Philosophical denominations?

[Ruien]

My question is: Which denominations are known for being philosophical, i.e. the services are more like expositions than testimonials, and the focus is on education and enlightenment rather than (just) community?

Background to the question:

I have lived my whole life without religion and have long felt that something important was missing. The feeling has ebbed and flowed, but in the past few years I've felt it more intensely and I have sought out friends and associates who are practicing Christians or members of other faiths to talk with them about what they believe, and what their faith and practice means for them.

After talking with them, I attended church services with a friend of mine, a very bright and kind lady who is passionate about her faith in Christ. To make a long story short: I found the services tedious and unconvincing. There were a lot of boring and (I felt) trivial testimonials from people about how the lord had touched their lives, and some folksy banter from the pastor, who seemed more interested in getting chuckles than in educating or enlightening the congregation. It all felt shallow and really insulting to anyone's intelligence.

I was grateful for the welcoming nature of the congregation, but frankly I was disappointed by the service. I'm hoping to join a church where people are focused on ideas and where each service gives us food for thought, and would be appreciative of anyone who can share their experience and/or suggestions.

 

[Neogaia777]

My question is: Which denominations are known for being philosophical, i.e. the services are more like expositions than testimonials, and the focus is on education and enlightenment rather than (just) community?

Background to the question:

I have lived my whole life without religion and have long felt that something important was missing. The feeling has ebbed and flowed, but in the past few years I've felt it more intensely and I have sought out friends and associates who are practicing Christians or members of other faiths to talk with them about what they believe, and what their faith and practice means for them.

After talking with them, I attended church services with a friend of mine, a very bright and kind lady who is passionate about her faith in Christ. To make a long story short: I found the services tedious and unconvincing. There were a lot of boring and (I felt) trivial testimonials from people about how the lord had touched their lives, and some folksy banter from the pastor, who seemed more interested in getting chuckles than in educating or enlightening the congregation. It all felt shallow and really insulting to anyone's intelligence.

I was grateful for the welcoming nature of the congregation, but frankly I was disappointed by the service. I'm hoping to join a church where people are focused on ideas and where each service gives us food for thought, and would be appreciative of anyone who can share their experience and/or suggestions.

My answer would be different schools of thought about Philosophy...

I can't help you out very much, cause I usually not bored by most sermons... I can always usually find one or two things useful in most of them, to me anyway...

Praying for you,

God Bless!

 

[St_Worm2]

You might try these guys as a starting place. All three are senior pastors and theologians. Dr. Sproul (Presbyterian/PCA) is in Orlando, and Dr. MacArthur (Reformed Baptist/Independent) is in LA, and Dr. Swindoll (Evangelical Free) is in Texas. These are their broadcast ministries:

The Parables of Jesus by R.C. Sproul (Sproul)

Renewing Your Mind | No Other Name | Aug 6, 2017 (Sproul)

https://www.gty.org/broadcasts/radio (MacArthur)

What If . . . ? (Swindoll)

 

[tdidymas]

My question is: Which denominations are known for being philosophical, i.e. the services are more like expositions than testimonials, and the focus is on education and enlightenment rather than (just) community?

Background to the question:

I have lived my whole life without religion and have long felt that something important was missing. The feeling has ebbed and flowed, but in the past few years I've felt it more intensely and I have sought out friends and associates who are practicing Christians or members of other faiths to talk with them about what they believe, and what their faith and practice means for them.

After talking with them, I attended church services with a friend of mine, a very bright and kind lady who is passionate about her faith in Christ. To make a long story short: I found the services tedious and unconvincing. There were a lot of boring and (I felt) trivial testimonials from people about how the lord had touched their lives, and some folksy banter from the pastor, who seemed more interested in getting chuckles than in educating or enlightening the congregation. It all felt shallow and really insulting to anyone's intelligence.

I was grateful for the welcoming nature of the congregation, but frankly I was disappointed by the service. I'm hoping to join a church where people are focused on ideas and where each service gives us food for thought, and would be appreciative of anyone who can share their experience and/or suggestions.

