Photography (Weddings) Business and Homosexual Agenda

[gym_class_hero]

maybe she should make it a written policy that she meets with each couple before committing to shooting their wedding. If it turns out to be a gay couple, she can advise them later she is "unavailable" for that date. She is unavailable as it violates her principles. She doesn't have to give anyone a reason why she is "unavailable."

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Botch the job. If they can't prove you did it intentionally, you owe them a refund, and nothing more.

 

[hedrick]

Has anyone actually looked at the legal situation in the state in which the person resides? The laws that could cause problems are public accommodations laws. These identify certain businesses that can't discriminate. They also define types of discrimination that are prohibited. Apparently New Mexico considers photographers as public accommodations, and protects sexual orientation. But not all states do. There is no Federal mandate that would force them to.

The primary non-discrimination law in Michigan is the Elliott-Larsen Civil Rights Act. It does not include protection for sexual orientation. One state agency currently proposes to add it by interpretation, but it's not clear that it would succeed, since the legislature intentionally omitted it. I think as time goes on, protections are likely to be broadened, but at this moment it doesn't appear to me that there's any legal issue in Michigan.

There are, however, some cities in Michigan that have their own laws that do provide protection for gays.

 

[Zoii]

Botch the job. If they can't prove you did it intentionally, you owe them a refund, and nothing more.

Truly - you would ask someone to intentionally sabotage someones wedding photos, affecting the reputation of the company, and greatly upsetting the couple marrying. If as Christians we cannot be honest in our dealings, then we have no better moral standing than the homosexual couple being disapproved of.

 

[Zoii]

Has anyone actually looked at the legal situation in the state in which the person resides? The laws that could cause problems are public accommodations laws. These identify certain businesses that can't discriminate. They also define types of discrimination that are prohibited. Apparently New Mexico considers photographers as public accommodations, and protects sexual orientation. But not all states do. There is no Federal mandate that would force them to.

The primary non-discrimination law in Michigan is the Elliott-Larsen Civil Rights Act. It does not include protection for sexual orientation. One state agency currently proposes to add it by interpretation, but it's not clear that it would succeed, since the legislature intentionally omitted it. I think as time goes on, protections are likely to be broadened, but at this moment it doesn't appear to me that there's any legal issue in Michigan.

Which is why communication is so important. Look - lets say you are a black american and you go to a photographer known to be a member of the KKK.....youd probably not really want the company to do the job.


If a company clearly indicates it is a christian ethic company then in all likelihood the gay couple would seek out a company sympathetic to their marriage. And companies do this by placing a rainbow symbol in their advertising. But even if they are still approached. Be friendly and as helpful as possible finding them someone who is a high quality reliable gay friendly photographer. Show them your own ideas for photography and leave them feeling that - hey they might come back to you when its not about a wedding because you're good people.

 

[hedrick]

maybe she should make it a written policy that she meets with each couple before committing to shooting their wedding. If it turns out to be a gay couple, she can advise them later she is "unavailable" for that date. She is unavailable as it violates her principles. She doesn't have to give anyone a reason why she is "unavailable."

That's called lying. I wouldn't advise a Christian to start a business based on an expectation that they'd like to customers or give intentionally bad service. It's a bad witness.

 

[Monksailor]

Jesus said some words that apply to this situation.

Matt 5:39-41
39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.

41 "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
NASU

To follow these words of Christ in that situation, take GREAT pictures, throw in some freebies.

