Photography (Weddings) Business and Homosexual Agenda

blackribbon

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Much of what I read here is spoken in ignorance or just blindly and plainly attempting to defend homosexuality or erroneously making assumptions of what my daughter's response would be and/or totally ignorant of how aggressive the LGtb community is targeting Christian business owners.

Fact is: what I have stated about the LGtb group is in fact occurring. They have strategies in place to trap Christian business owners. There is no way they will engage a Christian without a prepared dialog to force the issue and get a statement from the business owner regarding their position relative to their sinful lifestyle. Whether a business owner is a Christian or not can be or should be quickly discerned from a quick search of their web site. Throughout the Bible we are admonished to take a stand for Christ, be courageous, be separate from and expose evil, and be not ashamed. In fact, in Rev 21, I believe, the cowardly are grouped with unbelievers, murderers, sexually immoral, and liars. So, if they ask, which they will, are you saying to lie or not take a stand/be a coward?

How would they trap a Christian photographer if she said "Sure, let me pull out my appointment book and get your deposit to book the date?" Jesus never said to embarrass non-Christians in their sin and refuse to do business with them. I seem to remember him going to dinner at the tax-collectors home (not an honorable trade at the time) and spending time with less than honorable women.

If you daughter can't do trade with sinners, she might as well shut up shop now since she won't have any business, even in the church.

Should teachers refuse to teach the kids of the LGtB community? Should a restaurant refuse to serve any women only groups or men only groups? Should the hospital put them back on the ambulance? Should the church say there is no salvation for them unless they reform before they sit in the pew?

To refuse to serve non-Christians doesn't sound very Christ-like to me. Any Christian who only wants to serve other Christians probably shouldn't have a public business. Is she also going to turn down weddings in a person's backyard because she won't know if they really are Christians...and what about a Hindi or Muslim wedding?
 
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blackribbon

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I would advise not giving details when turning down jobs. Just say your schedule is booked or you're not taking on new clients at this time. People are allowed to turn down jobs, they just can't state they are for discriminatory reasons. I have a friend who is a photographer - she agreed to do one wedding for personal friends, but otherwise she has turned down other weddings because she wants to avoid wedding drama and bridezillas.

So the Christian thing to do is to LIE so that you don't have to do business with a non-Christian?
 
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Monksailor

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C.S. Lewis talked about this idea that our Christianity in the marketplace should be "latent". By that, he means that we shouldn't be explicit about our faith, and have a "Christian" business that advertises (not necessarily). But in the way we go about our business and serve others, we implicitly point back to Christ.

This is not the only way to go about things, just one perspective.

However, not providing a service to them does not allow you to do this. It does not allow you to love them the way Christ would.

You have taken C S Lewis out of context and made him say that which he did not. He was referring specifically to his individual approach and style of writing, ie; "Chronicles of Narnia" when he used the phrase regarding latent Christianity and how he thought that the book publishing industry needed more like his. OTHERS have alluded to his writing style as also being an approach for the Marketplace. C S Lewis' quote: "What we want is not more little books about Christianity, but more little books by Christians on other subjects – with their Christianity latent." Taken from: C.S. Lewis’ Marketplace Strategy for Transforming a Nation - Theology of Business
 
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Monksailor

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Several Answers sound good. Thanks. But my daughter may not want to lie about her schedule if it is not all booked up. This is something for which they are able to verify by having friends in their group call afterwards and try to set up an appt for a straight couple. I have thought of advising her on the keeping it a private, within the church business. But she has a young, struggling family of four and esp as she is just starting out needs the exposure and market size of what a commercial business affords in order to develop the business at a significant pace. She has no family from either side in her church which would significantly impede its exposure and growth. I am awaiting the CAKE court case results. I have sent her a link to Alliance Defending Freedom's link specifically for entrepreneurs like her which has a slash Create Freely after the main web page. There IS a free downloadable brochure there. I cannot get it as I am not the one with the business and you have to provide your business data.
 
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Monksailor

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What I seek here is someone with first hand experience in dealing with what I address and what they have discovered as a result. Conjectures, presumptions, assumptions, and imaginations regarding this: I thank you for the effort of your involvement but I seek someone EXPERIENCED with this. This is why I qualified the advice I sought by saying "good advice." To me, good advice comes from experience and not the above described sources in sentence 2. I apologize for the lack of clarity. I will now fix that.
 
