Phobias

[rusmeister]

Hi guys! Hope Lent is going well; I feel very withdrawn from TAW on the whole; the existing structure does not encourage me to feel that I am in an Orthodox place as I once felt.

Still, a recent discussion I made a single comment on brought up the issue of language and terms, something I think I’ve learned a few things about, and I’d like to think that there are some things worth discussing and sharing.

There are a lot of brand-new “phobias” that have been “discovered” over the past decade. What there hasn’t been a lot of is thinking over what a phobia is. Are there Orthodox Christians here that can intelligently define what a phobia is and what may legitimately be called a phobia? Is there any intelligent basis for us to use these new-fangled terms in light of what “-phobia” has been understood to mean; can anyone defend the use of “homophobia”, “Islamophobia”, etc. or otherwise show that they are not mere rhetorical weapons to be used against whoever happens to disagree with the prevailing Zeitgeist?

Can people show that use of these terms is not an indication of mindless parroting?
I don’t think so, but I’m willing to hear out disagreement. What I think we ought not be willing to do is to accept new terminology without challenge. I have little expectation that Orthodox folk will try to show the legitimacy of the terms, but I’m posting it in St Justin’s in case anyone thinks the issue “controversial”.

 

[ArmyMatt]

personally, I think it's because it's an emotionally driven term. there is no logic behind it. the guy that committed the atrocity in New Zealand wasn't phobic about Muslims.

 

[truefiction1]

I think I am suffering from workophobia.

 

[RobNJ]

Now, Here is a perfect place for this discussion... I look forward to seeing it take it's course.

As usual, I've got my mother's genetic ability to see ALL FIVE sides, of a simple yes, or no question, kicking in.

On the one hand, it could be argued that "Islamohobia" could be somewhat loosely considered to be a specific sub-category of xenophobia.

On the other hand, could be a aversion to brand hatred, as hatred, in favor of a " 'curable' mental/psychological problem"

 

[Chesterton]

Hi guys! Hope Lent is going well; I feel very withdrawn from TAW on the whole; the existing structure does not encourage me to feel that I am in an Orthodox place as I once felt.

I wish you'd come around more. It doesn't help a place be more by having an Orthodox avoid it. Lewis once said something about "cutting off a man's fingers would be an odd way to get him to do more work".

Still, a recent discussion I made a single comment on brought up the issue of language and terms, something I think I’ve learned a few things about, and I’d like to think that there are some things worth discussing and sharing.

There are a lot of brand-new “phobias” that have been “discovered” over the past decade. What there hasn’t been a lot of is thinking over what a phobia is. Are there Orthodox Christians here that can intelligently define what a phobia is and what may legitimately be called a phobia? Is there any intelligent basis for us to use these new-fangled terms in light of what “-phobia” has been understood to mean; can anyone defend the use of “homophobia”, “Islamophobia”, etc. or otherwise show that they are not mere rhetorical weapons to be used against whoever happens to disagree with the prevailing Zeitgeist?

Can people show that use of these terms is not an indication of mindless parroting?
I don’t think so, but I’m willing to hear out disagreement. What I think we ought not be willing to do is to accept new terminology without challenge. I have little expectation that Orthodox folk will try to show the legitimacy of the terms, but I’m posting it in St Justin’s in case anyone thinks the issue “controversial”.

Well yeah those can't be defended. We know where "homophobia" comes from. Back in the '60's when same sex attraction was a mental disorder, a guy named Weinberg decided to flip it on it's head, to call black white and white black, and so declared that same sex attraction is perfectly healthy, while disagreeing with him on that was a disorder. Poof! Like magic.

 

[Not David]

personally, I think it's because it's an emotionally driven term. there is no logic behind it. the guy that committed the atrocity in New Zealand wasn't phobic about Muslims.

Didn't he kill Muslims because he saw them as menace though?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Didn't he kill Muslims because he saw them as menace though?

probably, but that doesn't make it a phobia.

 

[Not David]

probably, but that doesn't make it a phobia.

Why not?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Why not?

because people who have a phobia avoid what they are phobic about.

 

[Not David]

because people who have a phobia avoid what they are phobic about.

