wait or you will come to regret the hesitation- since the refugee converts are not only bringing their families into the Christian faith but also ministering back in their home countries, your missionary efforts will have a powerful concrete impact on potentially dozens of countries, just get here as soon as you can, there are already hundreds of Christian groups active in conversion and ministry and they are very eager to have more helping hands!
     
  14. Paladin6

    Paladin6 New Member

    1
    +0
    Charismatic
    In Relationship
    Yes I'd like to just add my voice to the ones above, if you've ever wanted to witness a miracle and accomplish something extraordinary in witnessing and evangelizing, then come to Germany now, because it truly is a miracle playing out right before our very eyes. In 1,500 years we've struggled to bring adherents of Islam into the church, and for perhaps the first time in those 1,500 years, Muslims are converting to Christianity in droves, in this case principally among the refugees who have come to Germany and neighboring countries (Austria, Denmark, Belgium, France, Netherlands, Sweden, Finland and Norway) as well as pockets in Italy, Portugal, Spain, Greece and down in the Balkans. The shock at the evil deeds of ISIS is convincing millions to consider the church before we even begin our missions, and when they see the freedom and joy of Christian worship in Germany's churches, full of their great architecture proclaiming Glory to the Lord, they embrace their new Christian faith with equal joy.

    In some parts of Germany a new Christian church is going up about once a week, while more established churches are filled as never before. Former Muslims are changing their names to German Christian names and baptize their children the same. (This is very important and the pastors duly emphasize this, it's a way to demonstrate commitment.) Most of the Syrians and Iraqis actually are Christians already, and this is also a great help to bring the Word of the Lord to the new converts, especially for translations into Arabic, Kurdish, Turkish, Albanian, Macedonian, Persian, Pashto or the other relevant languages of the flock. Don't worry aboit mastering German or visa issues much, there are plenty of new ministries here to help you with that once you're in the country. As with most other such ministries in south Germany and Scandinavia I suppose we're mostly US Americans and Canadians here, looks to be the case overall by the other opsts here but looking for help wherever we can, wherever you're from!
     
  15. Edwar Makhoul

    Edwar Makhoul New Member

    1
    +0
    Catholic
    Single
    I really would like to say that Millions of Muslims are leaving Islam and many of them had left Islam already to Christianity and to Atheism

    I think that I may do Immigrate to Germany and to preach the Gospel there where I will be accepted in order to do a PhD in Middle Eastern Studies Department

    I can work, study and get married in Germany

    I can leave Israel to Europe via/through the Ben Gurion Airport- TLV

    as I'm a Palestinian Christian, Catholic Forever I may go abroad and live and work in Germany as a Professor, Lecturer, Writer, Researcher, Linguist and Church Missionary

    Best Wishes,
    Edwar
     
  16. TheNorwegian

    TheNorwegian Well-Known Member

    546
    +473
    Christian
    Married
    The reason why you see mostly US Americans and Canadians in the other posts is because this is an English speaking forum. There are missionaries form all over the world in Germany and the rest of Europe. Large numbers of Brazilian, Africans, other European nations, etc. But they do not usually post in English forums
     
  17. Ben Amin

    Ben Amin New Member

    3
    +1
    Baptist
    Engaged
    A good and valid point TheNorwegian, there is a certain amount of selection-bias I suppose in terms of who we think our team members based on where we get our information. In fact in our particular ministries (focused on the Nordic region and Germany/France mostly), we have had invaluable contributions from Russians, Belarussians and others from eastern Europe in addition to our fellow Americans, Canadians and Britons here. It is well to keep in mind that we have a lot of help in our efforts, even if we don't always know all the helping hands involved!
     
  18. Ben Amin

    Ben Amin New Member

    3
    +1
    Baptist
    Engaged
    I want to address a somewhat delicate but extremely important issue here for those doing ministry work especially in Germany, east France and the Nordic region. I noticed the many thoughtful posts here about those doing ministry work in these countries with a focus on the refugee population, where we have indeed witnessed tens of thousands of conversions from Islam in recent months, something of a miracle in the making.

    An uncomfortable but critical question has arisen in the midst of this. As many of you know, the refugee process in the EU (which has been designed for manageable numbers of Syrians, Iraqis and Balkans nationals fleeing clear persecution-- especially Christians and those leaving Islam) has been unfortunately abused by thousands of economic migrants who have poured into Europe, pretending to be refugees and taking places and resources clearly meant for the refugees. All of us have run into them, and they one distinguishing feature above all-- they are Muslim (mostly men) and refuse to convert away from Islam, having come to Europe chiefly in search of benefits and welfare. All such Muslim economic migrants abusing the refugee process are subject to deportation, and the countries in which we are ministering have often asked our direct help in reporting such individuals. The question for us, then, is do we report them?

