Please explain to me how this is moral.

[ToddNotTodd]

Yes, we do make that choice....because it's not a belief, it's an action....

Never go anywhere...? I'm not so sure.... I know three people who have told me that they finalised their loss of faith as a result of 'lurking' around sites like this...

Anecdotal I know.....still, if we save only one, it's worth the effort...

During my time here, I've seen several people change their icons from Christian to atheist. Especially when they still had the General Apologetics section of the site.

I wonder why they closed that section...

 

[stevevw]

So you are saving us poor Christians from this horrible God. Its a pity you didn't spend as much time actually saving people from real life situations out there in this world. We have thousands who are having horrible lives in one way or another and need help. They need people to stand up for them and actually save them in a real way. Instead of talking the talk we should be walking the walk and helping these people.

Have you ever considered that there are many people who are helped by God and have better lives as a result. You always look at the negative and never see any positive. Yet it is acknowledge that religion has many benefits.

 

[Strathos]

Yes, we do make that choice....because it's not a belief, it's an action....

Never go anywhere...? I'm not so sure.... I know three people who have told me that they finalised their loss of faith as a result of 'lurking' around sites like this...

Anecdotal I know.....still, if we save only one, it's worth the effort...

"Saved" from what, exactly?

Don't say "being irrational/delusional", because A. That is only your view, and B. Many things that you believe in would be considered to be irrational and delusional by others, even your fellow atheists

 

[selfinflikted]

So you are saving us poor Christians from this horrible God. Its a pity you didn't spend as much time actually saving people from real life situations out there in this world. We have thousands who are having horrible lives in one way or another and need help. They need people to stand up for them and actually save them in a real way. Instead of talking the talk we should be walking the walk and helping these people.

Have you ever considered that there are many people who are helped by God and have better lives as a result. You always look at the negative and never see any positive. Yet it is acknowledge that religion has many benefits.

There are numerous benefits for some people in religion, and Christianity more specifically. But there is no denying that religion is also the cause of many things ranging from mild annoyances to the terrible and ghastly. Personally, I don't think the benefits outweigh the harm religion can do. I think it's better that people accept reality for what it is, realize it's not a bleak existence, and move on from there. It makes me sad for my fellow man that what I consider myth and superstition plays such a large part in their lives. I wouldn't necessarily try to cause anyone to fall from their faith, but I wouldn't be opposed to it. It's not what I'm out to do. But I do want people to think critically about just what it is they believe. I think that when people do that, really do that, they will open their eyes to new realizations.

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." - 1 Corinthians 13:11

 

[Strathos]

There are numerous benefits for some people in religion, and Christianity more specifically. But there is no denying that religion is also the cause of many things ranging from mild annoyances to the terrible and ghastly. Personally, I don't think the benefits outweigh the harm religion can do. I think it's better that people accept reality for what it is, realize it's not a bleak existence, and move on from there. It makes me sad for my fellow man that what I consider myth and superstition plays such a large part in their lives. I wouldn't necessarily try to cause anyone to fall from their faith, but I wouldn't be opposed to it. It's not what I'm out to do. But I do want people to think critically about just what it is they believe. I think that when people do that, really do that, they will open their eyes to new realizations.

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." - 1 Corinthians 13:11

Of course you probably don't realize that many other people think the exact same thing about many things you believe, or if you do you think they're obviously wrong and none of your beliefs could possibly be incorrect or irrational.

 

[selfinflikted]

Of course you probably don't realize that many other people think the exact same thing about many things you believe, or if you do you think they're obviously wrong and none of your beliefs could possibly be incorrect or irrational.

Certainly I realize that. And of course I think Christians are wrong in their beliefs, just as I think anyone who believes in any of the other myriad gods man has conjured up since he first looked into the sky and saw the sun, moon, lightning, etc to try to find the meaning or explanation of all those phenomena is wrong.

Maybe there are gods, no one knows for sure, but there probably aren't. I sure haven't seen one. Logically, reasonably, and intellectually there are no good reasons to believe there are any gods in existence. From where I sit, it looks just like one colossal hoax.

 

[Aldebaran]

The part in bold highlights the important point. They are not self-aware. It is not part of our moral code to own sentient beings.