Well, phobia means hate too.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well, phobia means hate too.

no it doesn't. it's an anxiety disorder. people who have phobias are afraid and seek to avoid whatever they are afraid of.

 

[Not David]

no it doesn't. it's an anxiety disorder. people who have phobias are afraid and seek to avoid whatever they are afraid of.

So what would you consider homophobia, xenophobia and islamphobia.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So what would you consider homophobia, xenophobia and islamphobia.

something made up, something real, and something made up.

I have yet to meet anyone or hear anyone having a disordered fear of Islam or gays. I have heard of folks who are fearful of foreigners.

this doesn't mean there should be intolerance or bigotry for any reason.

 

[rusmeister]

So what would you consider homophobia, xenophobia and islamphobia.

It’s not an issue of what one personally considers. The language itself has objective origins that none of us invented, the terms have roots with objective meaning not dependent on personal opinion, here, mostly Greek roots.
The usage of -“phobia” has always been limited to irrational and extreme fear of a pathological type. To apply it to rational opposition to same-sex sexual relations or to Islam is simply to lie, whether one intends to deceive or has himself been deceived. A person who thinks immigration ought to be controlled and limited is NOT “xenophobic”; he rationally opposes uncontrolled immigration. A person who opposes the public tolerance of sexual anarchy is NOT “homophobic”, as there are rational grounds on which to do so, and ditto for opposition to the spread of Islam, just to take the terms you have cited. They are, generally speaking, illegitimate terms.

 

[~Anastasia~]

When "phobia" comes up, I tend to think of my reaction to certain spiders. I was traumatized at a young age, and have a completely irrational terror of these kinds of spiders - they are in fact harmless to humans and you might not even feel one if it's crawling on you. (That was actually hard for me to type.)

I do avoid them completely whenever possible. I kill them if no one else will and if they are inside my house, because it's preferable to later having them get on me. But if they are out there in the world somewhere, that doesn't bother me. I don't hate them. I don't go looking for them. I don't campaign against them. I'm just terrified and try to protect myself from being exposed to them.

It seems to me that everything connected to the political(?) usage of such terms - homophobia is a good example - is COMPLETELY inaccurate. To be politically or ideologically opposed to an idea is not a phobia or irrational fear. It looks nothing like it. One might be mildly or rabidly opposed - so resulting behavior could appear to be irrational to some/all ... but that's not the definition of a phobia.

I think such a usage was probably crafted in an attempt to either (a) serve as an insult or (b) subtly influence public opinion - and has simply been retained and used in expanded contexts because it achieves both of those goals.

But it is inaccurate. And as Rus has pointed out in particulars, and which I already knew in generalities, our language most DEFINITELY shapes our thinking. So this is worth being aware of.

 

[Chesterton]

Didn't he kill Muslims because he saw them as menace though?

He had spent time in some Muslim lands recently. He said he did not hate them. His focus was on non-white, non-European immigration to "his" lands.

 

[dzheremi]

Of course I agree with Rus here...and not just because I also have professional training in linguistics (though I do wish this were enough to be listened to by the people who push these terms on society, since it's not about clear use of language in the first place, I understand why it's not).

The thing that gets me is that I think the people who use these terms and advocate for their use also agree with Rus, even though they wouldn't admit it. I remember some time ago seeing a quote (possibly apocryphal) attributed to actor Morgan Freeman floating around Facebook that said something like "why do they call it homophobia? You're not scared. You're just a jerk." (Except it didn't say jerk. )

I found the popularity of this quote at the time to be very interesting and revealing. People in general may not think much about what they're doing when they use these terms, but those who define their use (pseudo-academics in "gender studies" and related new fields, advocacy groups, etc.) certainly do.

 

[FireDragon76]

personally, I think it's because it's an emotionally driven term. there is no logic behind it. the guy that committed the atrocity in New Zealand wasn't phobic about Muslims.

They were an existential threat to his identity. Having a fear doesn't mean people can't lash out at their fears.

 

[FireDragon76]

Phobia doesn't just connotate an avoidant behavior , but also aversion.

 

[FireDragon76]

He had spent time in some Muslim lands recently. He said he did not hate them. His focus was on non-white, non-European immigration to "his" lands.

Because we should always trust the word and self-insight of a murderous criminal.?