Please explain to me how this is moral.

[selfinflikted]

I think its the other way around. It is the many people of this world who are feeling like there is nothing and questioning if this life has any real value.

I'll stop you here. As an atheist, I believe that this life is it. So, therein lies the value. Better make the best of it.

 

[selfinflikted]

I'm not even necessarily talking about gods or religion. Surely you, like everyone else, have many beliefs and views on things that aren't related to gods or religion, right? Things like politics, economics, science, philosophy, morality, etc.?

Are you blind to the idea that any one of those views could be completely wrong, "logically, reasonably, and intellectually" - but you only believe it because you have been conditioned to do so and never questioned it? Or have only been exposed to one side of the issue without really investigating the other side? i.e. the same thing atheists accuse theists of?

Many atheists think that as soon as they renounce religion, they have got the world all figured out, and they're automatically more intelligent and rational people because of it, and not susceptible to "delusions" like those silly theists. Yet they are still blind to the folly of any views they might have, that even other atheists might consider just as bad or worse than religion.

These beliefs you hold might even be actively harmful, just like atheists accuse religion of being. Yet you refuse to consider that possibility, just like you accuse theists of doing.

Of course. But I was framing my post in the context of religion, because that's what we're discussing. But yes, I understand that my beliefs on other issues could be wrong. I don't believe they are, though, otherwise I wouldn't hold those beliefs. I know I don't know everything (in fact, the older I get the more I feel I don't know). No one is perfect, and everyone is subject to being wrong. I could be wrong about god. But I highly doubt it.

 

[stevevw]

I'll stop you here. As an atheist, I believe that this life is it. So, therein lies the value. Better make the best of it.

So what about the billions that are not in the position to make the most of it. Is that just to bad for them. With that sort of attitude it more or less promotes look after yourself first and ensure that your own life is comfortable and well looked after first because there is only one life with one opportunity. This is the very problem and reason why we have so many people suffering and living a horrible existence. I'm all right Jack so keep your hands off my stack as Pink Floyd once said. Despite you saying that and many non believers knowing that they still dont make the most of it and just exist in a mundane life plodding along without much happening. In fact there is an ever increasing rate of depression and suicide. So you would think that they would realize that they need to snap out of it and get on with making the most of it and feel desperate to take advantage. Why not go and take life from others to make sure yours is better if you can get away with it. Afterall when you've gone there will be no consequences and nobodies going to worry about it.

 

[Strathos]

Of course. But I was framing my post in the context of religion, because that's what we're discussing. But yes, I understand that my beliefs on other issues could be wrong. I don't believe they are, though, otherwise I wouldn't hold those beliefs. I know I don't know everything (in fact, the older I get the more I feel I don't know). No one is perfect, and everyone is subject to being wrong. I could be wrong about god. But I highly doubt it.

So then why do you insist on trying to criticize Christian beliefs from a position of supposed superiority, if you admit others could view you as just as foolish as you believe Christians to be, and be right about it?

 

[selfinflikted]

So what about the billions that are not in the position to make the most of it. Is that just to bad for them. With that sort of attitude it more or less promotes look after yourself first and ensure that your own life is comfortable and well looked after first because there is only one life with one opportunity. This is the very problem and reason why we have so many people suffering and living a horrible existence. I'm all right Jack so keep your hands off my stack as Pink Floyd once said. Despite you saying that and many non believers knowing that they still dont make the most of it and just exist in a mundane life plodding along without much happening. In fact there is an ever increasing rate of depression and suicide. So you would think that they would realize that they need to snap out of it and get on with making the most of it and feel desperate to take advantage. Why not go and take life from others to make sure yours is better if you can get away with it. Afterall when you've gone there will be no consequences and nobodies going to worry about it.

Um, no. You read into my post what you wanted to read. "Better make the most of it" doesn't apply only to me but also to helping others.

Also, I'm not out raping and pillaging because I fear punishment in the afterlife. I'm not doing it because it's the wrong thing to do, and I don't want anyone raping and pillaging me!