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Vicomte13

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Much of what I read here is spoken in ignorance or just blindly and plainly attempting to defend homosexuality or erroneously making assumptions of what my daughter's response would be and/or totally ignorant of how aggressive the LGtb community is targeting Christian business owners.

Fact is: what I have stated about the LGtb group is in fact occurring. They have strategies in place to trap Christian business owners. There is no way they will engage a Christian without a prepared dialog to force the issue and get a statement from the business owner regarding their position relative to their sinful lifestyle. Whether a business owner is a Christian or not can be or should be quickly discerned from a quick search of their web site. Throughout the Bible we are admonished to take a stand for Christ, be courageous, be separate from and expose evil, and be not ashamed. In fact, in Rev 21, I believe, the cowardly are grouped with unbelievers, murderers, sexually immoral, and liars. So, if they ask, which they will, are you saying to lie or not take a stand/be a coward?

It depends on the laws of the state of Michigan, and of the City of Muskegon. The State of Michigan does not at present, to my knowledge, have anti-discrimination laws that would override the inherent right of business owners to decide whom they serve (as long as they don't violate federal antidiscrimination laws), but the City of Muskegon has included LGBT in their anti-discrimination statutes, so it is likely that were she to refuse to provide her services on the basis of a couple's LGBT status, that the couple could bring a discrimination lawsuit in the city courts of Muskegon and prevail.

So, your daughter has a few options here:

(1) If she wants to become a test case and carry a formal legal challenge to the LGBT forward, she can violate the Muskegon ordinance, take the legal hits (which will probably include being shut down, at least temporarily, and losing in the local courts and being ordered to pay hefty fines and damages to the gay couple), and then appeal the decision on constitutional grounds. To have a hope of winning she will have to have good legal counsel. Perhaps she can prepare a trap of her own by consulting with religious rights lawyers BEFORE she takes the stand, so that she refuses service in a way and using the words that are specifically designed to give her the most favorable case in a lawsuit.

If she affiliates with the right religious liberty defense lawyers, they may partially fund her legal efforts or even do it pro-bono.

However, she should be prepared to lose and to spend a great deal on the legal effort, thereby becoming a martyr. She should not expect to find too many lawyers willing to join her in economic martyrdom.

The Supreme Court case that Redleghunter mentioned may cast light on this.

(2) She can knuckle under to the law, and think in terms of the segregationists who truly believed, in their heart of hearts, that blacks bore the mark of Ham, and that it was genuinely evil for the races to mix. There were people who sincerely held their segregationist beliefs on religious people. American law made no allowance for them, and when they were discovered they were rooted out and all driven out of business. Or they swallowed their religious beliefs and decided that they needed to stay in business, and bowed to the superior force of law even if they did not change their minds.

As a practical matter, this makes the most sense, and is a long-standing tradition among Christians going all the way back to Jesus' admonition to the Jews to pay taxes to Caesar EVEN THOUGH Caesar did things that were an abomination to Jews and before God. God will enforce his law.

Jesus said that his followers would need to be many things, but one of them was "wise as serpents". Serpents are known throughout the Bible for their sneakiness. Essentially, faced with overwhelming force, the Christian can chose to be a martyr, or he can choose to follow Jesus' advice, pay the taxes, be a serpent, and wait for the day when people have had enough of the evil, then rise up politically to throw off the bad law.

As long as she provides the services, nothing legally prevents her from being politically active in efforts to overturn the law. There may be business consequences to that, but those would come in the form of a boycott - which would obviate her need to serve LGBT.

(3) She can move elsewhere, where there are not such laws.

There are variations on the theme, but essentially her choice is to fight, almost certainly lose the opening battles, and perhaps maybe win in court in the end, or perhaps be a martyr and have her business and assets stripped from her by the law, or she can bend the knee to the law and resist it mentally and perhaps politically, or she can clear out and go someplace where she will be legally protected, or very unlikely to face the problem.

Those are the choices. Possible victory (but probable martyrdom), serpenthood, or refugee.

