CM, just to be clear, I'm not advocating lawlessness. It seems like many times those who would defend pietism believe that the only alternative is antinomianism.
Understood.
Agreed. It seems, though, that pietists believe that they are doing these works in order to gain favor with God instead of doing them for the good of their neighbor. God doesn't need our good works but our neighbor does.
I don't see any evidence in early Lutheran pietism that would support the notion that they taught good works gained favor from the Lord. It's precisely that accusation that I am against. I simply can't agree that this is what pietism ever stood for.
The old Adam is drowned in our baptism, and as we daily return to the new life given to us in our baptism.
Of course.
[Assuming you meant "they do not have the marks ...]Which is why there are specific steps outlined in scripture on church discipline. These actions are to take place within the ministry of the church, not by individuals. It is the vocation of the pastor and elders to administer discipline, always with the goal of restoration of the one struggling in unrepentant, public sin and unbelief.
That's way off where I think this discussion needs to go. It's not about Church discipline, because you gotta be attending church in the first place to submit to it. If you are baptized but not attending anyway- it pretty much proves the point I made in the beginning.
No, not to be content with his sin, that would be antinomian. But it's not just that we are always capable of sinning, but that we exist as justified sinners. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. In this life, sin is inevitable and inescapable. That does not mean that we should tolerate our sin or be content in sin, we should hate our sin and pray for deliverance and mercy. But victory over sin is not within our grasp outside of the cross. That's why the primary use of the law is to show us our sinfulness and drive us to the cross, because there is no victory over sin outside of the alien righteousness of Christ.
Agreed.
The presence of the Spirit does give us a way of conquering sin, but that is only by driving us to the only place victory over sin can be found - in the cross of Christ.
Ummm...I think that kind of is bit watered down. The Spirit changes us, it does not just remind us of the Cross. Yes, all the work is on the cross, but the Spirit does more than give us doctrines to assent to.
Being aware of the battle doth not mean victory over sin by our sheer force of will or mental discipline. Being aware of the battle means making use of the armor of God, the shield of faith and the sword of the Spirit, the Word. These are only available to us through Word and Sacrament, not by our own force of will.
Agreed.
I don't know if early Luther may have believed in progressive sanctification or not, though it wouldn't surprise me since it took him quite a while to set aside completely many of his monastic proclivities, but I think you would be hard pressed to show from his later works and the Lutheran confessions a teaching that would support progress towards holiness. Progressive sanctification is foreign to Lutheran theology, and Christian Perfectionism is an outright heresy.
I think there is a terminology question here. The scriptures clearly teach growth in holiness- a progress in sanctification. If you have some kind of problem with the term "progressive sanctification", then call it what you are comfortable with, but it is scriptural.
Exactly, but make sure you are reading this as the alien righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and not a righteousness gained by us through the avoidance of obvious sins.
Christ's righteousness imputed to us is only one part of the discussion on soteriology. While one will not
gain righteousness by avoiding sin, one certainly won't avoid sin without the indwelling Spirit to begin with. The righteous will avoid sin, the unrighteous will not. While I understand many modern day Lutherans reject any notion of the possibility of a holy life, the early Lutherans, including Luther, certainly taught it. The real issue is how one becomes holy. I say it is by faith. Not only is justification by faith, so is sanctification. But both justification and sanctification have obvious results in the believer. Lives change. Desires change. Faith begins to bring forth good works, "which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph 2:10)
It's worth remembering the words of Luther, cited in the Confessions:
"For, as Dr. Luther writes in the Preface to St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans: Thus faith is a divine work in us, that changes us and regenerates us of God, and puts to death the old Adam, makes us entirely different men in heart, spirit, mind, and all powers, and brings with it [confers] the Holy Ghost. Oh, it is a living, busy, active, powerful thing that we have in faith, so that it is impossible for it not to do good without ceasing. Nor does it ask whether good works are to be done; but before the question is asked, it has wrought them, and is always engaged in doing them. But he who does not do such works is void of faith, and gropes and looks about after faith and good works, and knows neither what faith nor what good works are, yet babbles and prates with many words concerning faith and good works. [Justifying] faith is a living, bold [firm] trust in God's grace, so certain that a man would die a thousand times for it [rather than suffer this trust to be wrested from him]. And this trust and knowledge of divine grace renders joyful, fearless, and cheerful towards God and all creatures, which [joy and cheerfulness] the Holy Ghost works through faith; and on account of this, man becomes ready and cheerful, without coercion, to do good to every one, to serve every one, and to suffer everything for love and praise to God, who has conferred this grace on him, so that it is impossible to separate works from faith, yea, just as impossible as it is for heat and light to be separated from fire." (FoC, SD, IV, 10ff)
So while we both would agree that works follow faith, Luther speaks of the change of heart wrought by faith that propels us to good works, which Christians have been foreordained to do (in other words, it's why we are still here after our justification and not just rushed up to Heaven)
I think a lot of seriously theological people get so focused on the doctrine and process that they forget about the lifestyle. I did it for years. As Luther said: "
Beware of Satan! He detains with unnecessary things, once gaining an entrance will fill you with useless questions." I think in this spirit did pietism arise, but like all theology it suffers from the pendulum that swings between extremes. You gotta keep balanced.
