Photosynthesis
- Thread starter AV1611VET
- Start date
Those are the original sources - do you really want me to spoon feed you?
Fine.
All bolding mine.
Nutman, et al, 2016:
Here we report evidence for ancient life from a newly exposed outcrop of 3,700-Myr-old metacarbonate rocks in the ISB that contain 1–4-cm-high stromatolites—macroscopically layered structures produced by microbial communities.
...
The ISB stromatolites predate by 220 Myr the previous most convincing and generally accepted multidisciplinary evidence for oldest life remains in the 3,480-Myr-old Dresser Formation of the Pilbara Craton, Australia. The presence of the ISB stromatolites demonstrates theestablishment of shallow marine carbonate production with biotic CO2 sequestration by 3,700 million years ago (Ma), near the start of Earth’s sedimentary record.
...
The recognition of ~ 3,700-Myr-old biogenic stromatolites within Isua dolomites indicates that near the start of the preserved sedimentary record, atmospheric CO2 was being sequestered by biological activity 27 . The complexity and setting of the Isua stromatolites points to sophistication in life systems at 3,700 Ma, similar to that displayed by 3,480–3,400-Myr-old Pilbara stromatolites. This implies that by ~ 3,700 Ma life already had a considerable prehistory, and sup- ports model organism chronology that life arose during the Hadean (> 4,000 Ma)
Noffke, et al, 2013:...
The ISB stromatolites predate by 220 Myr the previous most convincing and generally accepted multidisciplinary evidence for oldest life remains in the 3,480-Myr-old Dresser Formation of the Pilbara Craton, Australia. The presence of the ISB stromatolites demonstrates theestablishment of shallow marine carbonate production with biotic CO2 sequestration by 3,700 million years ago (Ma), near the start of Earth’s sedimentary record.
...
The recognition of ~ 3,700-Myr-old biogenic stromatolites within Isua dolomites indicates that near the start of the preserved sedimentary record, atmospheric CO2 was being sequestered by biological activity 27 . The complexity and setting of the Isua stromatolites points to sophistication in life systems at 3,700 Ma, similar to that displayed by 3,480–3,400-Myr-old Pilbara stromatolites. This implies that by ~ 3,700 Ma life already had a considerable prehistory, and sup- ports model organism chronology that life arose during the Hadean (> 4,000 Ma)
Microbially induced sedimentary structures (MISS) result from the response of microbial mats to physical sediment dynamics. ... The structures record highly diverse communities of microbial mats and have been reported from numerous intervals in the geological record up to 3.2 billion years (Ga) old. This contribution describes a suite of MISS from some of the oldest well-preserved sedimentary rocks in the geological record, the early Archean (ca. 3.48 Ga) Dresser Formation, Western Australia. Outcrop mapping at the meter to millimeter scale defined five sub-environments characteristic of an ancient coastal sabkha. These sub-environments contain associations of distinct macroscopic and microscopic MISS. Macroscopic MISS include polygonal oscillation cracks and gas domes, erosional remnants and pockets, and mat chips. Microscopic MISS comprise tufts, sinoidal structures, and laminae fabrics; the microscopic laminae are composed of primary carbonaceous matter, pyrite, and hematite, plus trapped and bound grains. Identical suites of MISS occur in equivalent environmental settings through the entire subsequent history of Earth including the present time. This work extends the geological record of MISS by almost 300 million years.
Alwood et al, 2009:
The ≈3,450-million-year-old Strelley Pool Formation in Western Australia contains a reef-like assembly of laminated sedimentary accretion structures (stromatolites) that have macroscale characteristics suggestive of biological influence. However, direct microscale evidence of biology—namely, organic microbial remains or biosedimentary fabrics—has to date eluded discovery in the extensively-recrystallized rocks. Recently-identified outcrops with relatively good textural preservation record microscale evidence of primary sedimentary processes, including some that indicate probable microbial mat formation.
Furthermore, we find relict fabrics and organic layers that covary with stromatolite morphology, linking morphologic diversity to changes in sedimentation, seafloor mineral precipitation, and inferred microbial mat development. Thus, the most direct and compelling signatures of life in the Strelley Pool Formation are those observed at the microscopic scale.