Except for our pets.

Is that a concession that you endorse or are indifferent to torture?

Actually, it was my way of saying that I don't let your thoughts affect my way of thinking, or my beliefs. You're telling me you opinions about what I think, but I don't know what you expect me to do.

I'm not unhappy.

But are you content? Let me just ask you something that I've asked others here. What if someone showed you something that convinced you that God was real, and gave you an understanding of all the things about God and Christianity that you have problems with. Would you believe in God then? As a side note: Being convinced that you cannot be convinced would mean that you don't have an open mind about it. Having an open mind is a prerequisite.

 

[Skavau]

Except for our pets.

Actually, the ownership of pets is often consented to by the pets. We also have legislation governing how pet owners may treat their pets. We do not accept animal abuse.

Actually, it was my way of saying that I don't let your thoughts affect my way of thinking, or my beliefs. You're telling me you opinions about what I think, but I don't know what you expect me to do.

Do you endorse or are you indifferent to God's torture plans?

But are you content?

Yes, I would say in general. When I'm not, or have not been or might not be your world-view would not fulfill anything.

Let me just ask you something that I've asked others here. What if someone showed you something that convinced you that God was real, and gave you an understanding of all the things about God and Christianity that you have problems with. Would you believe in God then?

So if someone convinced me that God was real and responded to my moral issues with Christian theology, would I believe in God?

Yes.

As a side note: Being convinced that you cannot be convinced would mean that you don't have an open mind about it. Having an open mind is a prerequisite.

I didn't say that I am "convinced that I cannot be convinced". I said that I am currently, not convinced and in order to believe I would need to be convinced.

 

[Aldebaran]

Actually, the ownership of pets is often consented to by the pets. We also have legislation governing how pet owners may treat their pets. We do not accept animal abuse.

Did the pets tell you that?
But anyway, that's not what I was responding to. I was responding to what you said:

Originally Posted by Skavau

The part in bold highlights the important point. They are not self-aware. It is not part of our moral code to own sentient beings.
​

Do you endorse or are you indifferent to God's torture plans?

Could you load that question any further without it blowing up in your face?

So if someone convinced me that God was real and responded to my moral issues with Christian theology, would I believe in God?

Yes.

I didn't say that I am "convinced that I cannot be convinced". I said that I am currently, not convinced and in order to believe I would need to be convinced.

I don't know that even being convinced is the right word to use, especially in terms of people arguing with each other on the topic. How about this: What if God revealed Himself to you? Would you then believe He exists, or do you think you'd be inclined to find a away to explain away that revelation?

 

[Skavau]

Did the pets tell you that?

No, but their continued endorsement by means of staying where their owners live suggest endorsement. Many species are confined to their house, but they aren't uncomfortable or tortured in doing so and are generally content to their position.

Many cats are outdoors and remain where they are.

We do not own other creatures with the capacity to reason. To do so is widely considered slavery and is thought to be a very bad thing.

Could you load that question any further without it blowing up in your face?

So you disapprove, morally of God torturing people or allowing their torture?

One of three is necessary, you either:
1) Disapprove
2) Don't Care
3) Endorse

I don't know that even being convinced is the right word to use, especially in terms of people arguing with each other on the topic. How about this: What if God revealed Himself to you? Would you then believe He exists, or do you think you'd be inclined to find a away to explain away that revelation?

That depends on if I was convinced that what I was seeing was actually God. God would know what I would what kind of revelation I would need to see and/or experience in order to be convinced.

 

[Aldebaran]

No, but their continued endorsement by means of staying where their owners live suggest endorsement. Many species are confined to their house, but they aren't uncomfortable or tortured in doing so and are generally content to their position.

Why do they "endorse" it? Because their owners give them food, shelter and love. Am I wrong?

So you disapprove, morally of God torturing people or allowing their torture?

One of three is necessary, you either:
1) Disapprove
2) Don't Care
3) Endorse

If "torture" is even something God does.....
Have you even proven that's the case??? I don't think anyone with any certainty can say that it's the case. There are questions even amongst Christians what happens to people who have never heard of Christ. Babies, for instance. There are a few who think they were born into sin, but died before they could decide to accept Christ. I don't personally buy that. They didn't make a conscious decision either way, but God is still just in His decisions. Now, for adults who never had a chance....Well, I'm not the one who makes the decision about what happens to them. So let's not just assume nobody deserves hell, or at least your interpretation of it.

