Plant cell versus animal cell

Elendur

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Plant cell and animal cell are in two Kingdoms (?).

Is there any effort which tried to convert one into another? Why is it so difficult? Is it theoretically impossible?
I think it is possible, but not now. The cells are fundamentally different. I'll try to find some good pictures.

Edit:
Can't paste the pictures (they won't show). But here's two pictures of each cell type:

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/animals/cell/anatomy.GIF

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/plants/cell/anatomy.GIF

Some differences are:
Plant cells have a cell wall that will prevent the cell from exploding when put in extreme habitats.
Plant cells have chloroplasts.


(I've just picked this up in biology class, I'm by no means an expert)
 
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Naraoia

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Plant cell and animal cell are in two Kingdoms (?).

Is there any effort which tried to convert one into another? Why is it so difficult? Is it theoretically impossible?
Not sure the first question even makes sense to me. What do you mean by convert one into another? You could take an animal cell, suck out its nucleus, insert a nucleus and a chloroplast from a plant cell and hope it works. Or you could inject some genes to reprogram one into something like the other, like you can reprogram all sorts of cells into stem cells (you'd still have to add a chloroplast). Or something else, I don't know, and not sure what the point would be either way. What did you mean by "convert"?

As to the other two questions: the second assumes that it is difficult. Probably a reasonable assumption, but still a bad question... The third depends on what you mean by "convert one into another".

I think it is possible, but not now. The cells are fundamentally different. I'll try to find some good pictures.

Edit:
Can't paste the pictures (they won't show). But here's two pictures of each cell type:

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/animals/cell/anatomy.GIF

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/plants/cell/anatomy.GIF

Some differences are:
Plant cells have a cell wall that will prevent the cell from exploding when put in extreme habitats.
Plant cells have chloroplasts.


(I've just picked this up in biology class, I'm by no means an expert)
IIRC there's also a big difference in the way they divide. Any cell biologists to help out?
 
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juvenissun

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Not sure the first question even makes sense to me. What do you mean by convert one into another? You could take an animal cell, suck out its nucleus, insert a nucleus and a chloroplast from a plant cell and hope it works. Or you could inject some genes to reprogram one into something like the other, like you can reprogram all sorts of cells into stem cells (you'd still have to add a chloroplast). Or something else, I don't know, and not sure what the point would be either way. What did you mean by "convert"?

As to the other two questions: the second assumes that it is difficult. Probably a reasonable assumption, but still a bad question... The third depends on what you mean by "convert one into another".

Convert simply means "change to". It could be done by all means. So, you suggested it might be done by artificial biogenetic methods. Has anyone done this? There could be no obvious purpose for doing this. It could simply be a biological exercise. Of course, when you failed, then you may ask yourself: what is the problem? Would it become more significant by then?

In terms of natural process, I guess it would be "theoretically" impossible. Right?
 
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Naraoia

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Convert simply means "change to".
As you see, it's not at all simple ;)

It could be done by all means. So, you suggested it might be done by artificial biogenetic methods. Has anyone done this?
Not that I know of. I see no reason to try, either.

There could be no obvious purpose for doing this. It could simply be a biological exercise. Of course, when you failed, then you may ask yourself: what is the problem? Would it become more significant by then?
No.

In terms of natural process, I guess it would be "theoretically" impossible. Right?
What makes you think that? Give evolution a billion years, and who knows what happens. Animals did pick up photosynthesis, eventually ;)

However, a technicality. Let's assume you took a modern animal cell (modern animal cells don't survive all that well without a body, but we'll ignore that for the moment), left it for a billion years, and for some reason its descendants acquired chloroplasts and cellulose cell walls all kinds of other features of "plantness".

Would they be plant cells? Or just something LIKE plant cells? In the increasingly popular evolutionary classification system we use, it would be the latter. If you look like a plant, quack like a plant, but your plantness and an oak tree's plantness don't come from the same ancestor, you are NOT a plant. You are a remarkable example of convergent evolution.

Now that I've gone off on one of my beloved cladistic tangents, can you explain why you asked the question?

(Random curiosity is a perfectly valid explanation, FWIW. I can't tell you how many questions I've asked the world for no other reason than they seemed interesting at the time. Nonetheless, I don't think I've ever seen you ask such a question without an agenda...)
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Plant cell and animal cell are in two Kingdoms (?).
Correct. The most recent common ancestor between plants (algae, oak trees) and animals (humans, hummingbirds) lived between one and two billion years ago, and was likely a very primitive cell.

Is there any effort which tried to convert one into another?
None that I'm aware of, though there's a species of slug that can ingest chloroplasts and use them for energy, and I think there's work on genetic splicing.

Why is it so difficult? Is it theoretically impossible?
It's because they're so fundamentally different, right down to the organelles in the cells. Contrast this with two species with a recent common ancestor, h. sapiens and P. troglodytes, between which blood can be transfused.
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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juvenissun said:
Plant cell and animal cell are in two Kingdoms (?).

Is there any effort which tried to convert one into another? Why is it so difficult? Is it theoretically impossible?