You must balance Sermon on the Mount Idealism with the PRACTICAL instructions of Jesus given just a few chapters later when He was sending His beloved disciples out on missionary journeys. Note first that He told them to be SELECTIVE with who they preached the Gospel (Matt 10:5). He also told them, "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. (Equivalent to a curse in those days. Even today if you show the sole of your sandal/shoe to most middle easterners it is taken as an extreme offense.) I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgement than for that town. I am sending you out like sheep among wolves, there fore be SHREWD as snakes and INNOCENT as doves. Be on your guard against men;..." (Matt 10:14-17a) and "When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another." (Matt 10:23a) and "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Mat 10:34) ALL verses NIV. I could and will show much more if necessary to show Jesus' NON-pacifist behavior and admonitions. In the Sermon on the Mount I believe that Jesus was speaking in idealistic terms; in terms which would shock His listeners and get them to think about all of the Jewish legalistic rules which had them bound all up; bound up in a way that not even a priest or legal scribe were used by Jesus as an example of righteousness in the parable of "Who is My Neighbor?" ("The Good Samaritan") but rather one disregarded and shunned and thought of no more than a dog by the Jews then, a Samaritan. You speak ideally and not realistically and that is fine if you are young. Most of us older folks also went through an idealistic phase in our early lives till we experienced more life.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

You must balance Sermon on the Mount Idealism with the PRACTICAL instructions of Jesus given just a few chapters later when He was sending His beloved disciples out on missionary journeys. Note first that He told them to be SELECTIVE with who they preached the Gospel (Matt 10:5). He also told them, "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. (Equivalent to a curse in those days. Even today if you show the sole of your sandal/shoe to most middle easterners it is taken as an extreme offense.) I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgement than for that town. I am sending you out like sheep among wolves, there fore be SHREWD as snakes and INNOCENT as doves. Be on your guard against men;..." (Matt 10:14-17a) and "When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another." (Matt 10:23a) and "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Mat 10:34) ALL verses NIV. I could and will show much more if necessary to show Jesus' NON-pacifist behavior and admonitions. In the Sermon on the Mount I believe that Jesus was speaking in idealistic terms; in terms which would shock His listeners and get them to think about all of the Jewish legalistic rules which had them bound all up; bound up in a way that not even a priest or legal scribe were used by Jesus as an example of righteousness in the parable of "Who is My Neighbor?" ("The Good Samaritan") but rather one disregarded and shunned and thought of no more than a dog by the Jews then, a Samaritan. You speak ideally and not realistically and that is fine if you are young. Most of us older folks also went through an idealistic phase in our early lives till we experienced more life.

Yes, I know people don't like the words of Jesus. But in this case the action I suggest is consistent with His words and pose no more risk than happens in normal transactions. So it isn't necessary to worry about practical consequences in following His ideals.

 

[Monksailor]

I love the words of Jesus. As one matures in Christ and reads the Word of God they learn to understand that no verse or section actually is in and of itself but part of a whole of the Biblical context. This is why I use a Thompson's Chain Reference Bible which merely means that the majority of all of the verses/sections of the Bible are given relative verses/sections throughout the Bible so as to be able to derive a better comprehension contextually. No commentary, just other places in the Bible a given subject is also addressed by God. I am sorry you failed to see how pertinent what I gave was to what you said but some day I hope you will.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I love the words of Jesus. As one matures in Christ and reads the Word of God they learn to understand that no verse or section actually is in and of itself but part of a whole of the Biblical context. This is why I use a Thompson's Chain Reference Bible which merely means that the majority of all of the verses/sections of the Bible are given relative verses/sections throughout the Bible so as to be able to derive a better comprehension contextually. No commentary, just other places in the Bible a given subject is also addressed by God. I am sorry you failed to see how pertinent what I gave was to what you said but some day I hope you will.

And I also am sorry you do not see the ethical, practical and morally satisfactory nature of the suggestion I made in this case.

 

[Hank77]

If a company clearly indicates it is a christian ethic company then in all likelihood the gay couple would seek out a company sympathetic to their marriage.

Coercing a Christian couple to host a gay wedding

There’s a twist in this. The lesbian couple initially contacted the owners by telephone. It turns out that the woman who called is a law student, and she recorded the phone conversation. Now you tell me. What kind of a person records phone conversations about wedding plans? Probably not someone who is mainly concerned about wedding plans.


