Physical Presence/Ascension

[Daniel9v9]

My church is casual and contemporary and I like it very much. Our sermons are parts of a series, we have screens with the lyrics to the songs, our band often sings contemporary Christian music and when they don’t, the songs sound contemporary with drums, electric guitar etc.
Our last sermon/series was on movies of the 80’s. They showed clips of the movies and then relate them to the Bible and our lives. It’s not like one other Lutheran church I visited that seemed very much like a Catholic Mass.

Ah, right. I've spent many years in contemporary churches, so I can see the appeal in one sense. However, these kinds of services are a little unusual and perhaps somewhat controversial among orthodox Lutherans, because there is great value in the orthodox liturgy. But as long as the pastor holds to and teaches the sound doctrine he's been taught, I think you're in good hands, and there is certainly no need to question his ordination or his concentration of the Eucharist.

So again, what you’re saying is that the priest or pastor doesn’t have the power or authority to consecrate the Eucharist, himself, the power comes from the three persons in God, right? The Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Do they just say the words and God changes the bread and wine?

Yes, that's right. God's grace is communicated through His Word and Sacraments by His own power, and is proclaimed and administered by the Church.

 

[FaithT]

Ah, right. I've spent many years in contemporary churches, so I can see the appeal in one sense. However, these kinds of services are a little unusual and perhaps somewhat controversial among orthodox Lutherans, because there is great value in the orthodox liturgy. But as long as the pastor holds to and teaches the sound doctrine he's been taught, I think you're in good hands, and there is certainly no need to question his ordination or his concentration of the Eucharist.



Yes, that's right. God's grace is communicated through His Word and Sacraments by His own power, and is proclaimed and administered by the Church.

Honestly,if the services weren’t contemporary, they’d remind me of Catholicism.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Honestly,if the services weren’t contemporary, they’d remind me of Catholicism.

I can appreciate that. I don't think a contemporary style is a problem in and of itself, provided God's Word is rightly preached and the Sacraments rightly administered. I have confidence in LCMS abilities to do that.

 

[FaithT]

I can appreciate that. I don't think a contemporary style is a problem in and of itself, provided God's Word is rightly preached and the Sacraments rightly administered. I have confidence in LCMS abilities to do that.

They must be doing something right because the head pastor has been there for, maybe, 30 years or close to that.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Lutherans believe Jesus ascended physically into heaven and Angel's said He would return in like manner but yet you guys believe in His physical presence in the Supper. How does that work?

We don't explain how it works. Because we don't know.

Instead we confess and believe what Christ Himself has said, He says it's His body and blood, and so it is, and we believe that. Jesus means what He says, so yes the bread and wine is really Christ's flesh and blood.

The closest we get to "explaining" it is by speaking of the "Sacramental Union", which is more analogy than an explanation. In the same way that Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully human without any confusion or separation, so the Eucharist is both simple bread and wine, and it is also the true and actual flesh and blood of Jesus. Note that we are not explaining how it is, but rather expressing with faith what it is. We also speak of Christ's flesh and blood being received "in, with, and under" the bread and wine.

It is, fundamentally, an unexplainable mystery of faith. But we already know that Christ is He who fills all things (Ephesians 1:23), how can human flesh "fill all things"? Well, we know that He is not just flesh, He is truly God. But we do not separate the natures, but confess the undivided Person--and it truly is the One Person of Christ who fills all things, thus a man fills everything. How? We don't know. But it should not, therefore, be any difficulty to confess the pure word of Jesus Christ, that this bread and wine is Him, it's His very flesh and blood. He who was conceived, born, lived, suffered, died, rose, ascended, reigns at the right hand of God, fills all things, and will return in glory one day--He is there, fully present, physically, tangibly, truly present in, with, and under the bread and wine. For here is the One undivided God-Man, Jesus Christ, in our midst, for us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BreadAlone]

To the OP: We answer these questions in one of our Communion Hymns:

Lord Jesus Christ, You have prepared
This feast for our salvation;
It is Your body and Your blood,
And at Your invitation
As weary souls, with sin oppressed,
We come to You for needed rest,
For comfort, and for pardon.