That depends on if I was convinced that what I was seeing was actually God. God would know what I would what kind of revelation I would need to see and/or experience in order to be convinced.

God reveals Himself to those who seek Him. All I can say now is that if you want to be "convinced" (if that's even the right word to use) that God is real, then sincerely pray to Him that He would reveal Himself to you and make Himself real to you. You're right that He knows what it would take, but part of what it takes is for you to be actively seeking Him.

 

[Skavau]

Why do they "endorse" it? Because their owners give them food, shelter and love. Am I wrong?

No, that's mostly correct.

If "torture" is even something God does.....

According to you, it is.

Have you even proven that's the case??? I don't think anyone with any certainty can say that it's the case. There are questions even amongst Christians what happens to people who have never heard of Christ.

I know.

But you've never shown any interest in that dilemma. This long into this discussion and this is the first time you've made note that perhaps those who have not heard of Christ get some kind of reprieve, and I've been nudging you to do that for some time.

Babies, for instance. There are a few who think they were born into sin, but died before they could decide to accept Christ. I don't personally buy that. They didn't make a conscious decision either way, but God is still just in His decisions.

What are you suggesting here, that God might torture babies who die before they could make a choice?

Now, for adults who never had a chance....Well, I'm not the one who makes the decision about what happens to them.

No, you're not, but you're on record for supporting whatever happens to them. Be it hell or not.

So let's not just assume nobody deserves hell, or at least your interpretation of it.

I don't think anyone, even the likes of Hitler deserve hell.

God reveals Himself to those who seek Him.

Going out of your way to specifically seek the the truth of a proposition is in itself, closing your mind. It would be attaining a confirmation bias in favour of a prospect.

How is seeking out God, looking for evidence for God any different than trying to reject God, looking for evidence against God? They're two sides of the same coin.

All I can say now is that if you want to be "convinced" (if that's even the right word to use) that God is real, then sincerely pray to Him that He would reveal Himself to you and make Himself real to you.

I'm not convinced that praying to any supernatural entity actually works. I could not take it seriously.

You're right that He knows what it would take, but part of what it takes is for you to be actively seeking Him.

You see the issue, I hope.

This is another nail in the concept of salvation. The only group of people that consider it a worthwhile endeavour to 'seek out' God are people who actually believe in God. As an atheist, I have no reason to load myself with a confirmation bias in favour of God. If God only extends his revelations to those who want to seek him then he is in effect excluding people who have no interest or desire to seek out what is from their perspective a nebulous and unlikely concept - which of course, leads them to hell. A situation that could be entirely resolved by God just revealing himself more generally.

 

[Aldebaran]

But you've never shown any interest in that dilemma. This long into this discussion and this is the first time you've made note that perhaps those who have not heard of Christ get some kind of reprieve, and I've been nudging you to do that for some time.

Because I keep saying "God is just". That means he knows the heart and mind of the person far more than I do. He knows their situation. You make it sound as I'm God's "decider". I never claimed I am.

What are you suggesting here, that God might torture babies who die before they could make a choice?

No. I outright stated that I don't believe that's the case. READ MORE CAREFULLY!

No, you're not, but you're on record for supporting whatever happens to them. Be it hell or not.

That's like saying that you support or endorse every single action taken by your country, no matter what, just because you live there.

I don't think anyone, even the likes of Hitler deserve hell.

If he repented before he died, then he won't.

Going out of your way to specifically seek the the truth of a proposition is in itself, closing your mind. It would be attaining a confirmation bias in favour of a prospect.

Sure. Just as a guy with a metal detector sweeping a field looking for buried treasure that someone told him exists there is closing his mind to the idea that buried treasure exists there.

How is seeking out God, looking for evidence for God any different than trying to reject God, looking for evidence against God? They're two sides of the same coin.

And you wonder why I don't answer all your questions!

I'm not convinced that praying to any supernatural entity actually works. I could not take it seriously.