    For our group and others we have worked with, the answer is: absolutely yes, we do report such abusers for deportation and without hesitation, in fact it would be a dereliction of duty on our parts not to report them. I realize at first glance that this policy sounds quite tough, and it's not an easy topic (mission work isn't supposed to be easy or comfortable), but I will briefly explain why our group and all others with which we have collaborated have adopted the same stance, which in practice means that we report any Muslim migrant (who is not interested in fleeing Islam) for immediate deportation out of Germany, France, the Nordic region, or other European countries:

    As I explained, the refugee process in Europe in designed explicitly and exclusively for a limited number of refugees and asylees fleeing genuine persecution in their home countries for their beliefs, not due to economic circumstances-- economic migrants must apply through the standard legal channels. If they are economic migrants and not refugees, then they are abusing the process and taking up precious and scarce resources designed for refugees only, while also pushing public opinion in Europe ever more harshly against taking more migrants and closing off options for refugees (a situation of "baby being thrown out with bath-water" which is sadly understandable given circumstances). And let me make this clear, a Muslim from Syria, Iraq or any other country who comes into Europe claiming to be a refugee, and who refuses to give up Islam (that is, they are not fleeing out of for ex. persecution due to interest in leaving Islam)-- that person by definition cannot be a refugee. And they must be reported as economic migrants abusing the process. If any of our members fail to report such abusers of the process, then they are complicit in the abuse, and worsening the problem-- for the host countries, for the real refugees, even for the misguided economic migrants.

    The reason for this is simple. Remember that by international laws, refugees must be coming from a country in crisis or where there is severe and imminent persecution for their beliefs (as Christians often face in Muslim countries), and they must settle in the first safe countries to which they arrive after leaving their home countries. Muslim north African countries, most Muslim Gulf countries, and any Muslim communities in the Balkans are not countries in crisis, and the only way a person can be a refugee from these countries is if they are Christian or considering leaving Islam (which often does carry punishments). If they come as Muslims, intending to stay Muslims, then they are not refugees, and they are abusing the process and must be deported. (Eritrea is NOT a refugee source and migrants from there are economic migrants-- they are facing difficulties but no more than dozens of other countries, the refugee designation is meant for acute crises and persecution due specifically to belief.)

    In the case of Syria and Iraq and Afghanistan to lesser extent, there are many Muslim refugees as well as Christian and Yazidi refugees, but the Muslim refugees must settle in neighboring safe countries such as Jordan, Turkey, Lebanon and a number of other safe options. The moment they attempt to cross further into Europe, they are no longer refugees-- they are economic migrants looking for EU handouts and abusing the refugee process. The exception to this, of course, is Christians and Yazidis from Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan who are often unsafe in any Muslim country, and therefore do have the right as refugees to go further into Europe. The only other legitimate class is Muslims who are questioning Islam and looking to convert. There are hundreds of thousands in this class, of course-- they are the ones receptive to our message. However, if they are Muslim and refuse to convert away from Islam, then they are by definition economic migrants, not refugees, even if they have come from Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan, since they have failed to settle in neighboring Muslim safe countries as they are expected to based on international refugee law.

    We have not hesitated to make this clear to the migrants that we speak to-- the refugee process is fragile and rapidly losing public support in Europe, and thus it must be preserved for actual Christians or those considering Christianity, who are indeed facing persecution in their home countries. Just last month I myself had to report a Muslim Kosovar who refused to consider conversion and was clearly an economic migrant, along with more than a dozen Muslim Afghans, Syrians, Iraqis and north Africans who likewise refused to leave Islam-- all that I and others in my group have reported have since been deported.

    I want to make this clear, we are not doing this out of hate or to be mean, we are doing this because it is our solemn duty to protect the rapidly unraveling refugee process and make sure Christians in the Middle East continue to have access to it. Germany and Sweden in particular have thus far been quite generous to the refugees, but since it has become clear that far too many "refugees" are not refugees but economic migrants, public opinion has turned sharply against their governments and there is enormous pressure to shut the doors. (It does not take a political analyst to realize that Angela Merkel's days in public office are numbered-- her policies have been terribly managed in part because she failed to make this distinction at the out-set of the migrant crisis-- and soon Germany and the rest of Europe will be shutting their doors.) Ironically we have been contacted by several of the people that we deported (we reached out to them in attempts to get them to consider accepting the Gospel), and somewhat to our surprise, they thanked us. They realized they were coming to Europe for the wrong reasons, separated from their families and homes, and our firm actions helped to keep them from making a mistake. One, in fact, reported that his brother has since left Islam and accepted the Gospel, adopting a rich and wonderful French name (as he has plans to move to France, others doing same for Germany or Nordic region)-- both first and last name, which is a clear sign of devotion-- and raising his children in the Christian faith.