I go to a Bible Church: The Woodlands Bible Church

We get lots of good teaching out of the Bible. Biblical doctrine as well as life application.
TD

 

[PloverWing]

My question is: Which denominations are known for being philosophical, i.e. the services are more like expositions than testimonials, and the focus is on education and enlightenment rather than (just) community?

This will vary from one pastor/congregation to another; some preachers and congregations prefer exposition and education, and others prefer something oriented more towards personal testimony or practical thoughts for everyday life. With that said:

My experience of Presbyterians is that, as a group, they are oriented toward serious study of theology and the Bible, and that sermons are often detailed analyses of a Bible passage or a theological idea. You might visit a couple of Presbyterian churches and see if one of them has an education-oriented preacher.

I'll add this: Sometimes the education is hiding in the Sunday School classrooms rather than the pulpit. That is, the sermons might be kind of "fluffy", but the Sunday School classes -- which include classes for adults as well as children -- include serious, detailed study of the Bible. I've had this experience in some Baptist churches and occasionally among Presbyterians.

 

[Dirk1540]

I found the services tedious and unconvincing. There were a lot of boring and (I felt) trivial testimonials from people about how the lord had touched their lives...It all felt shallow and really insulting to anyone's intelligence.
...I'm hoping to join a church where people are focused on ideas and where each service gives us food for thought

What specific kind of food for thought? Do you want food for thought for why God's existence would be true as opposed to false? Do you want food for thought on why Jesus is who Christians claim him to be? Or do you already believe those things and you just want more of a technical Bible study where you feel that every visit you are becoming better at understanding the Bible?

 

[Ruien]

What specific kind of food for thought? Do you want food for thought for why God's existence would be true as opposed to false? Do you want food for thought on why Jesus is who Christians claim him to be? Or do you already believe those things and you just want more of a technical Bible study where you feel that every visit you are becoming better at understanding the Bible?

Good questions, Dirk1540. At this point I can give only vague answers: I'm really interested the idea of God--the idea of perfection, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence. To take one specific example, Tim Keller pointed out, about the problem of evil, that just because a person can't understand how God could exist given so much evil in the world, it is nonetheless possible that God has a reason. How and to what extent could such a reason be perceptible to people?

About Jesus, I guess I am looking for food for thought about who Christians claim him to be. I am open-minded about this. (I was not always.) I would be fascinated by a sermon based on reasoned arguments (as opposed to mere assertions or personal testimony) for his divinity.

Anyhow, I don't mean to be demanding. I know I need to take responsibility and seek wisdom and try to open my heart. So, I plan to attend a local Lutheran church service next week. I do not know if Lutheranism is right for me, or if I am right for Lutheranism, but it seems like as good a place as any to start.

 

[Dirk1540]

About Jesus, I guess I am looking for food for thought about who Christians claim him to be. I am open-minded about this. (I was not always.) I would be fascinated by a sermon based on reasoned arguments (as opposed to mere assertions or personal testimony) for his divinity.

Yeah you'll find that the majority of Christians are Christians (the real ones) due to internal Christ experiences, and most would shrug off anyone who tried to tell them it wasn't real. So the majority of them aren't actually trying to prove anything intellectually in church, they instead usually want to just worship...but I'm not saying that church can't have intellectual 'Ah Ha' moments. But Bible studies were more my thing because they were more technical about studying the Bible (depending on which Bible study you go to). Better for Ah Ha moments IMO.

However, Bible study is level 2 thinking, you are at level 1 thinking, which means the level where you're not yet convinced it's even worth it to waste your time with the Bible. Sometimes this large church fairly close to me does this apologetics seminar and they offer it to people like yourself who are in the level 1 thinking, and not convinced yet to move to level 2. I went to it once...Ahh...it was ok (at best). I have a boat load of apologetics materials I've collected through the years. Since attending that seminar I often think to myself 'Which of my apologetics materials would I choose as the best Apologetics 101 course??' I find that DVDs are the most enjoyable, relax in on your couch, pop in the video, and pretend you're at the sermon that you are trying to find! These would be my choices...