This sounds to me like a set-up designed to ensnare unsuspecting Christians because of their beliefs about marriage. In any case, this Christian couple is now paying through the nose because the government says they must violate their consciences and host gay wedding on their personal property.

 

[Zoii]

Coercing a Christian couple to host a gay wedding

There’s a twist in this. The lesbian couple initially contacted the owners by telephone. It turns out that the woman who called is a law student, and she recorded the phone conversation. Now you tell me. What kind of a person records phone conversations about wedding plans? Probably not someone who is mainly concerned about wedding plans.


This sounds to me like a set-up designed to ensnare unsuspecting Christians because of their beliefs about marriage. In any case, this Christian couple is now paying through the nose because the government says they must violate their consciences and host gay wedding on their personal property.

Yes thats dishonest. But again you know even if that was the intent and your company just gave amazing customer service [which it should try to do anyway] and albeit you would be indicating a referral to someone that is gay sympathetic and high quality, then trouble is unlikely. Look its weird someone would wanna make a legal point as in the case you mentioned.... but you know most people planning a wedding would just want the best day possible not drama. If I was legally backed into a corner then of course, if that was the law in my state, I'd obey the law - Id never condone intentionally breaking the law. But with good communication Id be indicating that sure Id do the job, but it goes against my conviction and I really would want to refer them to this fantastic colleague - and WOW just look at his work.....well u get the picture


But yea...your example is very unpleasant and in that instance, if it was the law.... I wouldnt be breaking it.... and I guess you could argue that your not breaking your convictions - you dont agree with it but you have a job to do and are compelled by law.... so get on with it. Lots of people in lots of jobs have to do things they dont agree with.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Yes thats dishonest.

...and this is why the course of action that I suggested, "accidentally" botching the job, is perfectly justified. We're not dealing with people who sincerely intend to hire you for your services, we're dealing with people who are trying to entrap you in a lawsuit. Since they're not dealing honestly with you, there is no reasonable expectation that you will deal honestly with them. There is nothing wrong with lying to them because there is no presumption of truth in communication between enemies. It's no different from giving a false credit card number to a scam artist or posting a sign warning thieves that the premises are under video surveillance when they in fact are not.

 

[Zoii]

...and this is why the course of action that I suggested, "accidentally" botching the job, is perfectly justified. We're not dealing with people who sincerely intend to hire you for your services, we're dealing with people who are trying to entrap you in a lawsuit. Since they're not dealing honestly with you, there is no reasonable expectation that you will deal honestly with them. There is nothing wrong with lying to them because there is no presumption of truth in communication between enemies. It's no different from giving a false credit card number to a scam artist or posting a sign warning thieves that the premises are under video surveillance when they in fact are not.

I cannot support you're advice to lie to the customers and be dishonest and sabotage a customers wedding. This impacts on the business' reputation, damages the couples wedding, and damages the saboteurs personal esteem by being fraudulent.

In my view Christians have no right to claim the high moral ground if they are advocating to be liars and scheme to ruin someones wedding. And for the record I do not regard a gay couple marrying as my "enemy" as you suggest they are.

Lastly the 99.99% of individuals planning a wedding are genuine people excited about their forthcoming marriage. That its your idea to ruin it I don't support, regardless of whether the marriage is straight or gay.

 

[Yekcidmij]

My daughter recently established a Photography business. She has worked with another person in this business for about a year. Before that it has been her plans to eventually have her own business. She is a devout Christian who understands God's Word to say that homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle but rather a sinful one as many other things are. She believes in loving the sinner but NOT their sin including not accepting it. I am concerned for her as it is obvious how the LGtB group seeks out opportunities to attack Christian businesses which they can trap the owners into saying things of which they attempt to further their agenda in courts and destroy the business. She needs the money for the family. Any EXPERIENCED advice about how to respond to these people to avoid misery? Our area is Muskegon Michigan.