By examining spatiotemporal changes in microscale characteristics it is possible not only to recognize the presence of probable microbial mats during stromatolite development, but also to infer aspects of the biological inputs to stromatolite morphogenesis. The persistence of an inferred biological signal through changing environmental circumstances and stromatolite types indicates that benthic microbial populations adapted to shifting environmental conditions in early oceans.
Furthermore, we find relict fabrics and organic layers that covary with stromatolite morphology, linking morphologic diversity to changes in sedimentation, seafloor mineral precipitation, and inferred microbial mat development. Thus, the most direct and compelling signatures of life in the Strelley Pool Formation are those observed at the microscopic scale.
By examining spatiotemporal changes in microscale characteristics it is possible not only to recognize the presence of probable microbial mats during stromatolite development, but also to infer aspects of the biological inputs to stromatolite morphogenesis. The persistence of an inferred biological signal through changing environmental circumstances and stromatolite types indicates that benthic microbial populations adapted to shifting environmental conditions in early oceans.
Not only do we have enough evidence that shows that microscopic life is ~3.7 billion years old, researches are already starting to work out how it evolved.
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Kylie
Defeater of Illogic
Hello...
Please tell me what evidence there is that estasblishes that the events described in the Bible occurred between 1642–1540 BCE, the date of the Thera eruption.
The Exodus account describes several plagues::
- The Nile turning to blood (7:15-24)
- Frogs (8:1-14)
- Lice (8:16-19)
- Flies (8:20-24)
- The death of all the cattle (9:3-6)
- Boils and blains on man and beast (9:8-11)
- Hail (which apparently killed the cattle that had been killed in the fifth plague) (9:18-26)
- Locusts (10:4-15)
- Three days of darkness (10:21-23)
- Death of the firstborn (11:5)
Remember the eruptions of Eyjafjallajökull back in 2010? Caused a whole heap of havoc with air travel. Please show me how that eruption caused plagues of frogs, lice, flies, or locusts. Show me how the eruptions caused rivers to turn to blood, or to cause boils on select groups of people (remember, the Biblical plagues didn't target the Israelites, just the Egyptians).
And apparently the other children didn't starve to death, despite the fact that they weren't eating according to your claim.
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klutedavid
Well-Known Member
Hello Kylie.
Thanks for your interest in this topic, the Thera eruption and the ten plagues.
What is interesting about the Thera eruption is it's size.
The Minoan eruption of Thera, also referred to as the Thera eruption or Santorini eruption, was a major catastrophic volcanic eruption with a Volcanic Explosivity Index (VEI) of 6 or 7 and a dense-rock equivalent (DRE) of 60 km3 (14 cu mi), Dated to the mid-second millennium BCE, the eruption was one of the largest volcanic events on Earth in recorded history. The volcano ejected up to four times as much as the well recorded eruption by Krakatoa in 1883. (wikipedia)
Krakatoa (1883)
The explosion is considered to be the loudest sound ever heard in modern history, with reports of it being heard up to 3,000 miles (4,800 km) from its point of origin. (wikipedia)
Only one eruption in human history is believed to have been larger: an 1815 explosion of Tambora, in Indonesia, which released 24 cubic miles (100 cubic kilometers) of magma. Jelle Zeilinga de Boer, an emeritus professor of geology at Wesleyan University in Middletown, Connecticut, notes that the strength of the eruption also depends on its duration. "We don't know whether this came out in one flow or a number," he said. There is some archaeological evidence, he adds, that people returned to the devastated area and started rebuilding, only to be blasted anew by the next round of activity. Whether it occurred in one large blast or in a series of smaller events, the eruption produced massive devastation. ("Atlantis" Eruption Twice as Big as Previously Believed, Study Suggests)
The Minoan eruption is a key marker for the Bronze Age chronology of the Eastern Mediterranean world. It provides a fixed point for aligning the entire chronology of the second millennium BCE in the Aegean, as evidence of the eruption is found throughout the region. Despite the evidence, the exact date of the eruption has been difficult to determine. Archaeologists have traditionally placed it at approximately 1500 BCE. Radiocarbon dates, including analysis of an olive branch buried beneath a lava flow from the volcano that gave a date between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE (95% confidence interval), suggest an eruption date more than a century earlier than suggested by archaeologists. Thus, the radiocarbon dates and the archaeological dates are in substantial disagreement. (wikipedia)
Dating is difficult due to possible contamination of the samples, an imbedded problem in scientific archaeology.