Stephen Meyer did a DVD series that was meant for high school seniors who were about to go into the 'Lion's den' secular college universities. The course seems like it's for teenage kids but I could care less about that it was great. It was great because I find him to be #1 very articulate, and #2 very in tuned with how a skeptic thinks. So Part 1 is - 'Does God Exist?: Building the Scientific Case (TrueU)'. Part 2 - 'Is the Bible Reliable? Building the Historical Case (TrueU).' Now part 3 was not done by Meyer, it was about Jesus, but I think part 3 was a total flop!! The course is geared towards persuading those that are not Christians, but part 3 pretty much would only be appreciated by Christians. The instructor was not in touch with the way that skeptics think like Meyer is.

One of my favorite all time 'Food for thought' series on why Jesus is who Christians say he is is an oldie but goodie, a 20 year old DVD series by John Ankerberg called 'How To Conquer The Fear Of Not Knowing What To Say To Non-Christian Friends.' I own a mountain of material but that 20 year old series is still my favorite. Again, very articulate and very in touch with the objections that cause people to doubt. I would hand the skeptic Part 1 of TrueU series (argument for God), plus part 2 (archaeology defending the Bible). I would then tell them to sleep on part 3, and replace the Jesus section with Ankerberg's series. Now THAT would be the ideal Apologetics 101 course IMHO!!!!!!!

I'll just mention this also. My 2nd favorite food for thought John Ankerberg DVD series was also an oldie but goodie called 'Jesus Christ: Liar? Lunatic? Legend? or God?' Not only is Ankerberg himself excellent at articulating an argument, but his guest in that series is John Warwick Montgomery, he was a lawyer who was not a believer, he applied his legal expertise to the New Testament as if the Jesus story was 'On Trial.' And he came out of his research as a Christian, he too is very articulate.

EDIT...maybe I can mail you some of my copies, ugh I'm very disappointed to see that 'How To Conquer The Fear Of Not Knowing What To Say To Non-Christian Friends' is no longer available at Ankerberg's store. I might call them and ask why lol.

Sorry that I didn't address 'The Problem of Evil' by the way. The reason that I didn't is because it just was never really an objection that weighed on me. I know different people get stuck on different things. I remember this old movie 'Runaway Train.' The woman said to this escaped con "You're an animal!!!" He replied "Worse, I'm human." The question of evil never really bogged me down, I just always knew that there were incredibly sick twisted people all over the place.

 

[Ruien]

Yeah you'll find that the majority of Christians are Christians (the real ones) due to internal Christ experiences, and most would shrug off anyone who tried to tell them it wasn't real. So the majority of them aren't actually trying to prove anything intellectually in church, they instead usually want to just worship...but I'm not saying that church can't have intellectual 'Ah Ha' moments. But Bible studies were more my thing because they were more technical about studying the Bible (depending on which Bible study you go to). Better for Ah Ha moments IMO.

However, Bible study is level 2 thinking, you are at level 1 thinking, which means the level where you're not yet convinced it's even worth it to waste your time with the Bible. Sometimes this large church fairly close to me does this apologetics seminar and they offer it to people like yourself who are in the level 1 thinking, and not convinced yet to move to level 2. I went to it once...Ahh...it was ok (at best). I have a boat load of apologetics materials I've collected through the years. Since attending that seminar I often think to myself 'Which of my apologetics materials would I choose as the best Apologetics 101 course??' I find that DVDs are the most enjoyable, relax in on your couch, pop in the video, and pretend you're at the sermon that you are trying to find! These would be my choices...

Stephen Meyer did a DVD series that was meant for high school seniors who were about to go into the 'Lion's den' secular college universities. The course seems like it's for teenage kids but I could care less about that it was great. It was great because I find him to be #1 very articulate, and #2 very in tuned with how a skeptic thinks. So Part 1 is - 'Does God Exist?: Building the Scientific Case (TrueU)'. Part 2 - 'Is the Bible Reliable? Building the Historical Case (TrueU).' Now part 3 was not done by Meyer, it was about Jesus, but I think part 3 was a total flop!! The course is geared towards persuading those that are not Christians, but part 3 pretty much would only be appreciated by Christians. The instructor was not in touch with the way that skeptics think like Meyer is.

