Please Explain How these Passages are Consistent with Calvinism

Thursday

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That has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Desiring to know Christ more fully, is not the same thing as how Christ's work s applied to sinners.


Paul tells us that we must work as well. We must cooperate with the grace of Jesus.

The devil would love for us s to continue living in unrepentant sin while thinking we are bound for heaven.
 
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ladodgers6

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Paul tells us that we must work as well. We must cooperate with the grace of Jesus.

The devil would love for us s to continue living in unrepentant sin while thinking we are bound for heaven.
I have been doing some research. And I have a question. So you guys believe that a believer is judged at the end by what they have done. To see if they receive a final justification by their works?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Paul tells us that we must work as well. We must cooperate with the grace of Jesus.

Where does Paul say cooperate with grace?

The devil would love for us s to continue living in unrepentant sin while thinking we are bound for heaven.

Unrepentant sin is not the same thing as works, or lack of them.
 
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Thursday

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I have been doing some research. And I have a question. So you guys believe that a believer is judged at the end by what they have done. To see if they receive a final justification by their works?

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Matt 25
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Romans 14:10
Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.
 
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ladodgers6

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2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Matt 25
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Romans 14:10
Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

Is your answer yes or no? So you do believe that we are justified by OUR works before God. I beg to differ. Christ is our 'once and all' justification before God through Faith Alone! This is a 'One-Time Act' of justification in Christ, because Christ Himself earned it through His perfect righteousness & holiness for us! I will play along. Here is Paul speaking about works and Faith. Will you explain them?

Righteousness Through Faith

Romans 3:21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Justification by Grace Alone
by Sinclair Ferguson
The idea that Justification by faith is the standing or falling article of the church is typically associated with Martin Luther. It is also, surely, the standing or falling article of the individual Christian. The strength or weakness of our grasp of justification by faith is integrally related to our freedom and joy in Christ.
Free justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone lies at the heart of the application of redemption. The faith that unites us to Christ also sucks in every spiritual blessing in Him: peace with God, exultation in the hope of the glory of God, in tribulation, and even in God Himself. There is no condemnation for the believer, no prison-cell existence. For what the Law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God has done! He sent His Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin, and for Him o condemn sin in the flesh so that the righteous requirements of the Law might be fulfilled in them. The spirit of bondage is gone!

Earlier in his argument in Romans, Paul had employed an intriguing piece of the Gospel logic:

Question: If justification is by Grace Alone, by Faith Alone, in Christ Alone--what becomes of our boasting?

Answer: Boasting is excluded.

Question: On what principle? On the principle of works?​
We should pause before reading further in Paul's dialogue.​
The answer here is, surely, yes. For Paul has been insisting that boasting is excluded because we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We cannot justify ourselves by our works. We have broken God's Law, whether the Law embedded in God's image at creation or the Law revealed at Sinai.

So it id true that boasting is excluded by the principle of works; we have no works that are able to ground our boasting.

But, in the event, this is not the answer Paul gives, because it is not the logic he uses in this context:

Question: On what principle (is boasting excluded)? On the principle of works?

Answer: No, not on the principle of works.

Question: On what principle then?

Answer: On the principle of Grace.

Paul's reasoning is both unexpected and profound. It is true that our lack of works makes boasting impossible. But the principle, or Law, of works as such does not a priori exclude boasting. Were we able to adhere to it, we could say, " I did it my way." Potentially we would have something in which to boast.

So the principle or Law of works excludes boasting de facto. It is excluded a posteriori but not a priori.

But the principle or Law of Grace rules out all possibility of boasting a priori! It take all contribution to justification out of our hands and leaves it entirely in God's hands. Grace rules out all qualification by definition. Grace therefore eliminates boasting; it suffocates boasting; it silences any and all negotiations about our contribution before they can even begin. By definition we cannot "qualify" for Grace in anyway, by any means, or through any action on our part.

Thus it is understanding God's Grace--that is to say, understanding God himself--that demolishes legalism. Grace highlights legalism's bankruptcy and shows that it is not one useless; it is pointless; it's life breath is smothered out by it.











































 
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Thursday

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Is your answer yes or no? So you do believe that we are justified by OUR works before God. I beg to differ. Christ is our 'once and all' justification before God through Faith Alone! This is a 'One-Time Act' of justification in Christ, because Christ Himself earned it through His perfect righteousness & holiness for us! I will play along. Here is Paul speaking about works and Faith. Will you explain them?