Doing something you're not convinced of doing is called stepping out in faith. Kind of like jumping into a swimming pool for the first time, because someone told you that you won't sink to the bottom as you think you will, but will float.

This is another nail in the concept of salvation. The only group of people that consider it a worthwhile endeavour to 'seek out' God are people who actually believe in God. As an atheist, I have no reason to load myself with a confirmation bias in favour of God. If God only extends his revelations to those who want to seek him then he is in effect excluding people who have no interest or desire to seek out what is from their perspective a nebulous and unlikely concept - which of course, leads them to hell. A situation that could be entirely resolved by God just revealing himself more generally.

No, they are the people who are open to the possibility that God just might exist, and would accept Him into their lives if, in fact, He did.
It's just like the metal detector guy I was telling you about earlier. He's told a buried treasure exists in a field. The detectorist has strong doubts about it, but decides it's a worthwhile endeavor to spend a few days sweeping the area, just in case there's validity to the claim. Why does he do this? Because if there's any chance the treasure is there, it's certainly worth a few days of work to find out, because if it's there, he's going to be very rich.

In light of this, don't you think it's worth a few minutes of your time to step out in faith to pray to God to make Himself real to you? The promise of eternal life with God is worth a good amount more than that buried treasure out in a field.

 

[Skavau]

Because I keep saying "God is just". That means he knows the heart and mind of the person far more than I do. He knows their situation. You make it sound as I'm God's "decider". I never claimed I am.

You do keep saying that "God is just" but it is a meaningless proposition given that God could do anything and you would almost certainly call it just.

No. I outright stated that I don't believe that's the case. READ MORE CAREFULLY!

That's why I asked. It read to me as if you disagreed with them being unable to accept Christ, but it also included disagreement with them being born in sin - which is why I was not sure.

That's like saying that you support every single action taken by your country, no matter what, just because you live there.

Not really.

I presume you do not think that you should question God. That no matter what decisions he comes to, they're inherently just. Almost no-one says this about their country and no credible state would require that level of obedience in order to maintain citizenship.

I could protest against our ongoing monarchy every day if I wanted to and I would not be stripped of my citizenship. With your God, anyone who has not sworn allegiance to him is told where to go.

If he repented before he died, then he won't.

Even if he did not, Hitler would not deserve hell.

Sure. Just as a guy with a metal detector sweeping a field looking for buried treasure that someone told him exists there is closing his mind to the idea that buried treasure exists there.

That's not comparable. He'd be operating on a tip-off. Assuming he trusted the credibility and knowledge of the person that told him, it'd constitute a good reason to sweep the field.

You're asking me, on nothing, to just assume that a God must exist and begin looking for information to confirm that. That is a textbook confirmation bias.

And you wonder why I don't answer all your questions!

I do, actually. If it is close-minded to assume a God does not exist, or look for evidence against God then it is similarly close-minded to assume that a God does exist, or look for evidence to try and confirm that a God exists.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Doing something you're not convinced of doing is called stepping out in faith. Kind of like jumping into a swimming pool for the first time, because someone told you that you won't sink to the bottom as you think you will, but will float.

You erronously attributed this extract to me. A formatting error I'd assume.

At any rate, telling someone who is not confident about swimming or hasn't swum at all to just jump in is terrible advice. They really could sink if they are in water deeper than them.

No, they are the people who are open to the possibility that God just might exist, and would accept Him into their lives if, in fact, He did.

Right, because they have a bias. They already believe in God. They already want God to exist. Someone who is not a theist does not have such a position.

It's just like the metal detector guy I was telling you about earlier. He's told a buried treasure exists in a field. The detectorist has strong doubts about it, but decides it's a worthwhile endeavor to spend a few days sweeping the area, just in case there's validity to the claim. Why does he do this? Because if there's any chance the treasure is there, it's certainly worth a few days of work to find out, because if it's there, he's going to be very rich.

You're contrasting a physical action with that of belief. The Detector has found objects before. He knows that they are plausible, that they can exist. From my perspective, there's no reason to assume any part of Christianity is true and you appear to be forgetting that even if I did think it was true there would still be the moral issues to resolve. I do not believe that Christianity is ethical.