One of my favorite all time 'Food for thought' series on why Jesus is who Christians say he is is an oldie but goodie, a 20 year old DVD series by John Ankerberg called 'How To Conquer The Fear Of Not Knowing What To Say To Non-Christian Friends.' I own a mountain of material but that 20 year old series is still my favorite. Again, very articulate and very in touch with the objections that cause people to doubt. I would hand the skeptic Part 1 of TrueU series (argument for God), plus part 2 (archaeology defending the Bible). I would then tell them to sleep on part 3, and replace the Jesus section with Ankerberg's series. Now THAT would be the ideal Apologetics 101 course IMHO!!!!!!!

I'll just mention this also. My 2nd favorite food for thought John Ankerberg DVD series was also an oldie but goodie called 'Jesus Christ: Liar? Lunatic? Legend? or God?' Not only is Ankerberg himself excellent at articulating an argument, but his guest in that series is John Warwick Montgomery, he was a lawyer who was not a believer, he applied his legal expertise to the New Testament as if the Jesus story was 'On Trial.' And he came out of his research as a Christian, he too is very articulate.

EDIT...maybe I can mail you some of my copies, ugh I'm very disappointed to see that 'How To Conquer The Fear Of Not Knowing What To Say To Non-Christian Friends' is no longer available at Ankerberg's store. I might call them and ask why lol.

Sorry that I didn't address 'The Problem of Evil' by the way. The reason that I didn't is because it just was never really an objection that weighed on me. I know different people get stuck on different things. I remember this old movie 'Runaway Train.' The woman said to this escaped con "You're an animal!!!" He replied "Worse, I'm human." The question of evil never really bogged me down, I just always knew that there were incredibly sick twisted people all over the place.

Thanks Dirk. Very interesting. It makes perfect sense that most people "aren't actually trying to prove anything intellectually in church, they instead usually want to just worship." It would be foolish of me to show up and try to start a debate or have people present me with arguments on topics of my choosing. (I'm thankful to have joined CF for that!)

And you're right that I'm definitely on Level I. I have met people on a whole other order of thinking and I admire them. I guess that's another part of the attraction of Christianity for me. For the people who are really attuned to it, it seems to bring them such a sense of peace. It's beautiful just to behold.

I've been starting to take the time to try to read more and think more. On advice here on CF I got a copy of C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity and am diving into the immense wealth of resources online. I'm starting to get concerned that I'll have to be selective about my approach as there just isn't time to try to tackle it all. Anyway I've really appreciate the guidance I've got so far here on CF. Somehow it feels like I've been here much longer than I have.

 

[chevyontheriver]

My question is: Which denominations are known for being philosophical, i.e. the services are more like expositions than testimonials, and the focus is on education and enlightenment rather than (just) community?

A Catholic service is not terribly philosophical, although you might find an occasional pastor who is that way. For the most part the lectionary influences what a homily will be about. That means that the regular three year schedule of OT reading, Psalm, NT reading, and gospel reading defines what is heard more than anything. In that way a good portion of the Bible is covered in a three year cycle. The homily is supposed to be exposition and application of that. Some pastors do better than others. But the service actually focuses on the Eucharist. That is key for Catholics in their services, not exposition or community or testimonials.

As to actual philosophy, the Catholic Church can excel, but that isn't normally part of a service. It's more background. John Paul II was a philosopher pope. His writings show it. We also have a recommended, not required but recommended, philosopher in Thomas Aquinas. And many philosophers like Peter Kreeft in a long line of Catholic philosophers whose faith informs their philosophy and whose philosophy allows them to explain the faith.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

My question is: Which denominations are known for being philosophical, i.e. the services are more like expositions than testimonials, and the focus is on education and enlightenment rather than (just) community?

Background to the question:

I have lived my whole life without religion and have long felt that something important was missing. The feeling has ebbed and flowed, but in the past few years I've felt it more intensely and I have sought out friends and associates who are practicing Christians or members of other faiths to talk with them about what they believe, and what their faith and practice means for them.

After talking with them, I attended church services with a friend of mine, a very bright and kind lady who is passionate about her faith in Christ. To make a long story short: I found the services tedious and unconvincing. There were a lot of boring and (I felt) trivial testimonials from people about how the lord had touched their lives, and some folksy banter from the pastor, who seemed more interested in getting chuckles than in educating or enlightening the congregation. It all felt shallow and really insulting to anyone's intelligence.