Righteousness Through Faith

Romans 3:21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Justification by Grace Alone
by Sinclair Ferguson
The idea that Justification by faith is the standing or falling article of the church is typically associated with Martin Luther. It is also, surely, the standing or falling article of the individual Christian. The strength or weakness of our grasp of justification by faith is integrally related to our freedom and joy in Christ.
Free justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone lies at the heart of the application of redemption. The faith that unites us to Christ also sucks in every spiritual blessing in Him: peace with God, exultation in the hope of the glory of God, in tribulation, and even in God Himself. There is no condemnation for the believer, no prison-cell existence. For what the Law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God has done! He sent His Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin, and for Him o condemn sin in the flesh so that the righteous requirements of the Law might be fulfilled in them. The spirit of bondage is gone!

Earlier in his argument in Romans, Paul had employed an intriguing piece of the Gospel logic:

Question: If justification is by Grace Alone, by Faith Alone, in Christ Alone--what becomes of our boasting?

Answer: Boasting is excluded.

Question: On what principle? On the principle of works?​
We should pause before reading further in Paul's dialogue.​
The answer here is, surely, yes. For Paul has been insisting that boasting is excluded because we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We cannot justify ourselves by our works. We have broken God's Law, whether the Law embedded in God's image at creation or the Law revealed at Sinai.

So it id true that boasting is excluded by the principle of works; we have no works that are able to ground our boasting.

But, in the event, this is not the answer Paul gives, because it is not the logic he uses in this context:

Question: On what principle (is boasting excluded)? On the principle of works?

Answer: No, not on the principle of works.

Question: On what principle then?

Answer: On the principle of Grace.

Paul's reasoning is both unexpected and profound. It is true that our lack of works makes boasting impossible. But the principle, or Law, of works as such does not a priori exclude boasting. Were we able to adhere to it, we could say, " I did it my way." Potentially we would have something in which to boast.

So the principle or Law of works excludes boasting de facto. It is excluded a posteriori but not a priori.

But the principle or Law of Grace rules out all possibility of boasting a priori! It take all contribution to justification out of our hands and leaves it entirely in God's hands. Grace rules out all qualification by definition. Grace therefore eliminates boasting; it suffocates boasting; it silences any and all negotiations about our contribution before they can even begin. By definition we cannot "qualify" for Grace in anyway, by any means, or through any action on our part.

Thus it is understanding God's Grace--that is to say, understanding God himself--that demolishes legalism. Grace highlights legalism's bankruptcy and shows that it is not one useless; it is pointless; it's life breath is smothered out by it.​




The bible is clear that we will be judged for our works. Our works can't please God without his grace, but he offers this to us freely. How will we respond to this free gift? Our response to God's grace determines out eternal destiny. We can't do it alone, but we must endure to be saved.



 
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ladodgers6

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The bible is clear that we will be judged for our works. Our works can't please God without his grace, but he offers this to us freely. How will we respond to this free gift? Our response to God's grace determines out eternal destiny. We can't do it alone, but we must endure to be saved.​

For the record the Reformed Faith does not deny evangelical obedience of the Believer. Where we part ways, is that you do not know what this gift is? Because its what is inside this Gift that God gives to the ungodly that saves us; namely Christ Jesus and His works!
 
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Thursday

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For the record the Reformed Faith does not deny evangelical obedience of the Believer. Where we part ways, is that you do not know what this gift is? Because its what is inside this Gift that God gives to the ungodly that saves us; namely Christ Jesus and His works!


So you believe that when a man goes to Hell it is entirely God's fault because nothing we do could make any difference in our eternal destiny. Is that correct?
 
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ladodgers6

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So you believe that when a man goes to Hell it is entirely God's fault because nothing we do could make any difference in our eternal destiny. Is that correct?

Do you understand the Promise God made to Abraham? Do you understand what Christ came to accomplish?
 
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ladodgers6

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You aren't answering the question.

I am answering your question. That's why you do not want to answer these questions, because it will answer your questions.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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So you believe that when a man goes to Hell it is entirely God's fault because nothing we do could make any difference in our eternal destiny.

All men will receive justice from God. Christ received the just punishment for His sheep.

There are no men who wish to come to Christ who will be rejected by Him. This is very clear: "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." (John 6:37 NIV)
 
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Thursday

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All men will receive justice from God. Christ received the just punishment for His sheep.