In light of this, don't you think it's worth a few minutes of your time to step out in faith to pray to God to make Himself real to you?

No. I could not take it seriously. Praying is credulous in itself. It is not motivated by logic but by desire, or if I'm being charitable: hope. Hope that an entity does answer it. I don't really desire a God to exist and I cannot drum up my mind in order to pretend otherwise.

In addition, what would you say if I did pray and found nothing? No revelation. Would my prayer be lacking sincerity or specific length?

In addition, I have no reason prejudice your conception over Islam, or Baha'i, or Zoroastarianism, or Hinduism, or Shinto or the multitudes of religions and ideologies and life philosophies that persist throughout the world.

The promise of eternal life with God is worth a good amount more than that buried treasure out in a field.

Your heaven stands in direct contrast with the shackled cries of those tormented for eternity. I could not endorse such a system ethically.

 

[stevevw]

There are numerous benefits for some people in religion, and Christianity more specifically. But there is no denying that religion is also the cause of many things ranging from mild annoyances to the terrible and ghastly. Personally, I don't think the benefits outweigh the harm religion can do. I think it's better that people accept reality for what it is, realize it's not a bleak existence, and move on from there. It makes me sad for my fellow man that what I consider myth and superstition plays such a large part in their lives. I wouldn't necessarily try to cause anyone to fall from their faith, but I wouldn't be opposed to it. It's not what I'm out to do. But I do want people to think critically about just what it is they believe. I think that when people do that, really do that, they will open their eyes to new realizations.

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." - 1 Corinthians 13:11

Talk about quoting a scripture out of context. There are far more people that havnt grown up in this world without religion. If you talk about using crutches to live there are many people on some sort of drug be it alcohol, prescribed medication or illegal who use them as a way to cope with this life. The reality is this world will not give people the answers and there will always be many who suffer. thats because its based on self and so long as they are OK the rest doesn't really matter. There will be many without food and money. There will be many who are disadvantaged and cant keep up. This world promotes a me generation and unreal expectation that people cant live up to.

It is not religion at fault with those wrongs it is humans. It is hate being disguised as religion. But that same hate is seen in political powers like dictatorships or the ethnic cleaning that is motivated by occupation on land. The true cause is mans hatred towards others. If it wasn't for the many people who happen to believe in God and that Jesus set the example to help others coming to the rescue then we would be in a much worse off state. Organizations like the Salvation Army and St Vincent de pauls are there rain hail or shine helping the needy and have done for over a hundred years.

Its funny because there have been many people saved from death and harm from believing that there is more to this cold and hateful world. There are many people who are depressed and taking their own lives in today's societies because all they see is this world and it has nothing to offer them. They have no hope and only see a number of years of the same pain and despair they have faced in their lives. The reality is that this world has little to offer that truly makes a person be at peace and have hope. This world is deteriorating and so is everyone in it. This world is just a material reality that will break and let people down over and over. Thank God that there is something other than this reality because there are billions who have a horrible existence in this one.

 

[Skavau]

It is not religion at fault with those wrongs it is humans. It is hate being disguised as religion. But that same hate is seen in political powers like dictatorships or the ethnic cleaning that is motivated by occupation on land. The true cause is mans hatred towards others. If it wasnt for the many people who happen to believe in God and that Jesus set the example to help others coming to the rescue then we would be in a much worse off state. Organizations like the Salvation Army and St Vincent de pauls are there rain hail or shine helping the needy and have done for over a hundred years.

Its funny because there have been many people saved from death and harm from believing that there is more to this cold and hateful world. There are many people who are depressed and taking their own lives in today's societies because all they see is this world and it has nothing to offer them. They have no hope and only see a number of years of the same pain and despair they have faced in their lives. The reality is that this world has little to offer that truly makes a person be at peace and have hope. This world is deteriorating and so is everyone in it. This world is just a material reality that will break and let people down over and over. Thank God that there is something other than this reality because there are billions who have a horrible existence in this one.

It is posts like this that convince me that many Christians are Nihilists in disguise.

 

[selfinflikted]

It is posts like this that convince me that many Christians are Nihilists in disguise.