What we do know is very little with any real precision, i.e., 97% or more confidence interval would be desirable.
Plague 1 Water turned into blood, fish died.
Dr. Stephen Pflugmacher, a biologist at the Leibniz Institute for Water Ecology and Inland Fisheries in Berlin believes that rising temperatures could have turned the Nile into a slow-moving, muddy watercourse—conditions favorable for the spread of toxic fresh water algae. As the alga Planktothrix rubescens dies, it turns the water red in a phenomenon known as "Burgundy Blood". Alternatively, a bloody appearance could be due to an environmental change, such as a drought, which could have contributed to the spread of the Chromatiaceae bacteria which thrive in stagnant, oxygen-deprived water. (Wikipedia)
Ash plume from underwater volcano off Tonga cancels flights and turns sea red.
Tonga residents described a spectacular sight, with the enormous plume from the volcano shooting high into the sky and a muddy discharge underwater turning areas of the sea off the island blood red.
(theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/13/ash-plume-from-underwater-volcano-off-tonga-cancels-flights-and-turns-sea-red)
A very interesting pause in the Exodus text between plague one, life in the Nile extinguished, and the occurrence of the frogs, plague two. The text specifies a seven day seperation between the red Nile and the frogs.
Exodus 7:25
Seven days passed after the Lord had struck the Nile.
This period of time in the text is an overlooked tell tale sign, of a natural sequence in the plagues.
Plague 2 Frogs
Exodus 8:2
But if you refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite your whole territory with frogs.
A very high number of Nile frogs leaving the polluted swamps and reed banks of the Nile, around seven days after the fish die in the Nile. Is exactly what one would expect to occur, the Exodus describes the natural sequence of a catastrophic failure of water life in the Nile delta.
The third plague, lice, could mean either lice, fleas or gnats based on the Hebrew word (Keenim). If a toxic algal bloom led to the first plague, and a pile of dead frogs followed, it's not surprising that a swarm of insects of some sort would have followed. That's because frogs typically eat insects; without them, the fly population could have exploded, Stephan Pflugmacher, a climatologist Leibniz Institute for Water Ecology and Inland Fisheries in Berlin, said in a television special about the plagues that aired on the National Geographic Channel in 2010. Interestingly, both body lice and fleas can theoretically transmit the bacteria Yersinia pestis, which causes bubonic plague, according to a 2010 study published in the journal Emerging Infectious Diseases. If so, then an infestation with lice could have set the stage for the later plagues, such as boils, a 2008 review of plague science found. Scientists have also argued that the sickness that killed the beasts of the field for Egyptians in later plagues might have been Bluetongue or African horse sickness, both of which can be spread by insects from this plague, according to a 2008 Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine.
(livescience.com/58638-science-of-the-10-plagues.html)
Thanks for your interest in this topic, the Thera eruption and the ten plagues.
There has been a hotly contested debate over the dating of the eruption of Thera, which has been running for decades. The date you accept depends on the school you belong to, classical archaeology or scientific archaeology. If science radio dates an olive branch for example to say 1540 BC, then the other side yells, 'the sample is corrupt'. You can be guaranteed the samples are of course corrupt, that goes without saying.
What is interesting about the Thera eruption is it's size.