There are no men who wish to come to Christ who will be rejected by Him. This is very clear: "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." (John 6:37 NIV)


You didn't address the question.
 
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Phantasman

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Do you understand the Promise God made to Abraham? Do you understand what Christ came to accomplish?

I don't believe Jesus Father made a promise to Abraham any more than I believe the Father asked him to kill his son. Christ said two things that dispute that thinking.

1. Abraham did not get his truth from Heaven.
2. No man has seen or heard the Father.

That's from Jesus, Gospel of John.

John:
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. (this is not a question, but a statement)

John:
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John:
I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
(understand the mystery of two).

One father promises physical things, the other spiritual. The Father would never promise "land".
 
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ladodgers6

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I don't believe Jesus Father made a promise to Abraham any more than I believe the Father asked him to kill his son. Christ said two things that dispute that thinking.

1. Abraham did not get his truth from Heaven.
2. No man has seen or heard the Father.

That's from Jesus, Gospel of John.

John:
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. (this is not a question, but a statement)

John:
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John:
I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
(understand the mystery of two).

One father promises physical things, the other spiritual. The Father would never promise "land".
Huh? What on earth are you talking about?

I will quote the whole of the passages to get Paul's theme here.

By Faith, or by Works of the Law?

1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected bya the flesh? 4Did you sufferb so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justifyc the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith

10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

The Law and the Promise

15To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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Yes, Jesus work on the cross made it possible for all people to be saved, but I think one thing we share in common is that we are not Universalists, so we know that while Christ's death on the cross was sufficient to save all men, not all men will be saved. It is only those that the Father has drawn towards them (John 6:44), and have been given the gift of faith (Ephesians 2:18) that will actually be saved.

Using the principle of letting scripture interpret scripture, all are drawn to Christ by His death (Jn 12:32.) There is nothing in the context of the passage to restrict 'all' here to merely mean some or all types of men.

In John 12:30-33 the direct context is about judgment upon the world, the prince of darkness being cast out, and the call to believe in the light (Christ). So when Jesus says that by His death He will draw 'all' to Himself (men or people is not actually in the text there, though certainly they are included), then everything on Heaven and Earth applies (Matt 28:18, I Cor 15:27, Phil 2:8-11) minus the Father Himself. More concretely in regards to salvation, Christ laid open the way to salvation before all men and nations (Rom 16:25-27, Heb 1:2-3, John 1:9-18, etc).

The figurative usage of helkó in Greek (both in the Bible in Jn 12:32 and Jn 6:44, and in other ancient Greek) writings such as Platis to draw by inward power; to lead; to impel; to induce; to drive forward; to incite. It does not necessitate unavoidable force, but rather the power of attraction given off by a thing/person. While it might be tempting to apply all the nuances of a word used literally to its figurative counterpart, that is not how the koine Greek works. 'Draw' is an excellent English translation in this case, as it also can be literal (such as 'drawing a sword') or figurative (such as 'his personality drew others to him.')

In John 12:32 we see Jesus, by his death, draws all men to himself, just as the snake on the pole was lifted up before all the Israelites. It is indeed the person and actions of Jesus that impel us to faith when we hear the gospel; not our own imaginings or works. We have our 'firm persuasion' in Christ, not because He forces us to believe, but because His death and Resurrection is a compelling proof, and because the Holy Spirit now convicts the world of sin (John 16:7-11). This does not mean all will listen or be persuaded, for many love darkness more than light. Even the proof of someone rises from the dead will not persuade them (Luke 16:31)

Note that in John 6:44 it does not say that God draws some and does not draw others, but rather that no man could come to God unless drawn. Christ then draws all men and all things (John 12:32), thereby giving them the power to come to God. This is part of the ministry of reconciliation, in which we implore men on Christ's behalf to be reconciled to God through Christ ( II Cor 5:11-21).

It's much like the spiritual concept that no one can spiritually eat without first having been given spiritual food, but Jesus provided true spiritual food to all men. Men must still eat of it. (John 6:25-69).

Using the principle of taking a passage in context and following the original Greek grammar, faith in Eph 2:18 cannot be 'the gift.' Faith is feminine gender, the gift is neuter gender. The Greek grammar and context, without ambiguity, shows the phrase as a whole, 'by grace you have been saved, through faith' is what is not of ourselves, but rather the gift of God.
What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?
 