    Thus if any of our members fails to speak up and report a Muslim economic migrant abusing the refugee process, then he or she is complicit in damaging the process itself, and indirectly doing harm to potentially millions of Christians and Muslims leaving Islam who desperately need it. Once again, if you encounter anyone claiming to be a refugee or asylee who is Muslim, and refuses to leave Islam, then that person cannot be a refugee at all within European borders, for reasons laid out above. Do not at any point fear that you are acting harshly, in fact by reporting abusers of the refugee process, you are acting in a humanitarian fashion and helping to preserve the sanctity of this process.
     
  19. brentlake

    brentlake New Member

    6
    +1
    United Ch. of Christ
    Married
    Hello Ben, I just wanted to add a note of support for what you have written here, as my and many companion organizations have come to similar conclusions for similar reasons. We have been actively engaged in converting and bringing into the Church many thousands of former Muslims, particularly from the Maghreb (Morocco, Algeria, Egypt) in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece and France. However recently we have gone further into northern Europe, mostly into the Netherlands, Austria, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Germany, Sweden, Norway and Belgium, and thus have come into contact with a number of the more recent migrants and refugees. We have had a great groundswell of interest in joining the Church from former Muslims, with a great many coming to us without having to prod them.

    However we have run into many instances of Muslims who have come to Europe, claiming asylum or persecution, but then insulting us and demanding to hold onto their Muslim affiliations. And yes, we have had no vacillation in arranging for their deportations, with ours and some related groups bringing about tens of thousands of expulsions of Muslims back to their home countries. To be clear, no this has not come easy for us, but as you have said, it is an uneasy but absolutely essential duty given the reality of the migrant situation on the ground, and the real persecution (with genuine threats of death) that Christians and Christian converts are facing from Muslim terror attackers in the Middle East. Those who want to stay Muslim, if fleeing places like Iraq, Syria or Afghanistan, have numerous rich, thinly populated Muslim countries that they can go to, like Saudi Arabia for one or Bahrain or the UAE, or Turkey and Jordan. Contrary to some news claims these countries are taking in refugees who are Muslim, though of course sometimes reluctantly and with the normal restrictions that many countries have on work permits.

    But Europe is reserved for the Middle Eastern Christians explicitly fleeing persecution from IS and other Muslim radicals, for the obvious reason that such refugees do not have the option of fleeing to other Muslim countries, as they would be persecuted and attacked there the same. And since even then Europe can only take in a fraction of those Christian refugees due to basic limitations on how many they can house and support, there is an absolute need to prevent abuses of the refugee system by Muslims, who pose as refugees but are in reality just economic migrants. As you have said, if a Muslim migrant crosses through so many safe Muslim countries to come to Europe, then that person is not in any way a refugee or someone seeking help, that person is an economic migrant and has no place in a Europe that has generously reached out to help persecuted Christians, but simply has practical limitations on how many it can take in and help.

    The good news for us at least is that to an extent that may seem surprising, the authorities in most of Europe agree with us and have worked with us to deport the Muslim migrants and even second or third generation migrants if they choose to stay rooted in Islam, while filtering the applications so that the Christians can remain and are given additional help. One thing you will find in Germany for example is that even though Germany's leader Angela Merkel herself is quite deluded on this issue, as are Joachim Gauck, Horst Seehofer and other politicians who have been remiss in screening the migrants, nevertheless the German officials on the ground who make decisions on asylum and refugees have not been so deluded, and they work aggressively to screen out Muslims while welcoming Christians and Christian converts. In fact we have managed to assist these officials in many German states, as well as in much of northern Europe, France, the Mediterranean and Hungary, to deport the Muslims (all economic migrants) while confirming the Christians who face persecution. While we do not interrogate our converts of course, we have not needed to, as almost all are quite sincere. Just as a great many have written here, they participate actively in ministries, volunteer, study the Scriptures, attend Church regularly, change their names (first and last names) to Christian names as well as for their children, donate and contribute, in other words they are quite fervent in their new faith.