I was grateful for the welcoming nature of the congregation, but frankly I was disappointed by the service. I'm hoping to join a church where people are focused on ideas and where each service gives us food for thought, and would be appreciative of anyone who can share their experience and/or suggestions.

Hello Ruien,

Well, good luck with the hunt to find a church that is more philosophically inclined. I'm not sure there's many out there. Even in those churches which might be lead by pastors who are willing to add some advanced, intellectual, academic enlightenment into the substance of their teaching, many churches are going to focus and communicate on a level that 'most' people can understand and relate with. Besides, as you may already know, it's not as if entire congregations of churches are just filled to the brim in the pews with under-grads (or grads) in college.

I'm not saying that there might not be a church out there 'some where' that is more intellectually inclined. No, what I'm saying is that good leaders will preach, teach and do outreach in a way that fits their audience and following. For them to teach over people's heads wouldn't be very a very pragmatic thing to do. Moreover, no matter what denomination you go to, you'll probably find a couple of things you'll disagree about and have to abide by in order to 'fit in.' It's just the way it is. No single denomination is perfect; and if there is one that is, I'm not sure what that would be like.

Probably, the kind of answers you're looking for aren't going to be gained by listening to sermons while sitting in the pews, but rather by face-to-face chats with highly qualified church leaders (or fellow parishioners), or various Christian Academics, or by attending Christian Apologetics meetings, or by seeking out Christian Philosopher organizations (if you can find one, that is).

Why do I say all of this? I say this because I am quite philosophically inclined in my approach to Christian faith as well, and I've pretty much given up on the notion that the mainstream social strata of people even care about higher level explanations. So, you won't find very many churches oriented toward that kind of exposition.

So, you'll probably find the most robust answers in academic books, podcasts, and online videos.

And of course, there are some of us who frequent these forums who are more than willing to chat with you about the 'higher order' ideas.

2PhiloVoid

 

[Dirk1540]

I've been starting to take the time to try to read more and think more. On advice here on CF I got a copy of C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity and am diving into the immense wealth of resources online. I'm starting to get concerned that I'll have to be selective about my approach as there just isn't time to try to tackle it all. Anyway I've really appreciate the guidance I've got so far here on CF. Somehow it feels like I've been here much longer than I have.

Yes C.S. Lewis is great. And you're right that time is limited for many people. Of course there are lots of great stuff out there besides the 3 things I recommended as my 'Ultimate Apologetics 101 course.' That was sort of a fun game that I just played with myself trying to think of what I found to be most articulately done sample size, combined with best ease of access (DVDs). What you say is so true, it's a nightmare a lot of times trying to get people to actually read or watch stuff lol. I've tried to get a handful of Christians at work to read this one book for over a year, I just last week got one of them to actually buy the book lol. There is another recommendation that I'll throw out there and you can just put it on your 'Maybe' list, it can be purchased in both book or DVD format, 'I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist' by Frank Turek/Norm Geisler, but the DVD version is just Frank Turek.

I have met people on a whole other order of thinking and I admire them. I guess that's another part of the attraction of Christianity for me. For the people who are really attuned to it, it seems to bring them such a sense of peace. It's beautiful just to behold.

Funny thing is that I've heard more than once through the years that 'Living for Christ' will win more people to Christianity than all the book knowledge you can ever attain in your life (having said that the book knowledge would compliment it of course). That statement, although I literally watched it be true my whole life, just rubbed the skeptic in me wrong way lol. I fought that idea tooth & nail for over 20 years. I'm a hard headed one lol, but sure enough I keep seeing it play out as being true. It sounds like you have a stronger gravitational pull towards people living for Christ. But some people still needs to know that they are not committing intellectual suicide first, that was definitely me. Other people are so moved by the internal experience that they 'Know' that that in itself is the evidence and nobody can tell them any different. But me and you fall into the statement by Josh McDowell "The heart can not delight in what the mind rejects as false."