 

[selfinflikted]

So then why do you insist on trying to criticize Christian beliefs from a position of supposed superiority, if you admit others could view you as just as foolish as you believe Christians to be, and be right about it?

Well, I don't know about the superiority part; that's for the Christians. As I have said, I'm pretty certain god doesn't exist. There's no evidence for it. I don't think I'm wrong about it. So that's the side I argue. If you want to see me as foolish, fine by me.

 

[Strathos]

I didn't necessarily say you were foolish. I said that from the perspective of others (even other atheists) you could be viewed as just as foolish as those you are arguing against, or even more so.

 

[stevevw]

Um, no. You read into my post what you wanted to read. "Better make the most of it" doesn't apply only to me but also to helping others.

Also, I'm not out raping and pillaging because I fear punishment in the afterlife. I'm not doing it because it's the wrong thing to do, and I don't want anyone raping and pillaging me!

Yet this world who think that this is the only one life we have are doing just that whether they admit it or not. That is the nature of the beast. Countries in the 1st world like the US and Australia are using 4 to 5 earths worth of resources at the expense of the poor countries that may use 1/2 an earths worth. They are indulging themselves and know it but dont really care. All they are concerned about is continuing to have their comfortable modern lifestyles while they eat to the point of obesity and heart attacks. At the same time millions cant even get a bit to eat and die with hunger pains. Thats the reality and not the humanistic good intentions that many like to promote to show how much they care while turning their backs on those who are suffering. If we really care we would be giving up most of what we have and helping the poor or at least cutting down our level of consumption dramatically. But thats not going to happen is it.

 

[biggles53]

So you are saving us poor Christians from this horrible God.

I play my own small part, yes...

Its a pity you didn't spend as much time actually saving people from real life situations out there in this world. We have thousands who are having horrible lives in one way or another and need help. They need people to stand up for them and actually save them in a real way. Instead of talking the talk we should be walking the walk and helping these people.

We all do what we can.....I'm a teacher, have been for nearly 40 years, so I have a very real interest in helping others through education.....and I've been fortunate enough to see the difference that can make to young people's lives...............so save the preaching for someone else......

Have you ever considered that there are many people who are helped by God and have better lives as a result. You always look at the negative and never see any positive. Yet it is acknowledge that religion has many benefits.

Those are two completely different questions....

No....I have NEVER seen someone "helped by God", simply because no-one has ever provided evidence that such a thing exists..

Yes....the evidence suggests that being part of a religion has some benefits, particularly the social advantages of 'belonging' to a like-minded group.......a bit like joining a football club......or a gang......

 

[biggles53]

"Saved" from what, exactly?

Don't say "being irrational/delusional", because A. That is only your view, and B. Many things that you believe in would be considered to be irrational and delusional by others, even your fellow atheists

Ok, I won't say it......but thanks for bringing it up yourself......

 

[biggles53]

Talk about quoting a scripture out of context. There are far more people that havnt grown up in this world without religion. If you talk about using crutches to live there are many people on some sort of drug be it alcohol, prescribed medication or illegal who use them as a way to cope with this life. The reality is this world will not give people the answers and there will always be many who suffer. thats because its based on self and so long as they are OK the rest doesn't really matter. There will be many without food and money. There will be many who are disadvantaged and cant keep up. This world promotes a me generation and unreal expectation that people cant live up to.

It is not religion at fault with those wrongs it is humans. It is hate being disguised as religion. But that same hate is seen in political powers like dictatorships or the ethnic cleaning that is motivated by occupation on land. The true cause is mans hatred towards others. If it wasn't for the many people who happen to believe in God and that Jesus set the example to help others coming to the rescue then we would be in a much worse off state. Organizations like the Salvation Army and St Vincent de pauls are there rain hail or shine helping the needy and have done for over a hundred years.

Its funny because there have been many people saved from death and harm from believing that there is more to this cold and hateful world. There are many people who are depressed and taking their own lives in today's societies because all they see is this world and it has nothing to offer them. They have no hope and only see a number of years of the same pain and despair they have faced in their lives. The reality is that this world has little to offer that truly makes a person be at peace and have hope. This world is deteriorating and so is everyone in it. This world is just a material reality that will break and let people down over and over. Thank God that there is something other than this reality because there are billions who have a horrible existence in this one.

