Pietism

[FireDragon76]

Yes, it's a Lutheran doctrine but not generally taken to the "my government, right or wrong" extremities, even though in Finland, submission to Governing Authorities as per Romans 13 is still part of the national psyche -- and not just when it comes to taxation , although we do quite willingly and happily pay ours. Finland ranks almost in a class of its own when it comes to public trust in government and political and public institutions: parliament, democracy, parties, police, courts, defence forces, education. Our president's popularity rate (89%) beats even Putin's!

Pietism is about personal freedom and responsibity and therefore seems quite compatible with the values of modern day Finland.



During the Reformation era? Well, Luther didn't set out to establish a wholly new Church of his own. And with the King's, whose interest certainly was not to bring down the old order, hijacking parts of the Reformation to serve his own interests, it was a long, slow process rather than an overnight revolution.



Nice!

Savela would be the House of Clay.

I actually do know some American Laestadians of Finnish origins via my local Finnish Laestadians when they have visited their relatives here. As a somewhat closed group, they tend to seek their partners amongst themselves, so the American young men come here to find a wife, and vice versa. Sweet, I think.

Do these various groups exist within one church? How do Laestadians relate to others in the Lutheran folk church in Finland?

 

[Kalevalatar]

Do these various groups exist within one church? How do Laestadians relate to others in the Lutheran folk church in Finland?

My bad. I should have made it clearer. Yes, the five pietist revivalist movements I mentioned are movements within the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland. There are some movements outside the EVL church, but they are much smaller. As I mentioned, some two-thirds of EVL parishes are home to one or several of these movements, as parishioners, church board members and church employees. I personally know at least two pastors in our parish union who are Laestadians, and unless one knows, safe to say you could not tell them apart from a non-revivalist pastor or a pastor from an Awakened background. They are all under the same episcopal oversight, diocese and bishop.

My family is not active in any of these, but many of our fellow parishers are and we go to the same Mass and attend the same parish events. It's really no different than how some EVL members prefer to support the work of the Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Mission (FELM), while others donate to the Finnish Lutheran Mission (FLM). Or you can support both. The revivalist movements all hold their own hugely popular summer festivals (the Laestadians' Suviseurat is by far the largest with some 80,000 visitors while the Awakened Movements' Herättäjäjuhlat with some 30,000 annual visitors is the 2nd largest summer festival in Finland), have their own mission organizations, supplemental hymnals (Hymns of Zion etc.), own conventicles (like körttiseurat, open to all, no "membership card" required), and some cell groups and house church type of events (held in our parish houses within episcopal oversight).

So basically, we do a lot of things together but side by side with our "mainstream" church functions these movements are doing their own thing too. The friendly division who's who only really comes visible on those occasions when it's time to, say, s/elect a new pastor, for example. Then everyone is championing one of their own, of course.

 

[FireDragon76]

Do Pietists in Finland tend to be theologically conservative? I'm guessing so, but I'd like to understand this more.

 

[Kalevalatar]

Do Pietists in Finland tend to be theologically conservative? I'm guessing so, but I'd like to understand this more.

I'm not a theologian so I don't feel qualified to comment on the theological discussion/debate and possible "battle lines" in the General Synod and in the Bishops' Conference.

However, from casual observation and using myself as a yardstick, it's not that clearcut. While even the liberal wing of the Laestadians are definitely more conservative or at least more legalistic that I am (a Finnish family of eight children is usually a giveway of a Laestadian family as they ban contraception), two Awakened families that I've known for decades seem more liberal than I am, IMO, whereas my old neighbours of the Fifth Revival I'd place to the conservative side, although the Fifth Revival is definitely anti-legalistic. As a lay person, it could be that I can't really separate their political leanings from their theological leanings; we all subscribe to the three Ecumenical Creeds and the Lutheran Confessions, after all. There are well known Finnish pastors who were pietist and rather ardent socialist, so... "it's more complex than that", I suppose.

 

[FireDragon76]

It sounds to me like the Finnish church is more broad and diverse than the ELCA.

 

[Kalevalatar]

It sounds to me like the Finnish church is more broad and diverse than the ELCA.

This is the image I usually use for the the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland: Our churches are and remain the same since the Reformation and what goes on inside our churches remains the same regeradless of time or place: we have but one baptism, one Mass, one liturgy, one Bible, one hymnal, the same set of sacraments and pastors who administer them under same episcopal oversight. One church. You'll get it anywhere in Finland.

Whereas our parish houses and the activities inside them can be as colorful and whatever the congregation wants them to be, reflecting the theological leanings, demography, interests of the (active) parishioners. You can get Metal Masses or Run for Jesus marathons.

Ostrobothnia is Laestadian heartland, Satakunta is the Prayer Movements Heartland. Big city/university town parishes tend to be the most liberal. Suburban parishes usually focus strongly on families and youth activities to reflect their demography. Downtown parishes are usually elderly and single-person household, which does not automatically mean "conservative," bearing in mind that the '60/'70s were a time of political (and theological) radicalism and our retirees are part of that protest generation. The neo-pietist Fifth Revival especially went hand-in-hand with the '60/'70s Left radicalism and is still rather influential in the Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Church. According to the Church Research Institute, many church employees name the Fifth Revival as being influential in their lives; no less than 40% of pastors and deans name the Fifth Revival's Kansan Raamattuseura - Logos Ministries of Finland as their "spiritual home depot."

I apologize if I'm rambling. But these pietist revival movements are so much and so deeply part of our church that I struggle to describe what sets them apart and what possible lines and leanings we have in our church. I guess the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland is similar to the Democratic and Republican parties of the United States in that its a large umbrella under which you have a lot of churches/political sub-ideologies that in the United States would be seperate churches and synods and in Finland seperate political parties.