2 Although You did to Heav’n ascend,
Where angel hosts are dwelling,
And in Your presence they behold
Your glory, all excelling,
And though Your people shall not see
Your glory and Your majesty
Till dawns the judgment morning.

3 Yet, Savior, You are not confined
To any habitation;
But You are present even now
Here with Your congregation.
Firm as a rock this truth shall stand,
Unmoved by any daring hand
Or subtle craft and cunning.

4 We eat this bread and drink this cup,
Your precious Word believing
That Your true body and Your blood
Our lips are here receiving.
This word remains forever true,
All things are possible with You,
For You are Lord Almighty.

5 Though reason cannot understand,
Yet faith this truth embraces;
Your body, Lord, is even now
At once in many places.
I leave to You how this can be;
Your Word alone suffices me;
I trust its truth unfailing.

6 Lord, I believe what You have said;
Help me when doubts assail me.
Remember that I am but dust,
And let my faith not fail me.
Your Supper in this vale of tears
Refreshes me and stills my fears
And is my priceless treasure.

7 Grant that we worthily receive
Your Supper, Lord, our Savior,
And, truly grieving o’er our sins,
May prove by our behavior
That we are thankful for Your grace
And day by day may run our race,
In holiness increasing.

8 For Your consoling supper, Lord,
Be praised throughout all ages!
Preserve it, for in ev'ry place
The world against it rages.
Grant that this sacrament may be
A blessèd comfort unto me
When living and when dying.

 

[BreadAlone]

They must be doing something right because the head pastor has been there for, maybe, 30 years or close to that.

The Papacy has run the papal church for much longer than that!

Contemporary worship notwithstanding, the Sacramental Union is effected by the Word of God, not some magical power of the priest. And, if you doubt its validity without apostolic succession, please know that all of our pastors have been ordained with the laying on of hands, all the way back to the papal church. And I have done the research to demonstrate that there are papal bulls from the Middle Ages authorizing presbyteral ordination. So even if I entertained that logic, which I do not, we have apostolic succession per the papal understanding. However, even there, one can never be certain if they place their faith in whether or not this or that form of ordination was properly observed, as this recent case from Michigan shows:Invalid baptism of Dearborn priest results in invalid sacramentswww.detroitnews.com › local › michigan › 2020/08/23

This is why we put our trust in the powerful Word of God, not in the power of the man performing the Sacraments. They are Stewards of the Mysteries, but not their Author.

Some final thoughts from the Book of Concord, explaining tithe Sacramental Union:

"This we receive not as common bread and common drink; but as Jesus Christ, our Savior, through the Word of God became flesh, and on account of our salvation also had flesh and blood, so we believe that the food blessed by Him through the Word and prayer is the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ" (FC:SD, VII:39).

"1. We believe, teach, and confess that in the Holy Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and essentially present, and are truly distributed and received with the bread and wine.

2. We believe, teach, and confess that the words of the testament of Christ are not to be understood otherwise than as they read, according to the letter, so that the bread does not signify the absent body and the wine the absent blood of Christ, but that, on account of the sacramental union, they [the bread and wine] are truly the body and blood of Christ.

3. Now, as to the consecration, we believe, teach, and confess that no work of man or recitation of the minister [of the church] produces this presence of the body and blood of Christ in the Holy Supper, but that this is to be ascribed only and alone to the almighty power of our Lord Jesus Christ.

4. But at the same time we also believe, teach, and confess unanimously that in the use of the Holy Supper the words of the institution of Christ should in no way be omitted, but should be publicly recited, as it is written 1 Cor. 10:16: The cup of blessing which we bless, etc. This blessing occurs through the recitation of the words of Christ" (FC:Ep, VII).