I'll say one other thing, just a precaution. If you find yourself getting into Christian vs non-Christian debates like I did take them with a grain of salt. I'm of the opinion that debate format is almost always one of the best ways to learn anything because each theory has it's feet put to the fire! Debates vs non-Christians however have a major caveat attached to them. The Bible is a very technical study. One objection can take hours of explanation sometimes to properly flesh out and put into context. In Christian vs non-Christian debates the Christian is on constant defense, but the non-Christian is on constant offense. The non-Christian can simply hammer 9 objections down the Christian's throat...then if the Christian is lucky enough to address even 5 of the objections they maybe have 2 minutes per rebuttal. It's almost like regular chess compared to speed chess where you're only allowed 5 seconds per move. Debates are very deceptively slanted towards the non-Christian. In the beginning I was really into debates and it bothered me that the Christian 'Seemed To' lose all the time, until I started to understand that 'Speed Chess' isn't really the best way to build your knowledge of the Bible.

 

[Ruien]

"The heart can not delight in what the mind rejects as false."

Excellent thought. I think this is the crux of the matter for me right now. It's the leap of faith or the leap to faith. No time like the present, I suppose!

 

[Ruien]

Hello Ruien,

Well, good luck with the hunt to find a church that is more philosophically inclined. I'm not sure there's many out there. Even in those churches which might be lead by pastors who are willing to add some advanced, intellectual, academic enlightenment into the substance of their teaching, many churches are going to focus and communicate on a level that 'most' people can understand and relate with. Besides, as you may already know, it's not as if entire congregations of churches are just filled to the brim in the pews with under-grads (or grads) in college.

I'm not saying that there might not be a church out there 'some where' that is more intellectually inclined. No, what I'm saying is that good leaders will preach, teach and do outreach in a way that fits their audience and following. For them to teach over people's heads wouldn't be very a very pragmatic thing to do. Moreover, no matter what denomination you go to, you'll probably find a couple of things you'll disagree about and have to abide by in order to 'fit in.' It's just the way it is. No single denomination is perfect; and if there is one that is, I'm not sure what that would be like.

Probably, the kind of answers you're looking for aren't going to be gained by listening to sermons while sitting in the pews, but rather by face-to-face chats with highly qualified church leaders (or fellow parishioners), or various Christian Academics, or by attending Christian Apologetics meetings, or by seeking out Christian Philosopher organizations (if you can find one, that is).

Why do I say all of this? I say this because I am quite philosophically inclined in my approach to Christian faith as well, and I've pretty much given up on the notion that the mainstream social strata of people even care about higher level explanations. So, you won't find very many churches oriented toward that kind of exposition.

So, you'll probably find the most robust answers in academic books, podcasts, and online videos.

And of course, there are some of us who frequent these forums who are more than willing to chat with you about the 'higher order' ideas.

2PhiloVoid

Thanks, 2PhiloVoid. Very good points. Reminds me once a few years ago when I confided in a colleague and friend who is a Christian about my fear of death. I tried not to be too weighty and morose about it, but regardless she seemed completely uninterested in the question. I tried to approach the topic in a few different ways and she just said something like, "You die and if you've been saved you go to heaven, and if not, you don't. And that's it. What is there to talk about?"

I was kind of surprised because I had assumed that as a Christian she must be fascinated by the concepts of death and the meaning of life, and here I was as a fearful agnostic looking to talk about the ultimate point of life and death, and she was completely bored by the topic. It was a mild shock to me that apparently not all religious practitioners are absorbed in such issues.

Ah, naive middle age. But anyway I'm finding the discussion here on CF stimulating and resourceful.

 

[Ruien]

A Catholic service is not terribly philosophical, although you might find an occasional pastor who is that way. For the most part the lectionary influences what a homily will be about. That means that the regular three year schedule of OT reading, Psalm, NT reading, and gospel reading defines what is heard more than anything. In that way a good portion of the Bible is covered in a three year cycle. The homily is supposed to be exposition and application of that. Some pastors do better than others. But the service actually focuses on the Eucharist. That is key for Catholics in their services, not exposition or community or testimonials.

As to actual philosophy, the Catholic Church can excel, but that isn't normally part of a service. It's more background. John Paul II was a philosopher pope. His writings show it. We also have a recommended, not required but recommended, philosopher in Thomas Aquinas. And many philosophers like Peter Kreeft in a long line of Catholic philosophers whose faith informs their philosophy and whose philosophy allows them to explain the faith.