The Minoan eruption of Thera, also referred to as the Thera eruption or Santorini eruption, was a major catastrophic volcanic eruption with a Volcanic Explosivity Index (VEI) of 6 or 7 and a dense-rock equivalent (DRE) of 60 km3 (14 cu mi), Dated to the mid-second millennium BCE, the eruption was one of the largest volcanic events on Earth in recorded history. The volcano ejected up to four times as much as the well recorded eruption by Krakatoa in 1883. (wikipedia)
Krakatoa (1883)
The explosion is considered to be the loudest sound ever heard in modern history, with reports of it being heard up to 3,000 miles (4,800 km) from its point of origin. (wikipedia)
Only one eruption in human history is believed to have been larger: an 1815 explosion of Tambora, in Indonesia, which released 24 cubic miles (100 cubic kilometers) of magma. Jelle Zeilinga de Boer, an emeritus professor of geology at Wesleyan University in Middletown, Connecticut, notes that the strength of the eruption also depends on its duration. "We don't know whether this came out in one flow or a number," he said. There is some archaeological evidence, he adds, that people returned to the devastated area and started rebuilding, only to be blasted anew by the next round of activity. Whether it occurred in one large blast or in a series of smaller events, the eruption produced massive devastation. ("Atlantis" Eruption Twice as Big as Previously Believed, Study Suggests)
The Minoan eruption is a key marker for the Bronze Age chronology of the Eastern Mediterranean world. It provides a fixed point for aligning the entire chronology of the second millennium BCE in the Aegean, as evidence of the eruption is found throughout the region. Despite the evidence, the exact date of the eruption has been difficult to determine. Archaeologists have traditionally placed it at approximately 1500 BCE. Radiocarbon dates, including analysis of an olive branch buried beneath a lava flow from the volcano that gave a date between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE (95% confidence interval), suggest an eruption date more than a century earlier than suggested by archaeologists. Thus, the radiocarbon dates and the archaeological dates are in substantial disagreement. (wikipedia)
Dating is difficult due to possible contamination of the samples, an imbedded problem in scientific archaeology.
What we do know is very little with any real precision, i.e., 97% or more confidence interval would be desirable.
Plague 1 Water turned into blood, fish died.
Dr. Stephen Pflugmacher, a biologist at the Leibniz Institute for Water Ecology and Inland Fisheries in Berlin believes that rising temperatures could have turned the Nile into a slow-moving, muddy watercourse—conditions favorable for the spread of toxic fresh water algae. As the alga Planktothrix rubescens dies, it turns the water red in a phenomenon known as "Burgundy Blood". Alternatively, a bloody appearance could be due to an environmental change, such as a drought, which could have contributed to the spread of the Chromatiaceae bacteria which thrive in stagnant, oxygen-deprived water. (Wikipedia)
Ash plume from underwater volcano off Tonga cancels flights and turns sea red.
Tonga residents described a spectacular sight, with the enormous plume from the volcano shooting high into the sky and a muddy discharge underwater turning areas of the sea off the island blood red.
(theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/13/ash-plume-from-underwater-volcano-off-tonga-cancels-flights-and-turns-sea-red)
A very interesting pause in the Exodus text between plague one, life in the Nile extinguished, and the occurrence of the frogs, plague two. The text specifies a seven day seperation between the red Nile and the frogs.
Exodus 7:25
Seven days passed after the Lord had struck the Nile.
This period of time in the text is an overlooked tell tale sign, of a natural sequence in the plagues.
Plague 2 Frogs
Exodus 8:2
But if you refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite your whole territory with frogs.
A very high number of Nile frogs leaving the polluted swamps and reed banks of the Nile, around seven days after the fish die in the Nile. Is exactly what one would expect to occur, the Exodus describes the natural sequence of a catastrophic failure of water life in the Nile delta.
The third plague, lice, could mean either lice, fleas or gnats based on the Hebrew word (Keenim). If a toxic algal bloom led to the first plague, and a pile of dead frogs followed, it's not surprising that a swarm of insects of some sort would have followed. That's because frogs typically eat insects; without them, the fly population could have exploded, Stephan Pflugmacher, a climatologist Leibniz Institute for Water Ecology and Inland Fisheries in Berlin, said in a television special about the plagues that aired on the National Geographic Channel in 2010. Interestingly, both body lice and fleas can theoretically transmit the bacteria Yersinia pestis, which causes bubonic plague, according to a 2010 study published in the journal Emerging Infectious Diseases. If so, then an infestation with lice could have set the stage for the later plagues, such as boils, a 2008 review of plague science found. Scientists have also argued that the sickness that killed the beasts of the field for Egyptians in later plagues might have been Bluetongue or African horse sickness, both of which can be spread by insects from this plague, according to a 2008 Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine.
(livescience.com/58638-science-of-the-10-plagues.html)
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PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
Biggest problem with the biblical plagues: the lack of documentation of them outside of the bible. Some people argue that the Egyptians would try to hide it, but that doesn't exactly cover the fact that there would have been travelling merchants of various peoples that would have been present to witness at least one of the plagues before they hightailed it out of there. These people wouldn't have any motivation not to talk about these events. Furthermore, I think neighboring kingdoms would have been very interested in one of their rivals being weakened via divine retribution.