You are so wrong here....

As I've tried to point out to you before, our world is one that is becoming LESS hostile and LESS threatening as time has passed. You are currently living, Steve, in the most peaceful period of human history...... Despite the conflicts we see at this time, they are less frequent, they involve smaller percentages of the world's population, they involve fewer casualties than in the past. Our homicide rates vary from location to location, but the world has witnessed a steady DECLINE over the centuries.

As for the standard of living, tell me Steve, would you prefer to live now, in the religion-dominated medieval period, or at the time of Jesus...?

 

[Strathos]

You are so wrong here....

As I've tried to point out to you before, our world is one that is becoming LESS hostile and LESS threatening as time has passed. You are currently living, Steve, in the most peaceful period of human history...... Despite the conflicts we see at this time, they are less frequent, they involve smaller percentages of the world's population, they involve fewer casualties than in the past. Our homicide rates vary from location to location, but the world has witnessed a steady DECLINE over the centuries.

As for the standard of living, tell me Steve, would you prefer to live now, in the religion-dominated medieval period, or at the time of Jesus...?

I would think that, if only due to sheer population size, more people are dying violently these days than at many times in the past, such as the Pax Romana (a ~200 year period spanning from the first to second centuries when there was virtually no war anywhere in the world, a phenomenon unprecedented in human history).

Interestingly enough, it also began just a few decades before Christ was born, although you'll probably call that a coincidence.

 

[Strathos]

Ok, I won't say it......but thanks for bringing it up yourself......

...Alright, you asked for it.

I notice that your political party icon says you are a member of the Australian Green party.

Doing a bit of research on them, I found out that they oppose nuclear power.

Considering that nuclear energy is our best bet for a sustainable power source in the near future when confronted with the crises of peak oil, global climate change, and environmental pollution, one might say that your party's opposition to nuclear power is an irrational and delusional belief, fueled by ideology and fearmongering (for example, there have only been 3 significant nuclear plant disasters in history, only 2 of which causing any real harm to anyone. Both of them could have easily been prevented with better reactor design, adherence to safety regulations, and regular maintenance). The amount of health risks and environmental damage caused by nuclear energy is absolutely, utterly insignificant compared to the damage that the burning of fossil fuels has done to our planet. Studies show that for every person who could said to have died as a result of nuclear power, 4000 have died from coal power (and that is not even counting coal pollution and its impact on climate change!). Sure, you could complain about how hard it is to dispose of nuclear waste, but there's a solution for that - breeder reactors. These designs can actually use nuclear waste itself as fuel, reducing it to non-harmful products. However, the development and construction of these reactors has been curtailed, in part due to the effort of misguided environmental groups and political parties like the one you belong to. The result is, ironically, preventing an easy method for disposal of nuclear waste, leading to a greater hazard than if they hadn't opposed them. The media and environmental groups' panic about the safety of nuclear reactors is, for the most part, completely unfounded, and counterproductive. One could say that by opposing nuclear power, you are promoting a dangerous belief system which leads to burning more fossil fuels and destroying the very environment you are trying to protect.

Of course, it's your right to oppose nuclear power if you want to, but it's also my right to continuously browbeat you for what a wicked, evil, regressive, paranoid, hysteric, foolish, brainwashed, irrational and delusional person you are for doing so, just like what you're doing to Christians. Don't like it? Maybe you should have thought of that before harassing Christians.

 

[Lollerskates]

...Alright, you asked for it.

I notice that your political party icon says you are a member of the Australian Green party.

Doing a bit of research on them, I found out that they oppose nuclear power.