Apparently yes:
Shaped like a leaf itself, the slug Elysia chlorotica already has a reputation for kidnapping the photosynthesizing organelles and some genes from algae. Now it turns out that the slug has acquired enough stolen goods to make an entire plant chemical-making pathway work inside an animal body, says Sidney K. Pierce of the University of South Florida in Tampa.

The slugs can manufacture the most common form of chlorophyll, the green pigment in plants that captures energy from sunlight, Pierce reported January 7 at the annual meeting of the Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology. Pierce used a radioactive tracer to show that the slugs were making the pigment, called chlorophyll a, themselves and not simply relying on chlorophyll reserves stolen from the algae the slugs dine on.

“This could be a fusion of a plant and an animal — that’s just cool,” said invertebrate zoologist John Zardus of The Citadel in Charleston, S.C.

green_sea_slug.jpg



Yes Mr. Zardus, that is kewl.​
 
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AV1611VET

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Plant cell and animal cell are in two Kingdoms (?).

Is there any effort which tried to convert one into another? Why is it so difficult? Is it theoretically impossible?
I can't speak for theoretically impossible, as scientists have more theoretics than Carter has liver pills.

But theo-logically, it is not impossible.

Exodus 7:10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.

(I hope I didn't steal your trump card -- ;))
 
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juvenissun

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As you see, it's not at all simple ;)

Not that I know of. I see no reason to try, either.

No.

What makes you think that? Give evolution a billion years, and who knows what happens. Animals did pick up photosynthesis, eventually ;)

However, a technicality. Let's assume you took a modern animal cell (modern animal cells don't survive all that well without a body, but we'll ignore that for the moment), left it for a billion years, and for some reason its descendants acquired chloroplasts and cellulose cell walls all kinds of other features of "plantness".

Would they be plant cells? Or just something LIKE plant cells? In the increasingly popular evolutionary classification system we use, it would be the latter. If you look like a plant, quack like a plant, but your plantness and an oak tree's plantness don't come from the same ancestor, you are NOT a plant. You are a remarkable example of convergent evolution.

Now that I've gone off on one of my beloved cladistic tangents, can you explain why you asked the question?

(Random curiosity is a perfectly valid explanation, FWIW. I can't tell you how many questions I've asked the world for no other reason than they seemed interesting at the time. Nonetheless, I don't think I've ever seen you ask such a question without an agenda...)

Of course I have a reason, a very important reason. The answer (or no answer) of this question will give an argument to my another question.

I want to know why is the boundary between these two type of cells so unbreakable. If I were a biologist, I would love to engineer a green cow which has a strong hide and can be fed by sunlight.

Not people who don't want to do it, but they can not. My curiosity is: there MUST be some people who have tried it. What is the result?
 
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juvenissun

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I can't speak for theoretically impossible, as scientists have more theoretics than Carter has liver pills.

But theo-logically, it is not impossible.

Exodus 7:10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.

(I hope I didn't steal your trump card -- ;))

Whoa, thanks, brother. An excellent verse for this topic. Good job.
 
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juvenissun

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Apparently yes:
Shaped like a leaf itself, the slug Elysia chlorotica already has a reputation for kidnapping the photosynthesizing organelles and some genes from algae. Now it turns out that the slug has acquired enough stolen goods to make an entire plant chemical-making pathway work inside an animal body, says Sidney K. Pierce of the University of South Florida in Tampa.

The slugs can manufacture the most common form of chlorophyll, the green pigment in plants that captures energy from sunlight, Pierce reported January 7 at the annual meeting of the Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology. Pierce used a radioactive tracer to show that the slugs were making the pigment, called chlorophyll a, themselves and not simply relying on chlorophyll reserves stolen from the algae the slugs dine on.

“This could be a fusion of a plant and an animal — that’s just cool,” said invertebrate zoologist John Zardus of The Citadel in Charleston, S.C.

green_sea_slug.jpg

This was illustrated once to me. My question at that time was: why is this feature unique. But, I am not going to pursue that here.

Why should plant cell have cell wall? If that is an advantage, then animal cell does not have that advantage.

How about plant DNA? Is that fundamentally different from animal DNA and leads to the fundamental difference between the two cells?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Of course I have a reason, a very important reason. The answer (or no answer) of this question will give an argument to my another question.

I want to know why is the boundary between these two type of cells so unbreakable. If I were a biologist, I would love to engineer a green cow which has a strong hide and can be fed by sunlight.

Not people who don't want to do it, but they can not. My curiosity is: there MUST be some people who have tried it. What is the result?
Biologists know enough about plant and animal cells to know that there's no technology available today that would achieve such a feat. Indeed, biologists know that to 'convert' a plant cell to an animal cell makes little sense - to do it, you'd need to remove all the plant bits (i.e., the entire cell) and replace them with all the animal bits (i.e., an entire animal cell).

In other words, if all you're doing is removing the cell wall and chloroplasts and things with microscopic tweezers, what's the point?