Furthermore, Egyptian citizens weren't forced to stay as if they were prisoners. The moment there wasn't any water to be had, people would have left in droves. The bible says nothing of this.
Furthermore, Egyptian citizens weren't forced to stay as if they were prisoners. The moment there wasn't any water to be had, people would have left in droves. The bible says nothing of this.
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klutedavid
Well-Known Member
Hello Sarah.
Interesting argument you proposed.
Interesting argument you proposed.
Whether there are additional accounts outside of the Exodus account, is more a matter for those interested in the history of Israel. The Exodus account ultimately can indeed be true, regardless of whether any supporting evidence exists.
If the eruption of Thera was as intense as claimed, then other civilizations around the Mediterranean would also have been in strife. This was not a local event, the ash cloud may have even affected civilizations around the world.
The Exodus account does not say that the Nile was dead permanently, the Nile river may have returned to life shortly after.
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Kylie
Defeater of Illogic
Let's see if you can answer me with something other than a cut and paste job, shall we?
Irrelevant to my question. Show me the evidence that shows that the eruption of Thera is responsible for the plagues described in Exodus.
I don't give a rats about the size, I'm asking you to show me evidence that the plagues in Exodus were caused by this particular eruption.
Once again, this is not answering my question.
Why are you waffling on about Krakatoa? Answer my question, don't try to change the subject.
I swear, you're worse than a politician.
Why are you wasting my time? You have not even come close to answering my question.
I believe I already covered the dating range of the eruption in my own post. I don't need you to tell me stuff I already know, I need you to actually answer my question.
Answer my quesation. What evidence do you have that links the Thera eruption with the plagues described in Genesis.
You have completely wasted my time here.
I asked you to show me the evidence that shows that the eruption of Thera was responsible for the plagues described in Exodus. You went waffling on about how they figured out the date of the eruption and how it still had some uncertainty.
You did NOT show at any point how your claim that the eruption took place at the same time as the plagues in Exodus was justifiable, which was my actual question.
The Bible doesn't say it was red, it says it was BLOOD.
As AV is so fond of saying, the Bible says it, that settles it.
And it is completely irrelevant to my question.
Show me how this period of a week is an important part of the natural sequence of a plague.
Why would the frogs wait a whole week after their food source had vanished?
Besides, with all those dead fish, I would expect there to be lots of birds around for the easy food. Why were not the frogs also eaten in this week before they decided to move out?
Where in the Bible does it say the plague of frogs was a plague of DEAD frogs?
If it was the lice/fleas/whatever transmitting bubonic plague to cause the various ailments that afflicted the Egyptians, why did it not also infect the Israelites?
And you have not explained how the other plagues were caused by an eruption. How did the eruption cause a plague of hail? Of locusts? Death of the firstborn of the Egyptian families?
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PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
Yet, there is the matter of how LIKELY an event happened when there is only 1 text recording it. The more extraordinary the event, the more likely multiple people are to record it. The grander in scale the event, the more likely it is to leave behind physical evidence. Despite how extraordinary the events in Exodus are, there aren't any other records of it, and no physical evidence left behind. There's no legitimate reason to think these events actually took place.
This eruption left significant physical evidence behind, which is why we know it happened despite a lack of clear documentation of it (though, some texts are thought to allude to it). The events in Exodus are too large in impact not to leave some lasting evidence behind, and yet, they don't.
-_- I never suggested that Exodus said any of the plagues would last indefinitely. However, the death of the Pharaoh as well as every first born child in Egypt that wasn't Jewish by itself would warrant documentation. Even people that couldn't write would have spoken about it for generations. Chances are, the Egyptian empire wouldn't have even survived the blow of that plague alone. Yet, there is nothing, no record outside of the bible, no tombs filled with the first born children of Egypt with no outward cause of death. No evidence of the many Jews that wandered the desert. Not only that, but the bible claims such a high number of Hebrew slaves as to make it demonstrably impossible for the region to support them, let alone them in addition to the non-slaves.
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