Considering that nuclear energy is our best bet for a sustainable power source in the near future when confronted with the crises of peak oil, global climate change, and environmental pollution, one might say that your party's opposition to nuclear power is an irrational and delusional belief, fueled by ideology and fearmongering (for example, there have only been 3 significant nuclear plant disasters in history, only 2 of which causing any real harm to anyone. Both of them could have easily been prevented with better reactor design, adherence to safety regulations, and regular maintenance). The amount of health risks and environmental damage caused by nuclear energy is absolutely, utterly insignificant compared to the damage that the burning of fossil fuels has done to our planet. Studies show that for every person who could said to have died as a result of nuclear power, 4000 have died from coal power (and that is not even counting coal pollution and its impact on climate change!). Sure, you could complain about how hard it is to dispose of nuclear waste, but there's a solution for that - breeder reactors. These designs can actually use nuclear waste itself as fuel, reducing it to non-harmful products. However, the development and construction of these reactors has been curtailed, in part due to the effort of misguided environmental groups and political parties like the one you belong to. The result is, ironically, preventing an easy method for disposal of nuclear waste, leading to a greater hazard than if they hadn't opposed them. The media and environmental groups' panic about the safety of nuclear reactors is, for the most part, completely unfounded, and counterproductive. One could say that by opposing nuclear power, you are promoting a dangerous belief system which leads to burning more fossil fuels and destroying the very environment you are trying to protect.

Of course, it's your right to oppose nuclear power if you want to, but it's also my right to continuously browbeat you for what a wicked, evil, regressive, paranoid, hysteric, foolish, brainwashed, irrational and delusional person you are for doing so, just like what you're doing to Christians. Don't like it? Maybe you should have thought of that before harassing Christians.

!

 

[biggles53]

I would think that, if only due to sheer population size, more people are dying violently these days than at many times in the past, such as the Pax Romana (a ~200 year period spanning from the first to second centuries when there was virtually no war anywhere in the world, a phenomenon unprecedented in human history).

Interestingly enough, it also began just a few decades before Christ was born, although you'll probably call that a coincidence.

Two errors.....the rates of homicide, war, violent crime are all decreasing and have been for centuries....this is not opinion, it's easily researched....I would recommend Pinker's Better Angels of our Nature as a good starter...

There is no 'beginning' as such......ever since man has chosen to live in communities and as these communities have become more complex, these trends have been in evidence...... You really don't want to mention anything religious in that context....it's definitely NOT in your interests....

 

[biggles53]

...Alright, you asked for it.

I notice that your political party icon says you are a member of the Australian Green party.

Doing a bit of research on them, I found out that they oppose nuclear power.

Considering that nuclear energy is our best bet for a sustainable power source in the near future when confronted with the crises of peak oil, global climate change, and environmental pollution, one might say that your party's opposition to nuclear power is an irrational and delusional belief, fueled by ideology and fearmongering (for example, there have only been 3 significant nuclear plant disasters in history, only 2 of which causing any real harm to anyone. Both of them could have easily been prevented with better reactor design, adherence to safety regulations, and regular maintenance). The amount of health risks and environmental damage caused by nuclear energy is absolutely, utterly insignificant compared to the damage that the burning of fossil fuels has done to our planet. Studies show that for every person who could said to have died as a result of nuclear power, 4000 have died from coal power (and that is not even counting coal pollution and its impact on climate change!). Sure, you could complain about how hard it is to dispose of nuclear waste, but there's a solution for that - breeder reactors. These designs can actually use nuclear waste itself as fuel, reducing it to non-harmful products. However, the development and construction of these reactors has been curtailed, in part due to the effort of misguided environmental groups and political parties like the one you belong to. The result is, ironically, preventing an easy method for disposal of nuclear waste, leading to a greater hazard than if they hadn't opposed them. The media and environmental groups' panic about the safety of nuclear reactors is, for the most part, completely unfounded, and counterproductive. One could say that by opposing nuclear power, you are promoting a dangerous belief system which leads to burning more fossil fuels and destroying the very environment you are trying to protect.

Of course, it's your right to oppose nuclear power if you want to, but it's also my right to continuously browbeat you for what a wicked, evil, regressive, paranoid, hysteric, foolish, brainwashed, irrational and delusional person you are for doing so, just like what you're doing to Christians. Don't like it? Maybe you should have thought of that before harassing Christians.