I will add that I believe the best answer is serpenthood. She has a young family and she needs to succeed. That means that she has to compromise with the society in which she lives. To pay taxes to the Romans MEANT that the Jews were actively providing the means for their oppressors to remain there, enforce their laws...and ultimately pay for the Army that destroyed the Temple itself. Jesus knew that. He told them to pay their taxes anyway, the alternative being an immediate revolt against the Romans which, Jesus knew, the Romans would win with great loss of life to the Jews. So, even though people could logically argue that paying taxes to a warlike and murderous state is "support" for the war and murder and torture and all of that that warlike and murderous states do, Jesus cleared people of that potential guilt: he told them to pay their taxes anyway, not to throw away their lives in a hopeless fight against a superior foe, when God had given no sign or promise of victory.

The advice I would give is to be a serpent and not turn away LGBT if they come in to get the pictures done. Because all of the alternatives amount to economic martyrdom and professional suicide, at great cost to a young family.

Knuckle under and recognize that God sees your oppression and knows who your oppressors are, and is just.
 
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Tree of Life

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Would she have a problem taking photos for a pair of atheists? What about a couple that had been "living in sin" before their ceremony? Or adulterers? Or anyone else whose relationship is in any way sinful or whose lifestyle she disagrees with? If not, then why single out homosexuals? What makes their sin special such that they should be refused service?

And if so, perhaps wedding photography is the wrong business for her.

Marriage is a good gift of God and God calls all people who will not remain single to become married. So it's a good and obedient thing for atheists to marry and a good and obedient thing for co-habitors to marry.

However two homosexuals cannot be married in the eyes of God because a gay-union does not meet the biblical requirements to qualify as a marriage. So whether or not Christians should participate in such an event is a moral quandary. From one perspective, it might be comparable to Christians participating in a seance or a Christian photographer to be asked to take photos at an orgy.
 
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Tree of Life

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What I seek here is someone with first hand experience in dealing with what I address and what they have discovered as a result. Conjectures, presumptions, assumptions, and imaginations regarding this: I thank you for the effort of your involvement but I seek someone EXPERIENCED with this. This is why I qualified the advice I sought by saying "good advice." To me, good advice comes from experience and not the above described sources in sentence 2. I apologize for the lack of clarity. I will now fix that.

If it's good advice you seek, you've come to the wrong place. Welcome to CF, btw!
 
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Hank77

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Is it not a sin to have sex outside of wedlock? Getting married may be the proper course of action, but that doesn't erase the sin.
That isn't the point when it comes to making a wedding cake for the marriage or taking photos at the wedding. The wedding itself is legal and Godly.
 
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Almost there

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My daughter recently established a Photography business. She has worked with another person in this business for about a year. Before that it has been her plans to eventually have her own business. She is a devout Christian who understands God's Word to say that homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle but rather a sinful one as many other things are. She believes in loving the sinner but NOT their sin including not accepting it. I am concerned for her as it is obvious how the LGtB group seeks out opportunities to attack Christian businesses which they can trap the owners into saying things of which they attempt to further their agenda in courts and destroy the business. She needs the money for the family. Any EXPERIENCED advice about how to respond to these people to avoid misery? Our area is Muskegon Michigan.
Court to order that Christian photographer can refuse same-sex wedding work, law firm says

Christian wins the right to refuse to photograph homosexual ‘weddings’

Apparently a key point is that she did not have a storefront.
 
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Hank77

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Edit: for the record, these are not my personal positions. I'm just trying to figure out what makes the LGBT community so special that they should be refused service for their sins while others get a free pass.
It because the marriage is not legal in God eyes and therefore Christians may have an objection to taking any part in it at all, including making the cake, etc.
 
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Hank77

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My daughter recently established a Photography business. She has worked with another person in this business for about a year. Before that it has been her plans to eventually have her own business. She is a devout Christian who understands God's Word to say that homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle but rather a sinful one as many other things are. She believes in loving the sinner but NOT their sin including not accepting it. I am concerned for her as it is obvious how the LGtB group seeks out opportunities to attack Christian businesses which they can trap the owners into saying things of which they attempt to further their agenda in courts and destroy the business. She needs the money for the family. Any EXPERIENCED advice about how to respond to these people to avoid misery? Our area is Muskegon Michigan.
Depending on what state you live in she may not have to worry about accommodation laws in relationship to the LGBT community at all. Here is a link to the laws in each state.
http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-and-criminal-justice/state-public-accommodation-laws.aspx
 
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RocksInMyHead

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It because the marriage is not legal in God eyes and therefore Christians may have an objection to taking any part in it at all, including making the cake, etc.
Is a marriage between adulterers legal in God's eyes? What about a marriage performed by a different religion or a totally secular ceremony?
 
