Pietism

[Tallguy88]

Hey guys!

I've heard the term Pietism on these boards. From looking on Wikipedia, it seems that it was a movement within Lutheranism in the 17th century. However, the article wasn't very in-depth about it. So my questions are:

1. What is Pietism?
2. Is it considered a good thing?
3. Is it still practiced within modern Lutheranism?

 

[Tangible]

try this for starters Steadfast Lutherans » Confessional Lutherans for Christ’s Commission: Pietism v.s. Piety, by Kari Anderson the comments below the essay are good too, but some of them involve LCMS inside baseball.

 

[solarflare]

1. What is Pietism?

Basically it's an inner need to go back a couple of steps towards the law and away from the proper church structure. Preached pure gospel seems somewhat not touching enough for a pietist.

2. Is it considered a good thing?

Not among the orthodox lutherans. That being said, some orthodox lutheran theologians were friends with the pietists a couple of centuries ago and didn't take a serious view enough on their doctrine.

3. Is it still practiced within modern Lutheranism?

Yes. It offers a framework in some difficult apostasy situations where you've a lutheran church in name only but no formed orthodox lutheran congregation whatsoever near you. Then you just basically decide that it's ok to stay in the fallen church if you have enough friends in your local pietist group that seems and feels like a congregation.

 

[ContraMundum]

Hey guys!

I've heard the term Pietism on these boards. From looking on Wikipedia, it seems that it was a movement within Lutheranism in the 17th century. However, the article wasn't very in-depth about it. So my questions are:

1. What is Pietism?

As a movement (originating in Lutheranism) it was a reaction against the dead orthodoxy of the Lutheran Church of its day which had become doctrinaire and Biblicist and was pumping out nominal Christians by the baptism.

As a movement it has been demonized by many in the modern Church, few who have actually bothered to read its sources. A cursory read of Pia Desideria or True Christianity will not lead you to believe in works salvation, despite the bad press it gets from American Lutherans who are constantly being pushed towards and lured into extremes.

It went too far, according to many, but the core theology is quite sane ( by and large) in calling people to actually do something with their faith, rather than rest on their mental assent to the theology of the Reformation. There were extremes, but critics say that this kind of dilemma is built into Lutheran theology, and is an easy path to get on.

2. Is it considered a good thing?

If it gets you out of your chair and on your knees its great. If you start relying on your actions as means of grace, its error. Real simple.

3. Is it still practiced within modern Lutheranism?

Yes. I used to be involved with a very anti-Pietistic Lutheran church....which turned out was really pietist in action and lifestyle. Jakob Spener had a point, and I think I agree with him.

 

[ContraMundum]

try this for starters Steadfast Lutherans » Confessional Lutherans for Christ’s Commission: Pietism v.s. Piety, by Kari Anderson the comments below the essay are good too, but some of them involve LCMS inside baseball.

"Pietists live their life “doing” much the same sort of things, serving the neighbor, being good citizens, etc, but they look at themselves and say, “I’ve been good today."

That article is pretty...well....unfair to the original pietist writings. No where do those old authors say that you can assure yourself that you have "done well" or are saved if you visit your neighbor etc, as that article claims. (I would point out to the author that ironically, the Apostles tell us that we "do well" when we do works of charity. Is there something wrong with accepting their assurance?)

 

[Tallguy88]

As a movement (originating in Lutheranism) it was a reaction against the dead orthodoxy of the Lutheran Church of its day which had become doctrinaire and Biblicist and was pumping out nominal Christians by the baptism.

As a movement it has been demonized by many in the modern Church, few who have actually bothered to read its sources. A cursory read of Pia Desideria or True Christianity will not lead you to believe in works salvation, despite the bad press it gets from American Lutherans who are constantly being pushed towards and lured into extremes.

It went too far, according to many, but the core theology is quite sane ( by and large) in calling people to actually do something with their faith, rather than rest on their mental assent to the theology of the Reformation. There were extremes, but critics say that this kind of dilemma is built into Lutheran theology, and is an easy path to get on.



If it gets you out of your chair and on your knees its great. If you start relying on your actions as means of grace, its error. Real simple.



Yes. I used to be involved with a very anti-Pietistic Lutheran church....which turned out was really pietist in action and lifestyle. Jakob Spener had a point, and I think I agree with him.

This was the kind of answer I was looking for! Is it kinda like Methodism is to Anglicanism? I get that impression.

Thanks!

 

[solarflare]

As a movement (originating in Lutheranism) it was a reaction against the dead orthodoxy of the Lutheran Church of its day which had become doctrinaire and Biblicist and was pumping out nominal Christians by the baptism.

What makes you to say that the lutheran orthodoxy was “dead”?

How do you know that they weren't real christians?

 

[ContraMundum]

This was the kind of answer I was looking for! Is it kinda like Methodism is to Anglicanism? I get that impression.

Thanks!

Exactly. In fact, Lutheran Pietists (Moravians) preached assurance and faith to John Wesley and that was a pivotal point in changing his life, which encouraged him to seek his own faith and find a living Christ that sets a heart aflame. Luther also had a part in it (through the reading of his Preface to Romans), as Luther very much taught a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. The early Lutheran Pietists taught this same doctrine of personal faith and conversion.

 

[ContraMundum]

What makes you to say that the lutheran orthodoxy was “dead”?