First a minor correction....I'm not a "member"....I simply vote for them on most occasions because they most closely align with my own politics....

Now, you've happened on a very interesting point, because it is actually the Greens' position on nuclear power that we are at odds. My jury is still very much out on that one. Whilst I can see the value of nuclear as a form of 'bridging' supply until we develop renewables to a much greater degree, I'm also aware of how humans often use 'bridges'.....we tend to keep using them till they fall down......so, as I say, I'm still forming an opinion on that one...

And there's where your attempt at analogy fails....I'm not beholden to adopt all of a political party's manifesto in order to support them..... I can branch away from their 'dogma' wherever it doesn't suit my own viewpoint, while still being recognised as in their camp....

Can I be a Christian and not believe in a god..? Can I be a Christian and hold that Jesus was just a man...or never existed...? Can I be a Christian and deny an afterlife....or, accept an afterlife but not accept 'salvation'...? Can I ignore the Bible as THE source for Christian belief...? Can I just cherry pick the bits that I like and leave the rest....?

Oh....and then there's that annoying EVIDENCE thingy.....whichever way I ultimately decide to support regarding nuclear power, the simple position is that nuclear power EXISTS.....nuclear power accidents EXIST.....nuclear scientists EXIST.....we have evidence for all of these, we have evidence for the manner in which nuclear decay works...... So, my decisions will be based on what....?

 

[stevevw]

You are so wrong here....

As I've tried to point out to you before, our world is one that is becoming LESS hostile and LESS threatening as time has passed. You are currently living, Steve, in the most peaceful period of human history...... Despite the conflicts we see at this time, they are less frequent, they involve smaller percentages of the world's population, they involve fewer casualties than in the past. Our homicide rates vary from location to location, but the world has witnessed a steady DECLINE over the centuries.

As for the standard of living, tell me Steve, would you prefer to live now, in the religion-dominated medieval period, or at the time of Jesus...?

In some ways it is as we havnt had a major world war for many years. But we have had and are having many smaller conflicts. Then if you count all the growing threats from terrorism we are living in some scary and unpredictable times. The trouble is there are many crazy people out there who are getting access to some dangerous weapons. As the intelligence is indicating its only a matter or time before another big surprise attack by terrorist is going to happen like 911. We know what that triggered and its becoming like a tinder box where something is going to set off a major conflict. There are a lot of conflicts that are not really counted as war like dictatorships and oppressions that are killing many at the moment so its a bit deceptive as to how bad things are. But certainly war is on the mind of many and most feel we are not living in peaceful times throughout the world. Sometimes this can be the calm before the storm and many are saying we are getting closer and closer to a major conflict that is brewing.

But its hard to compare like with like when it comes to this world being a better and safer place. for example when I was young it was safer to leave your door unlocked or for kids to play out on the streets. Now you wouldn't dare be so comfortable in doing that. Many more kids are abducted and attacked or at least people are feeling that. So in their minds they are more worried. Why is that. Plus there are other different modern problems like rage, drugs, mental illness, phobias, tech overload, immunity breakdowns and 101 other real or imagined problems that are affecting people and making them physically or mentally ill. There is also the threat of a major pandemic happening as we are seeing with HIV or possible super bugs happening. This is why many people are going crazy or just feeling so down and lost. So if you take all this into consideration is the world really better off at the moment.

The main thing that we are not considering is the state of our planet and the pending disasters that will come as a result of global warming. Then there is the over population and the running out of resources. How do we feed everyone and what happens if a major disaster wipes out a lot of our food stocks. we are having more severe and closer economic crisis's as seen by the recent GFC where many countries faced bankruptcy and people are losing everything. The US recently averted a crisis point with their debt by raising the debt level and so did many other countries. But how long before it comes back to haunt us even worse than ever before. This in turn is causing many to be depressed and we are seeing levels of people committing suicide like it is war time anyway. Except this is self inflicted.