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Hank77

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Should teachers refuse to teach the kids of the LGtB community?
What sin is being committed here?
Should a restaurant refuse to serve any women only groups or men only groups?
Is it a sin for anyone to eat?
Should the hospital put them back on the ambulance?
Is it a sin for anyone to get sick or injured?
Should the church say there is no salvation for them unless they reform before they sit in the pew?
What sin would they be committing sitting in a pew and listening??/
.and what about a Hindi or Muslim wedding?
Where does the Bible say that marriage between a man and woman is a sin? Where does it say that marriages between a man and woman of another religion is a sin?
 
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Hank77

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Is a marriage between adulterers legal in God's eyes? What about a marriage performed by a different religion or a totally secular ceremony?
The business person who didn't know the circumstances of any marriage would not have their conscience defiled. The Bible does not commend any marriage between a man and a woman of any religion or non-religion.
 
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blackribbon

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What sin is being committed here?

Is it a sin for anyone to eat?

Is it a sin for anyone to get sick or injured?

What sin would they be committing sitting in a pew and listening??/

Where does the Bible say that marriage between a man and woman is a sin? Where does it say that marriages between a man and woman of another religion is a sin?

How is taking pictures of people a sin?
 
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JCFantasy23

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So the Christian thing to do is to LIE so that you don't have to do business with a non-Christian?

I meant be vague on reasoning, saying you can't do it at this time (if you're busy, that's one reason to give to keep it vague). People aren't obligated to give a long list of reasons why they are not able to take a certain job contracting their services. There's different ways to be vague and turn down a job politely.
 
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blackribbon

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What sin is being committed here?

Is it a sin for anyone to eat?

Is it a sin for anyone to get sick or injured?

What sin would they be committing sitting in a pew and listening??/

Where does the Bible say that marriage between a man and woman is a sin? Where does it say that marriages between a man and woman of another religion is a sin?

What if the kids are being vocal about having "two mommies" and that their family is every bit as much of a family as the kids who have step-parents or any other family grouping.

What if the group of women is there to celebrate a baby shower for a same sex couple...or a group of men having a Bible study (and it is a middle-eastern cuisine - sorry, we don't serve Christians...)?

And how many churches that would discourage their members from baking a cake for a ceremony that goes against their religious belief....like a same sex marriage, would embrace the same couple if they showed up on Sunday morning to see what this "church thing is all about".

I dread a world where I have to tell strangers my personal business before they will provide a service for me. What if I wanted to hold a "Fairwell to my Uterus" party to make the sting of getting a hysterectomy a bit less painful...some people might consider this to be sexual (when it isn't) and refuse to make my cake .... Can you imagine telling the hostess at Texas Roadhouse ... we are a party of 6 celebrating a job promotion (along with the type of business) before we can find out if they will seat us? (no, we don't believe in serving secular bookstores....so maybe you might try Bill's Cafe on the edge of town.)
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Marriage is a good gift of God and God calls all people who will not remain single to become married. So it's a good and obedient thing for atheists to marry and a good and obedient thing for co-habitors to marry.

However two homosexuals cannot be married in the eyes of God because a gay-union does not meet the biblical requirements to qualify as a marriage. So whether or not Christians should participate in such an event is a moral quandary. From one perspective, it might be comparable to Christians participating in a seance or a Christian photographer to be asked to take photos at an orgy.
Why is it a moral quandary? The photographer is not being forced to marry someone of the same gender or do anything other than observe and take pictures. And I don't necessarily see any moral quandary in photographing a seance or orgy either, so long as you're not taking part. Unless you feel that observing would cause you to fall into sin? Same goes for photographing a gay wedding. Unless you feel as though attending a gay wedding would cause you to fall into sin yourself, there is nothing wrong with being there.

That isn't the point when it comes to making a wedding cake for the marriage or taking photos at the wedding. The wedding itself is legal and Godly.
If they're not getting married in a church or by a minister, why does the Godliness matter? You're just baking a cake or taking pictures.

The business person who didn't know the circumstances of any marriage would not have their conscience defiled. The Bible does not commend any marriage between a man and a woman of any religion or non-religion.
And if the business person did know?
 
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