Thanks for the rec of Peter Kreeft. I had not heard of him but his work looks very interesting. I think I agree with him (at least on some perhaps superficial level) about the beauty of Catholic tradition.

Aquinas is interesting but in my limited experience his ideas are unconvincing. He seems to say that we mortals can know God only from effects to cause: we cannot directly know the definition or nature of God, so we have to be content to know God from His effects. Therefore the effects that we observe contain within them evidence about the nature of the cause. What is the unmoved mover? What is the existence which never entered or passed out of existence? What is the intelligence which allows beings to behave purposefully? --Look for the effects of such a being, and then see what you can surmise about it, Aquinas seems to say.

I like the empirical approach, but to my mind it leads me nowhere toward an understanding of God.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thanks, 2PhiloVoid. Very good points. Reminds me once a few years ago when I confided in a colleague and friend who is a Christian about my fear of death. I tried not to be too weighty and morose about it, but regardless she seemed completely uninterested in the question. I tried to approach the topic in a few different ways and she just said something like, "You die and if you've been saved you go to heaven, and if not, you don't. And that's it. What is there to talk about?"

I was kind of surprised because I had assumed that as a Christian she must be fascinated by the concepts of death and the meaning of life, and here I was as a fearful agnostic looking to talk about the ultimate point of life and death, and she was completely bored by the topic. It was a mild shock to me that apparently not all religious practitioners are absorbed in such issues.

Ah, naive middle age. But anyway I'm finding the discussion here on CF stimulating and resourceful.

I'm glad you're finding some relevant and thoughtful discussion here, Ruien. As you'll find out, there are a number of Christians here who are very much concerned with the issue of death and it's possible antidote. For some, in fact, it is this very exigency that played some part in their own act of reaching out to Christ in the first place. [me.]

Although I know that some Christians like the one you described above might 'poo-poo' the emotional significance this certain eventuality has for some of us, the funny thing is that the writer of the book of Hebrews actually affirms that the fear of death can be a factor which holds us down spiritually. (See Hebrews 2:14-15)

It is a bona-fide concern, and one reason to seek out the relevance of a risen savior, despite what the skeptics and other nay-sayers may say it all "merely is." Interestingly, Pascal said as much, too [i.e. that it is a bona-fide concern].

Good hearing from you.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[chevyontheriver]

Thanks for the rec of Peter Kreeft. I had not heard of him but his work looks very interesting. I think I agree with him (at least on some perhaps superficial level) about the beauty of Catholic tradition.

Indeed, Kreeft is interesting. It is said that Dr. Peter Kreeft only writes a book if the book he wants to read has not been written. One book of his I found useful, ironically from what you posted following, was 'Practical Theology: Spiritual Direction from St. Thomas Aquinas'. It drew from all of his works and was a mix of theological and philosophical insights whose overall effect on me was profound. The following is from the blurb on Amazon for the book:

From a lifetime of studying the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas, popular author Peter Kreeft says that his amazement has continually increased not only at Aquinas' theoretical, philosophical brilliance and sanity, but also at his personal, practical wisdom, his "existential bite." Yet this second dimension of St. Thomas has usually been eclipsed by the other. Kreeft wrote this book to help bring that sun out from its eclipse. He provides easily digestible samples of the religious wisdom of Aquinas.

Here are 359 pieces of wisdom from St. Thomas's masterpiece, the Summa Theologiae , which Kreeft says "are literally more valuable than all the kingdoms of this world because they will help you to attain 'the one thing needful,' or 'the greatest good' ", the ultimate end and purpose and meaning of life. Three of its names are "being a saint," "beatitude" ("supreme happiness") and "union with God." That was the principle for Kreeft in choosing which passages to use: do they help you to attain your ultimate end - sanctity, happiness, union with God? St. Thomas would have agreed with writer Leon Bloy, who often wrote that in the end "there is only one tragedy in life: not to have been a saint".