It's not a secret. In fact, even the successors of the Gnesio-Lutherans were aware of this imbalance. Even later Lutherans (such as 19thC Scandinavians who you should know about) were very well aware that the state church system was breeding nominal Christians.

How do you know that they weren't real christians?

I don't think I made that kind of generalization. There was a dead orthodoxy, that is not to say all Lutherans had no faith at that time. That is not what anyone is saying.

I find your astonishment at that rather amazing, particularly coming from where you come from, where many people are happy to be called Lutheran and Christian but live like there is no God at all! This is the kind of "nominal Christianity" that the early pietists were reacting against. The genius of the doctrine of the Reformation is that it makes an emphasis on personal faith and trust in the Saviour as the only means of justification. I think a lot of Christians attending or who are members of Churches from the Reformation forget that. Hence, you have a state churches claiming millions on the membership roles but with empty pews most of the year. That is not much different to Catholicism.

 

[Tangible]

As evidenced by ContraMundum's posts, pietism is all about playing God and deciding who is a real Christian and who is a nominal Christian based on outward appearances. Pietism looks inward at the self for assurance of salvation when our sinful selves is where the problem is in the first place. Pietism inevitably leads to two errors, pride in self and judgement of others, or despair over sins one is unable to overcome by force of will - often both errors at once.

Pietism is a plague, and is the root of everything that has gone wrong in all branches of Christianity today. It is the natural, works-based religion of the Old Man dressed up in Christian piety.

 

[alexnbethmom]

i've always held that pietism is equivalent to the attitude of "holier-than-thou, bertha better-than-you"....

 

[ContraMundum]

As evidenced by ContraMundum's posts, pietism is all about playing God and deciding who is a real Christian and who is a nominal Christian based on outward appearances. Pietism looks inward at the self for assurance of salvation when our sinful selves is where the problem is in the first place. Pietism inevitably leads to two errors, pride in self and judgement of others, or despair over sins one is unable to overcome by force of will - often both errors at once.

Pietism is a plague, and is the root of everything that has gone wrong in all branches of Christianity today. It is the natural, works-based religion of the Old Man dressed up in Christian piety.

Not sure who taught you that seeking personal faith is "playing God" or that God does not assure His children of salvation through His ordained means. Likewise, if you think it is ok to claim Christ but live like the Devil and still expect to be regarded as a Christian, then I think you misunderstand your own theology. The words of Jesus are particularly telling on this matter, and He is not wrong.

Love to debate you on that (as Luther clearly believed in seeking personal faith) Think about it of you want to debate the issue with me. There are sub-forums for that here at CF.

 

[ContraMundum]

i've always held that pietism is equivalent to the attitude of "holier-than-thou, bertha better-than-you"....

You don't need to be a pietist to be that arrogant, right? It's not like they have the sole rights to being smug.

 

[alexnbethmom]

You don't need to be a pietist to be that arrogant, right? It's not like they have the sole rights to being smug.

absolutely true....right you are!!

 

[Mark_Sam]

Pietism is the reason why we only celebrate the Lord's Supper once a month at my church, rather than every week. And that's not a good thing ...

 

[solarflare]

I find your astonishment at that rather amazing, particularly coming from where you come from, where many people are happy to be called Lutheran and Christian but live like there is no God at all!

I know that very well. Pietism doesn't help it at all. It pretty much guarantees that the orthodox congregations will not form ever again in here. Or if they do, no one will be interested.

During the time of “dead” orthodoxy we had churches full of people. Now, when we've been liberated from that, almost no one attends. And those who do, are most likely pietists.

I'd much rather have it the “dead” orthodox lutheran way.

 

[ContraMundum]

I know that very well. Pietism doesn't help it at all. It pretty much guarantees that the orthodox congregations will not form ever again in here. Or if they do, no one will be interested.

I agree with that. But people in your neck of the woods don't seem interested in the old orthodoxy either. Ask a local why they don't like church. It's not because they reject pietism. They don't even know what that means.

During the time of “dead” orthodoxy we had churches full of people.

...and churches which did not survive the onslaught of liberal theology and higher criticism- which was a reaction to the opposite extreme.

Now, when we've been liberated from that, almost no one attends. And those who do, are most likely pietists.

Lucky you have pietists then! What are complaining about? By such reasoning you would have no one at all without them!

I'd much rather have it the “dead” orthodox lutheran way.

I'd rather have all things in scriptural balance. True Christianity is not just about doctrine and learning catechisms- it's a living faith. It's talking to God like a Father etc. Surely you would agree.

 

[solarflare]

Ask a local why they don't like church. It's not because they reject pietism. They don't even know what that means.

They don't need to know it in theory. They already know it in practice. Their local pietist oriented woman pastor who is well educated on the higher criticism in the Theological Faculty of the University of Helsinki will fill in the gaps pretty effectively. So nowadays finns seem to be more interested about personal relationships in general, sexual equality and so forth.

 

[ContraMundum]

They don't need to know it in theory. They already know it in practice. Their local pietist oriented woman pastor who is well educated on the higher criticism in the Theological Faculty of the University of Helsinki will fill in the gaps pretty effectively. So nowadays finns seem to be more interested about personal relationships in general, sexual equality and so forth.

OK....interesting. I'd love to know more. Pm me.

 

[solarflare]

OK....interesting. I'd love to know more.

My point is that pietism then is different from pietism now. Pietism here is different from pietism there. It adapts very well into its environment.