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Marvin Knox

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Romans 2
6God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.
So ---- After all these pages, have you explained to us just how the verses cited in the OP contradict Calvinism?
 
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Thursday

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So ---- After all these pages, have you explained to us just how the verses cited in the OP contradict Calvinism?


It seems clear enough to me.


Calvinism says: It doesn't matter what you do, but only your faith matters with regard to salvation.

The bible says:

Romans 2
6God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Calvinism says: Salvation is unconditional and it has nothing to do with anything God sees a person doing.

The bible says:

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Calvinism says God's grace saves us with no regard for our actions on earth.

The bible says:

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Calvinism says that God is partial, choosing some men for salvation and others for condemnation without any regard for their actions on earth.

The bible says:

1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Calvinism says: It doesn't matter what you do, but only your faith matters with regard to salvation.
Calvinism does not say that it doesn't matter what you do. No Calvinist would say such a thing.

Salvation is a multi faceted concept of course. But- if we are talking about the Heaven vs. Hell part of salvation - then you are correct. Calvinism does teach that salvation is by grace through faith alone.
The bible says:
Romans 2
6God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Calvinism agrees with what the scripture says here.

Every man will answer for those things done in the flesh whether good or bad.

God will give eternal life to those who do good by seeking glory, honor and immortality. Those the Father gives to the Son, the Father will draw to the Son to do good (repentance) and seek glory, honor and immortality through the acceptance of the finished work of the Son at Calvary unto eternal life.

What's the problem with that? That's exactly what Calvinists teach.
Calvinism says: Salvation is unconditional and it has nothing to do with anything God sees a person doing.
God is not a respecter of persons. Indeed there is nothing in any natural person which commends them to God. There's nothing there to respect in that they are all children of wrath and enemies of God.

The choice as to whom the Father will give enlightenment through His drawing to the Son is indeed unconditional. It is by grace from the very start - commencing from before the foundation of the world.

No one, in and of his natural nature, seeks God or even understands spiritual things - let alone exercises Biblical faith unto justification resulting in eternal life. It is by grace alone that we come to a saving faith and are justified before God. The scriptures couldn't be more clear on that. Do you have scriptures which teach otherwise?
The bible says:
John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.
Calvinists agree and teach exactly that.

"This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us." 1 John 3:23

He who believes on the Son has eternal life and will never again come into condemnation.

Do you see something there which says something other this which all Calvinists teach?
Calvinism says God's grace saves us with no regard for our actions on earth.
Again - salvation is a multi-faceted word. But everyone will answer for what they have done on earth - every word and every deed - whether good or bad.

Do you believe that that is not a valid principle just because Hell fire is not a possibility for those the Holy Spirit has sealed against the day of judgement?
The bible says:
Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Calvinists agree completely. You have been told this before.

Every man (saved or unsaved) will answer for what he has done while in the flesh whether good or bad (i.e. - every word and every deed).

What's the your problem with Calvinists on this point.?

Is it simply that they believe Christ when He says that those who pass from death to life will not again come into condemnation? Is it that they simply believe what the scriptures say concerning the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit?
Calvinism says that God is partial, choosing some men for salvation and others for condemnation without any regard for their actions on earth.
Exactly - that's why that chooice is said to have happened before they did anything good or bad or indeed before they even existed.

What do you do with those scriptures by the way?:scratch:
The bible says:
Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
We've been over that ground before - and not just in this post. Do you remember going over it before?
Calvinism says that God is partial, choosing some men for salvation and others for condemnation without any regard for their actions on earth.
Exactly - just as the scriptures say.
The bible says:
1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.
Every Calvinist believes and teaches that.

By the way - we are not "saved" by our works. Even Roman Catholicism acknowledges that theologically - even if their overall practice does contradict it for all practical purposes.

The fact is that the OP is nothing but a straw man set up to kick around in the presence of those who are too ill-informed to see through it.

The bottom line here seems to be that you do not believe that salvation is by grace. You apparently believe that one is saved (and kept saved) by living up to a standard yet to be determined. Apparently that standard is to be set by men of the cloth since no one can be perfect and earn total eternal acceptance by the standards of our Holy God except through the vicarious life of Jesus Christ our Savior.

Your knowledge seems to be woefully inadequate when it comes to understanding salvation by grace through faith. Frankly - you being a Catholic - that doesn't surprise me in the least.
 
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