These 359 gold nuggets have helped Kreeft in the struggles of real life, to live in the real world, to grow closer to the Lord, and he hopes they will do the same for his readers. After each passage directly from Aquinas, Kreeft provides brief spiritual commentary to help explain it and apply it - practical, personal, existential, "livable" thoughts.

He has framed these readings as answers to questions that people actually ask their spiritual directors. Each answer is taken word for word from Aquinas.

Among the many topics Aquinas and Kreeft cover here include:

• The problem of evil
• Interpreting the Bible
• Love vs. knowledge
• Reconciling justice and mercy
• Human freedom and divine grace
• Angels and demons
• The need for theology
• Predestination and free will
• Three kinds of goods

"Its notoriously difficult to synopsize Aquinas on anything. However, if I were to choose someone to do the job well, it would be Peter Kreeft. Many will find this presentation helpful to develop their own replies to the questions that bother the minds of today's searchers."
- Romanus Cessario, O.P., Saint John's Seminary, Brighton, Mass.

Aquinas is interesting but in my limited experience his ideas are unconvincing. He seems to say that we mortals can know God only from effects to cause: we cannot directly know the definition or nature of God, so we have to be content to know God from His effects. Therefore the effects that we observe contain within them evidence about the nature of the cause. What is the unmoved mover? What is the existence which never entered or passed out of existence? What is the intelligence which allows beings to behave purposefully? --Look for the effects of such a being, and then see what you can surmise about it, Aquinas seems to say.

You seem to be referring to the 'proofs', which are only a part of his work. I'm not sure they actually prove, by the way.

I like the empirical approach, but to my mind it leads me nowhere toward an understanding of God.

I hear you, and an 'empirical only' deity isn't sufficient. That is far from Aquinas' God though. Give him another shot. Use either G.K. Chesterton's 'Dumb Ox' or Josef Pieper's 'Guide to Thomas Aquinas' as introductions.

 

[Ruien]

I'm glad you're finding some relevant and thoughtful discussion here, Ruien. As you'll find out, there are a number of Christians here who are very much concerned with the issue of death and it's possible antidote. For some, in fact, it is this very exigency that played some part in their own act of reaching out to Christ in the first place. [me.]

Although I know that some Christians like the one you described above might 'poo-poo' the emotional significance this certain eventuality has for some of us, the funny thing is that the writer of the book of Hebrews actually affirms that the fear of death can be a factor which holds us down spiritually. (See Hebrews 2:14-15)

It is a bona-fide concern, and one reason to seek out the relevance of a risen savior, despite what the skeptics and other nay-sayers may say it all "merely is." Interestingly, Pascal said as much, too [i.e. that it is a bona-fide concern].

Good hearing from you.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Yep, I might be in the middle of a wager myself. The thing is to truly believe rather than go through the motions and try to trick a higher power.

Anyway, here's something kinda funny that shows what a novice I am: I went to look up the verse you mentioned and opened my Bible to the contents page, looking for Hebrews. I read the contents of the Old Testament twice before wondering if my version (NIV) did not have this particular book. Then I read the New Testament contents.... With a title like "Hebrews" I had just assumed it would be an Old Testament book.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yep, I might be in the middle of a wager myself. The thing is to truly believe rather than go through the motions and try to trick a higher power.

Anyway, here's something kinda funny that shows what a novice I am: I went to look up the verse you mentioned and opened my Bible to the contents page, looking for Hebrews. I read the contents of the Old Testament twice before wondering if my version (NIV) did not have this particular book. Then I read the New Testament contents.... With a title like "Hebrews" I had just assumed it would be an Old Testament book.

Well, at least you're giving it the effort, that alone counts for something these days.

 

[Albion]

My question is: Which denominations are known for being philosophical, i.e. the services are more like expositions than testimonials, and the focus is on education and enlightenment rather than (just) community?

I know what you're saying. It would be the most liberal denominations like the Unitarians or Swedenborgians. It would not be the more conservative ones that either are liturgical in worship or, if not that, those who specialize in studying the Bible in detail, often verse by verse, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh day Adventists, or Calvary Chapel. But that's not what you are after, I realize.

The 'rub' might be that you can find what you're seeking but it's probably going to be very far towards the liberal end of ethics and social values, etc. etc. So if you are not of that persuasion, you may be stuck.