It's like asking why has nobody converted a Mazda into a Mini Cooper. You could, but the result wouldn't be a Mini Cooper, it's be a Mazda, then a Mazda with a Mini's engine, then a Mazda chassis with a Mini interior, then a Mini with Mazda wheels, and then a Mini.

Yes, it can be done, but there's no point - even if we had the technology to do so, there's no scientific value. It's the cellular equivalent of the Human Centipede - yes, in theory (human anatomy notwithstanding) you could sew humans together mouth-to-anus, but since we already know what the result would be, why would we do it?
 
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juvenissun

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Correct. The most recent common ancestor between plants (algae, oak trees) and animals (humans, hummingbirds) lived between one and two billion years ago, and was likely a very primitive cell.


None that I'm aware of, though there's a species of slug that can ingest chloroplasts and use them for energy, and I think there's work on genetic splicing.


It's because they're so fundamentally different, right down to the organelles in the cells. Contrast this with two species with a recent common ancestor, h. sapiens and P. troglodytes, between which blood can be transfused.

I wonder how different they are. Are they the cause or the consequence of the difference?
 
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Elendur

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I want to know why is the boundary between these two type of cells so unbreakable.
Who has said it is unbreakable?

The construction of the groups "animals" and "plants" are man made.
We define animals by their ancestors and plants by theirs, if we were to ignore those we could (note, COULD) get similar (if not identical) cell structures. Thus calling a plant cell an animal cell or vice versa.
But as Naraoia wrote, just because they will be similar doesn't mean they will belong to the same group (if that is the correct term, I'm not sure).

Not people who don't want to do it, but they can not. My curiosity is: there MUST be some people who have tried it. What is the result?
Now why would there have to be someone who's tried it? There is no commercial interest (or close to at least) since it's an undeveloped field and we lack efficient means to do it.
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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juvenissun said:
How about plant DNA? Is that fundamentally different from animal DNA and leads to the fundamental difference between the two cells?

According to the Wired.com article the animal slug and plant algae have "swapped" genes. These slugs, uniquely it seems, suck the choloroplasts (tiny "organs" inside the cells which convert sunlight into food) out of the algae and capture them in their guts. And they stay there for the rest of their lives, so they never have to eat again. They live off sunlight.

From what I know about gene transfer it's posible to mix and match DNA no matter what genus, class or kingdom an organism belongs to. Cows and snakes apparently share a particular gene, even though they're obviously not that closely related.

I know certain viruses are capable of "injecting" genes into a cell, but I've never heard of something like this before. It's like me having a steak and then eating grass for the rest of my life ...
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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Wiccan_Child said:
Biologists know enough about plant and animal cells to know that there's no technology available today that would achieve such a feat. Indeed, biologists know that to 'convert' a plant cell to an animal cell makes little sense - to do it, you'd need to remove all the plant bits (i.e., the entire cell) and replace them with all the animal bits (i.e., an entire animal cell).

In other words, if all you're doing is removing the cell wall and chloroplasts and things with microscopic tweezers, what's the point?

Nature did it. :p
 
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Naraoia

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Of course I have a reason, a very important reason. The answer (or no answer) of this question will give an argument to my another question.

I want to know why is the boundary between these two type of cells so unbreakable.
It's not so much that it's unbreakable. It's more that, as Wiccan said, if you changed all the bits that make them different... you'd just replace one with the other and gain nothing interesting.

If I were a biologist, I would love to engineer a green cow which has a strong hide and can be fed by sunlight.
I actually think that photosynthetic cows are entirely possible - but that's not converting animal cells into plant cells any more than the green slug is a plant. "All" you need to do is engineer chloroplasts and the non-chloroplast genes necessary for photosynthesis into cow embryos. I'm sure it could be done if someone really wanted to do it.

Not people who don't want to do it, but they can not. My curiosity is: there MUST be some people who have tried it.
Why?

Why should plant cell have cell wall? If that is an advantage, then animal cell does not have that advantage.
:sigh: Here we go again. Every single thread you start about evolution, we explain this to you.

(1) "Advantage" is relative. What's good for a cell with nothing to do but collect sunlight may not be good for another cell who specialises in eating things. I'm not sure phagocytosis works through a cell wall...

(2) The same problem can have multiple solutions. It's easier not to burst if you have a tough cell wall, but the cytoskeleton is also there to hold things together, and then there are clever osmoregulatory tricks like these organelles to prevent non-walled cells from filling up with water.

How about plant DNA? Is that fundamentally different from animal DNA and leads to the fundamental difference between the two cells?
In most ways, it's not fundamentally different. It's just DNA. It's the same four bases, it lives in chromosomes packaged by the same proteins (some of which are almost literally the same!), it's read and replicated by the same basic apparatus. The difference is in the details. Some classes of genes are unique to each group, and others have different members with different sequences.

(Frankly, I would question whether plant and animal cells are "fundamentally" different, too. DNA, RNA, genes, ribosomes, proteins, nuclei, mitochondria, Krebs cycles, phospholipid membranes, more G protein-coupled receptors than anyone can keep track of... down at the molecular level, there may be more similarities than differences between them.)
 
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