I tend to agree. The greatest fault of Christianity, in my opinion, is promising "heaven" to its adherents. With their eyes constantly on the prize, it's like [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] on this world.

ETA: Stupid alleged "profanity" filter.

 

[stevevw]

It is posts like this that convince me that many Christians are Nihilists in disguise.

I think its the other way around. It is the many people of this world who are feeling like there is nothing and questioning if this life has any real value. Its like when someone places all that hope and trust in winning the lottery only to get there and find that it wasn't really what they were looking for and didn't offer that something they really wanted. The proof is in the pudding and its not religion that has caused or produced it its just the reality of what is happening. Its OK for the small % who are comfortable. But there is an ever increasing mass that are not as we seen with the GFC. The world thought it had the answers in prosperity but it all collapsed like a house of cards. I am just reporting the reality so dont shoot the messenger. But many want to put there heads in the sand and ignore the reality of whats happening. As far as I am concerned and I would say most Christians we are pretty clear on what the reality is. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. He offer life in its abundance and there is no other way to find true life that has all the answers. But its not just eternity, its also a better life now in this one. Heaven can begin here on earth.

The point is like a lot of Christians I dont only profess this but I go out and help the needy and try to make their lives a bit better in this one. But when it passes which maybe 50 or 80 years it can go in the blink of an eye and before you know it you wonder if there is more to things than just this flash of existence that didn't really amount to much for billions. It doesn't matter what or how you try to paint it. The reality is that is the life many are living with and will continue to do so and no one is really caring to much about it except for their own existence.

 

[Strathos]

Certainly I realize that. And of course I think Christians are wrong in their beliefs, just as I think anyone who believes in any of the other myriad gods man has conjured up since he first looked into the sky and saw the sun, moon, lightning, etc to try to find the meaning or explanation of all those phenomena is wrong.

Maybe there are gods, no one knows for sure, but there probably aren't. I sure haven't seen one. Logically, reasonably, and intellectually there are no good reasons to believe there are any gods in existence. From where I sit, it looks just like one colossal hoax.

I'm not even necessarily talking about gods or religion. Surely you, like everyone else, have many beliefs and views on things that aren't related to gods or religion, right? Things like politics, economics, science, philosophy, morality, etc.?

Are you blind to the idea that any one of those views could be completely wrong, "logically, reasonably, and intellectually" - but you only believe it because you have been conditioned to do so and never questioned it? Or have only been exposed to one side of the issue without really investigating the other side? i.e. the same thing atheists accuse theists of?

Many atheists think that as soon as they renounce religion, they have got the world all figured out, and they're automatically more intelligent and rational people because of it, and not susceptible to "delusions" like those silly theists. Yet they are still blind to the folly of any views they might have, that even other atheists might consider just as bad or worse than religion.

These beliefs you hold might even be actively harmful, just like atheists accuse religion of being. Yet you refuse to consider that possibility, just like you accuse theists of doing.

 

[stevevw]

I'm not even necessarily talking about gods or religion. Surely you, like everyone else, have many beliefs and views on things that aren't related to gods or religion, right? Things like politics, economics, science, philosophy, morality, etc.?

Are you blind to the idea that any one of those views could be completely wrong, "logically, reasonably, and intellectually" - but you only believe it because you have been conditioned to do so and never questioned it? Or have only been exposed to one side of the issue without really investigating the other side? i.e. the same thing atheists accuse theists of?

Many atheists think that as soon as they renounce religion, they have got the world all figured out, and they're automatically more intelligent and rational people because of it, and not susceptible to "delusions" like those silly theists. Yet they are still blind to the folly of any views they might have, that even other atheists might consider just as bad or worse than religion.

These beliefs you hold might even be actively harmful, just like atheists accuse religion of being. Yet you refuse to consider that possibility, just like you accuse theists of doing.

Its a bit like the lottery. Millions spend millions on gambling in the hope of winning and dream of a better life. Even to the point of denying money to their loved ones for food and the mortgage. Gambling is a massive problem that is promoted as a way of having a better life yet the majority never win. Even when they do its really a big let down in the end. But they are blinded and deluded just like how some say religion operates. This is a human trait and its not just religion that does it.