    And the officials on the ground agree with us, those migrants who come and join the Church clearly face persecution and are allowed to stay, those who remain with Islam are identified as economic migrants and summarily deported. We should have no second thoughts about actively opposing and rejecting political correctness, after all PC is itself an ideology foisted upon countries by cultural Marxists, who have long actively opposed the Church and the Christian faith, and we owe no fealty to this ideology. As I said before, the only country where we have run into stiff official resistance is Britain, which it looks as if others have too. We have had several members even arrested for doing basic ministry work in England, I don't know why but the UK government itself seems to have embraced PC so much that they actively oppose Christianity and even support Islam and Sharia law against groups or individuals taking part in even modest Christian ministry activities. Thus unfortunately we have had to pull out of the UK, but happily the rest of Europe has largely accepted us at least tacitly, and often with open arms. Even if the highly placed leaders may be deluded, the lower level officials in the provinces, the ones who actually make refugee and deportation decisions, understand our argument and agree with us. Sometimes with our help, they have been quite active in rapidly deporting steadfast Muslims, as it is clear that such economic migrants have come to simply abuse the generous social welfare programs as a great many of you have said. We cannot allow such activities to diminish Europe's strained resources to help persecuted Christian refugees from the Middle East. And we do not balk at actively assisting in this system to screen out the Christians in danger from the economic migrants simply looking for some unearned social welfare at the expense of the hard-working European taxpayers. The many persecuted Christians of the Middle East depend on us maintaining our determination on this matter and not backing down in our resolve.
     
  20. Inhocsigno

    Inhocsigno Junior Member

    89
    +13
    Lutheran
    Greetings Ben Amin,
    Thank you for your well considered response here. I wish also to emphasize that your thoughts and actions on this difficult matter are entirely just and justified for the reasons you have elicited. The refugee program in Europe is explicitly for Christians and other non-Muslims fleeing the mass murderous attacks of ISIS and similar groups in the Middle East. It is absolutely not for Muslims doing welfare shopping, nor is it for Eritreans or others trying to get better welfare in a country far away from their own (being in a country with an unpleasant government is not a justifiable reason, most of the countries in the world have unpleasant governments but the developed world can't give refuge to half the world's population)-- that is an abuse of the system and such abuses have caused an understandable reaction among the European people which has crippled the refugee process in entirely, including for the Christians and genuine converts to the faith who truly do need it. While there may be some Muslims fleeing ISIS, if they are true refugees then they need to remain in the first Muslim country they come to, or in one of the wealthy Muslim oil rich countries. Or even elsewhere in their home countries, most of Syria and Iraq are actually peaceable despite media excesses, and if Muslims are taking refuge then they can go there. The only reason to come all the way to Europe and cross through safe countries is if someone is a Christian, Yazidi or other non-Muslim minority in the Middle East or facing harassment for converting, since they may also face persecution in neighboring Muslim countries (and this should be demonstrable). By the very essence of the process, if a determined Muslim crosses through a safe country to get to Europe, then he or she is an economic migrant who has broken multiple laws, and the host countries have every right to imprison such people, fine them and expel them.

    While Ben's assertion on this issue might seem hostile at first glance, he is simply demonstrating the "tough love" that Christians in ministry positions must exhibit under these difficult circumstances to make sure the refugee and asylum process remain at least partly open for the fleeing Middle Eastern Christians and other non-Muslims who truly do require it. There have been far too many Muslims and seeking to abuse the process for welfare benefits, and the ministers in Europe (who are often at the front lines of tending to true refugees) have become rightly angered at the Muslims, criminals and dishonest folk who are seeking to abuse it. This cannot be tolerated, and a firm response is necessary to preserve it's integrity. And for this matter I have spoken with missionaries in Europe who have delivered a far tougher message than Ben's. One minister and his group who shuttle between Belgium, Sweden and Germany explicitly ask those who claim refugee or asylum status about their Christian denomination or the church they would like to attend. If they retort that they are Muslim, he welcomes them into the church, hands them a Bible and explains what conversion entails, and how they should go about it. If they retort further that they are Muslim and have no interest in converting, then he asks them explicitly when they are planning on leaving Europeand what country they are planning to return to, and escorts them to the nearest visa office, airport or train station to leave. If they still retort that they are Muslim yet applying for refugee status, he tells them pointedly that they have broken multiple laws and have made a false representation of their status, that they will be arrested, jailed, and fined and then they and their family are deported and barred from ever coming to the country again. And he follows through, hounding the abusers until they are expelled, making sure that those who convert are truly sincere about it, and teaching the abusers a lesson about abusing this lifesaving process. This is tough love, and while it may seem a bit harsh on the surface (I personally try to offer them more opportunities to reconsider accepting the Gospel), I understand fully the actions of such ministers and why they are acting with such vigor. They have grown tired of the abuses and are no longer willing to allow them to go unpunished. The basic message is sound, as is the goal in preserving the integrity of the process.
     
Loading...