Add to this the pending peak oil crisis and other things like rising sea levels and there is a lot of trouble in the pipeline that is heading our way. In some ways the so called peace time we have had is causing a lot of other troubles that will come back and bit us. We tend to live in denial and think everything is good but dont want to acknowledge that sooner or later and sooner being sooner than we think the chickens are going to come home to roost. So the more we kid ourselves that everything is OK the more we continue to do the same things that will end up destroying most of what we consider a good life. So in many ways we maybe on the brink of major conflicts and disasters and this maybe a false sense of security we are feeling at the moment.

 

[biggles53]

Yep........Christian Nihilists.....!

Watch out for that falling sky Steve.....!

Look.....don't believe a word I say.......go out and research it yourself.....even a Google search should do it....

But, as is the case with so many religious people, if the evidence contravenes what your religion predicts......well, you won't listen to it, will you....?

 

[stevevw]

Yep........Christian Nihilists.....!

Watch out for that falling sky Steve.....!

Look.....don't believe a word I say.......go out and research it yourself.....even a Google search should do it....

But, as is the case with so many religious people, if the evidence contravenes what your religion predicts......well, you won't listen to it, will you....?

What i have said is not just said by religious people it is said by many different people be it economists, environmentalists, scientists or anyone with some degree of intelligence. The warning signs are there and if you want to pretend they aren't then so be it. But dont say you didn't know or realize what is happening.

By the way I have researched it have you. But thats OK keep your head in the sand and everything will be alright. You hope.

An interdisciplinary group of 22 scientists, combining paleontological evidence with ecological modeling, has concluded that the earth appears headed toward catastrophic and irreversible environmental changes.
Their report, in the June 7 issue of the journal Nature, describes an exponentially increasing rate of species extinctions, extreme climate fluctuations, and other threats that together risk a level of upheaval not seen since the large-scale extinctions 65 million years ago that killed off the dinosaurs.
Earth Is Headed for Disaster, Interdisciplinary Team of Scientists Concludes - Government - The Chronicle of Higher Education


Even Sir David Attenborough says the same and hes an evolutionist.
Sir David Attenborough warns of human extinction if population not controlled | Metro News

Now lets see what the scientists say.
NASA-funded study: industrial civilization headed for 'irreversible collapse'?
Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'? | Nafeez Ahmed | Environment | theguardian.com

What about economists.
The Coming Economic Collapse Will Be Much Worse Than Most Realize.
Notice that MUCH WORSE THAN MOST REALIZE BIT.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article44160.html
and if you Google it like you said you will find plenty of the same from all the top economists sites and experts.

 

[biggles53]

What i have said is not just said by religious people it is said by many different people be it economists, environmentalists, scientists or anyone with some degree of intelligence. The warning signs are there and if you want to pretend they aren't then so be it. But dont say you didn't know or realize what is happening.

By the way I have researched it have you. But thats OK keep your head in the sand and everything will be alright. You hope.

An interdisciplinary group of 22 scientists, combining paleontological evidence with ecological modeling, has concluded that the earth appears headed toward catastrophic and irreversible environmental changes.
Their report, in the June 7 issue of the journal Nature, describes an exponentially increasing rate of species extinctions, extreme climate fluctuations, and other threats that together risk a level of upheaval not seen since the large-scale extinctions 65 million years ago that killed off the dinosaurs.
Earth Is Headed for Disaster, Interdisciplinary Team of Scientists Concludes - Government - The Chronicle of Higher Education


Even Sir David Attenborough says the same and hes an evolutionist.
Sir David Attenborough warns of human extinction if population not controlled | Metro News

Now lets see what the scientists say.
NASA-funded study: industrial civilization headed for 'irreversible collapse'?
Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'? | Nafeez Ahmed | Environment | theguardian.com

What about economists.
The Coming Economic Collapse Will Be Much Worse Than Most Realize.
Notice that MUCH WORSE THAN MOST REALIZE BIT.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article44160.html
and if you Google it like you said you will find plenty of the same from all the top economists sites and experts.

Ummmm......and this relates to war, homicide rates and levels of violent crime HOW EXACTLY....!?