I dunno, I don't think baking a cake for someone in the same as sanctioning their worldview. You aren't exchanging a cake for a worldview, you're exchanging a cake for monetary payment. Once you trade the cake for a monetary payment, the exchange is over.

Should the power company feel similar objections and not provide power to a homosexual wedding or living space? What about a landlord? Should a landlord feel a similar objection and not provide housing to a homosexual couple? We could go on, but it seems to me the answer on all of these is "no." You're not required to investigate, support, or condemn someone's moral positions in order to carry out a business transaction. Such a thing is impossible anyway - where would we stop? Why stop with homosexuality? If I run a grocery store should I make sure everyone buying alcohol isn't a drunkard? If I'm baking cakes, should I make sure the cakes won't go toward feeding someone's gluttony? This could go on endlessly....

I'm not one to want to force people to do something their conscience says is wrong, but on this particular thing I think it's a failure to understand the exchange that is actually taking place.

 

[gym_class_hero]

That's called lying. I wouldn't advise a Christian to start a business based on an expectation that they'd like to customers or give intentionally bad service. It's a bad witness.

it's not lying. They would be unavailable because they choose not to do gay weddings. I've ran businesses and owned a business. if I decide not to do business with someone, I don't owe them an explanation.

 

[Hank77]

But again you know even if that was the intent and your company just gave amazing customer service [which it should try to do anyway] and albeit you would be indicating a referral to someone that is gay sympathetic and high quality, then trouble is unlikely.

That didn't work for the photographer in NM. She did everything to help this couple choose another photographer that had a good reputation and was even a little less expensive but the couple said no and sued her.

Lots of people in lots of jobs have to do things they dont agree with.

Lots of people in lots of jobs have to do things where they believe they will be taking part in a sinful act? I don't think so.

 

[Hank77]

I'm not one to want to force people to do something their conscience says is wrong, but on this particular thing I think it's a failure to understand the exchange that is actually taking place.

This thread isn't about wedding cakes. It is about photographers that have to be present at the event and take pictures of the event, same-sex kissing, etc. Big difference.
There is also a big difference between baking a cake and having the event take place on the property where you live or in your house.

 

[Andyintheuk]

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the.8034397/

My daughter recently established a Photography business. She has worked with another person in this business for about a year. Before that it has been her plans to eventually have her own business. She is a devout Christian who understands God's Word to say that homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle but rather a sinful one as many other things are. She believes in loving the sinner but NOT their sin including not accepting it. I am concerned for her as it is obvious how the LGtB group seeks out opportunities to attack Christian businesses which they can trap the owners into saying things of which they attempt to further their agenda in courts and destroy the business. She needs the money for the family. Any EXPERIENCED advice about how to respond to these people to avoid misery? Our area is Muskegon Michigan.

Try reading my post at https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the.8034397/
We’re told not to judge in Matthew 7 v 1. We must reach out to all people and tell them about God’s love, Jesus’ rescue, joy and transformation through the Holy Spirit.

By telling people they can’t come to God unless they first conform to our standards of behaviour will put them off and condem them to a Godless eternity. If you’re selling a car, you try to emphasise the positives. You wouldn’t tell the prospective buyer: ‘it’s only got 2 seats, it's mpg is awful, it’s cold in winter and there’s no boot space. Wouldn’t you try and get them to test drive it and and experience the drive for themselves and let them find out later about the replacement cost of tyres, otherwise you’ll be stuck with that car a long time.

 

[Zoii]

That didn't work for the photographer in NM. She did everything to help this couple choose another photographer that had a good reputation and was even a little less expensive but the couple said no and sued her.

Lots of people in lots of jobs have to do things where they believe they will be taking part in a sinful act? I don't think so.

whoa u didnt tell me she was taking part in a sinful act - u mean she was homosexual too?...or do u mean by photographing the wedding she was committing a sin..........meh na thats nonsense. Just because i sell shoes to someone going to gay wedding doesnt mean i condone it or that im committing a sin.