 

[FireDragon76]

I read more about Laestadianism. It sounds very sectarian and exclusivist (only they have the true faith). How can they exist in the same church?

 

[Kalevalatar]

I read more about Laestadianism. It sounds very sectarian and exclusivist (only they have the true faith). How can they exist in the same church?

I apologize the delay. I didn't want to give you a flyby reply so I took time to consult people more learned than myself.

We exist in the same church because, at the end of the day, we don't disagree on the only thing that matters -- what we believe: faith alone, the Bible, our sacraments. Everything else is adiaphora: to use or not use birth control, watch TV, trousers/skirts, those are lifestyle choices and we go by the Romans 14. Let each one eat, drink, or refrain, as long as they are fully convinced in their own mind they do it in honor of our Lord.

The Laestadians want to stay in the Evangelical Lutheran Church; they are pro-God-installed authority and have a very strict ban against not quitting the Church. From time to time, the bishops sit down with their layman leaders to gauge whether we are still on the same page and whether the Laestadians share the tenets of the church. So far, the bishops have concluded that yes, they indeed do. There is no reason to believe that this would change since the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland is not going to ditch its 500-year-old Lutheran doctrines and the conservative Laestadians are no more likely to do that.

As a rule, the thicker the rule book, the more likely the (religious) group is to get at loggerheads over the interpretation of their rule book and split, and split, and split into smaller groups. The Finnish Conservative Laestadians are no exception. According to Wikipedia, there are väyrysläisyys, pellikkalaisuus, kvaenangenilaisuus, alatalolaisuus, erikiaanit, lundbergilaiset, vanhalalaisuus, hölläläisyys, kinnulalaiset, gröndahlilaisuus (all named after their leader), etc., etc. you get the picture and this just before 1930... Anyway, this tendency for every man to form their own visionary group of Laestadian (named after Lars Levi Laestadius) pietism, may partly explain the Laestadian ban on quitting the "mother church," the ultimate umbrella and glue.

Some Laestadian splinter groups have left the Church over the decades but they are a very, very tiny minority, some few hundred people in total. While the most extremist Conservative Laestadian "the only ones to have true faith" groups probably exists in our Church mindful that the Sacrament of the Altar remains valid even if a wicked "no true faith" priest administered it, most of the Laestadians lead their parish life side by side with us who only have 2.3 children per family. ()

As I mentioned, one of our pastors is a Laestadian. I'm 100% certain that when he goes to baptize a child, the young family will have no idea and no clue of his background and why should they? When it comes to his personal life and family, no doubt he does lead a more (religiously) disciplined life than I do, then again, not unlike my disciplined sportswoman's healthy lifestyle (for my God-given own & only body), if you get my drift. We both do it to honor our Lord. Our Archbishop's former adviser on (no less than) theology was a Laestadian. He was then elected as a vicar of a southwestern semi-urban parish outside the Laestadian heartland. Could be future Archbishop candidate. Just to give you an example how even the Conservative Laestadians are part & parcel of our church.

 

[FireDragon76]

But I have heard former Laestadians say that Laestadians believe if you are not a Laestadian, your soul is lost. Sounds sort of sectarian:

An Examination of the Pearl: A study of Conservative Laestadian Lutheran Christianity

So I'm a bit confused.

I remember watching a movie called Babette's Feast about pietists in Jutland and while they seemed to lived very religiously devoted lives, they accept a Catholic refugee and don't seem particularly judgmental of her as a person (there's a character on our TV show, The Simpsons, named Ned Flanders, that reminds me of this type of mindset. Even though the show pokes fun of his religiosity, his goodness is seldom questioned, whereas the character named Homer is often portrayed as being a real scoundrel).

It's interesting that my pastor recommended Babette's Feast as an example of "bad" religion, but I didn't think it was nearly as pharisaical or dark as some conservative American evangelicals. Perhaps pietism is different from our Anglophone Puritanism? Perhaps some Lutherans have a warped perception of pietism because they are hypercritical of perceived deviations from orthodoxy?

 

[Kalevalatar]

But I have heard former Laestadians say that Laestadians believe if you are not a Laestadian, your soul is lost. Sounds sort of sectarian:

An Examination of the Pearl: A study of Conservative Laestadian Lutheran Christianity

So I'm a bit confused.

I remember watching a movie called Babette's Feast about pietists in Jutland and while they seemed to lived very religiously devoted lives, they accept a Catholic refugee and don't seem particularly judgmental of her as a person (there's a character on our TV show, The Simpsons, named Ned Flanders, that reminds me of this type of mindset. Even though the show pokes fun of his religiosity, his goodness is seldom questioned, whereas the character named Homer is often portrayed as being a real scoundrel).

It's interesting that my pastor recommended Babette's Feast as an example of "bad" religion, but I didn't think it was nearly as pharisaical or dark as some conservative American evangelicals. Perhaps pietism is different from our Anglophone Puritanism? Perhaps some Lutherans have a warped perception of pietism because they are hypercritical of perceived deviations from orthodoxy?

 

[Kalevalatar]

But I have heard former Laestadians say that Laestadians believe if you are not a Laestadian, your soul is lost. Sounds sort of sectarian:

An Examination of the Pearl: A study of Conservative Laestadian Lutheran Christianity

So I'm a bit confused.

You are not alone. As I noted, I had to consult people more learned that I myself, as I can't quite fathom this myself. The bottom line is, however, for "them" and "us", as long as the the Word of God is rightly preached and the Sacraments rightly administered, the rest is nonconsequential.

For you, I strongly recommend (if I haven't before) Klaus Härö's Letters to Father Jakob.