Philippians 3:3-11

Shekinah

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... for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His suffereings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurection from the dead. (Philippians 3:3-11)

I was a Christian for a number of years, but have been a Messianic for the last 3 years. As my understanding of so many of the passages of the Bible have changed recently, I am now trying to look at this passage with new eyes also.

What is Paul trying to say here? Help me understand? :confused:
 

Charlesinflorida

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I think Paul is speaking to Gentiles who had become over-enthusiastic toward Torah keeping to the point that they had a great deal of pride in connection with their observance and their undergoing circumcision. He addreses the Galatians on this same issue. Paul does not discount these things out of hat, but wants them to be seen in the light of Messiah. Yeshua first, ortherwise all our law keeping is just acts of self righteouness, (an impossible thing) or legalism. Though he above all would have the right to bost over these things, he counts them as worthless outside of faith in and the personal knowing of Messiah Yeshua.

Paul does not say thse are no longer to be done. If we look at the record, he circumcises Timothy (A gentile) and goes up to the temple and makes an offering after entering a nazzarite vow. Because Paul understands that the temple sacrifices , the blood offerings, and just about everything else were fore-shadowing Messiah, his death and resurrection. Even the High priest on Yom Kippur, who goes in to offer the atonement, we are relying on a mediator,(like Messiah) the high piest, to carry in the blood and his success in obtaining our peace with God is evidenced by his coming out of the Holy place alive, a foreshadowing of the resurrection.(of Messiah)

Those things that were valid as symbols of Yeshua before he came are still good symbols of Him after he came. So Paul takes part in the rituals just as he did before and keeps the feast days as before. I see no reason why he would discount circumcision, so long as it is kept in poper Messianic prospective. Pauls wants us to remember that we do not earn our salvation by obedience to these acts, and that there is no reason for pride in doing them. They all point to Messiah. And f we know Him, we have done what the rituals were meant to do, open our eyes to Him. (Or post ascention, remind us of Him)

Charles in Florida
 
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Trish1947

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I was a Christian for a number of years, but have been a Messianic for the last 3 years. As my understanding of so many of the passages of the Bible have changed recently, I am now trying to look at this passage with new eyes also.

What is Paul trying to say here? Help me understand? :confused:


If your belong to Christ, and you follow the law, you will have to make a choice on which one has saved you.. It is not the law that saved you, Christ Jesus did that by fulfilling the law for you. If you walk in the Spirit of Christ you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. I have checked this out in my own life. As soon as I try to follow the law on my own, and "leave" abiding in Jesus truth of fullfilling the law for me. I'll break the law in something eventually, by having thoughts, or something that I shouldnt have done. But if I abide in Him and He abides in me, and the truth of what he did for me, I check myself out after a period of time, checking myself against the law, and low and behold I didn't break them!! Amazing. Thats what we call walking in the Spirit. I hope this helps.
 
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theseed

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Paul is saying here that he has accomplished much and has many reasons to brag, but considers it all "dung" (literal translation), and that Christ is worth so much more than what Paul did as a Jew. Abraham believed and it was accredited him rightousness (Romans ?:??). So too we all gain rightousness through Christ becasue he is our substition, he paid for the wages of sin (Romans 3.23). And since Christ is our substitute, we will resurrect as He did.

This is a commone imagery in Paul's writings, we die with Christ and we live with Christ, the old passes away and the new comes (Titus 3.5; 2 Cor. 5.17)
 
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Higher Truth

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Charles:

If we look at the record, he circumcises Timothy (A gentile) and goes up to the temple and makes an offering after entering a nazzarite vow.

HT:

Paul did not complete any sacrifice, and Timothy was the son of a Jewish mother, therefore Jewish by halacha.

Acts 16
1 And he arrived in Derbe and Lystra. And behold, a certain disciple named Timothy was there, the son of a certain believing Jewish woman, but his father was a Greek.
2 This one was being testified of by the brothers in Lystra and Iconium.
3 Paul desired this one to go forth with him, and taking him he circumcised him, because of the Jews being in those places. For they all knew his father, that he was a Greek.


Charles:

Those things that were valid as symbols of Yeshua before he came are still good symbols of Him after he came.


HT:

So are you saying that if the third temple is built, that believers need to go there and do animal sacrifices? Please clarify.
 
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growingupinhim

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Trish1947 said:
If your belong to Christ, and you follow the law, you will have to make a choice on which one has saved you.. It is not the law that saved you, Christ Jesus did that by fulfilling the law for you. If you walk in the Spirit of Christ you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. I have checked this out in my own life. As soon as I try to follow the law on my own, and "leave" abiding in Jesus truth of this.. I'll break the law in something eventually, by having thoughts, or something that I shouldnt have done. But if I abide in Him and He abides in me, and the truth of what he did for me, I check myself out after a period of time, checking myself against the law, and low and behold I didn't break them!! Amazing. Thats what we call walking in the Spirit. I hope this helps.
I agree Jesus fullfilled the law completly! Of course the law is still valid..but now written in our hearts and minds! If we abide in Christ the vine..we will be fruitful branches! (unfruitful branches wither away and are throne into the fire(lake of fire!)Walk in the spirit and you will live righteouslly! pardon my spelling..
 
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Shekinah

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Trish1947 said:
If your belong to Christ, and you follow the law, you will have to make a choice on which one has saved you.. It is not the law that saved you, Christ Jesus did that by fulfilling the law for you.

Trish, I know without a doubt that I am saved because of Christ, and ONLY because of Christ. That is not why I keep Torah. I keep Torah because it is the instructions God gave on how to live a life that is sanctified, and set apart to Him, and as such, it is a very great delight to me to live this way.

I used to think that for someone to live according to Torah was legalistic. But legalism is a heart issue. It's about why we do what we do. It's not about what we do. And so, I can obey God's Torah without being legalistic about it, because it is meant to be a delight. See all of Tehillim/Psalm 119.

Blessings.
Wanda
 
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Trish1947

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Trish, I know without a doubt that I am saved because of Christ, and ONLY because of Christ. That is not why I keep Torah. I keep Torah because it is the instructions God gave on how to live a life that is sanctified, and set apart to Him, and as such, it is a very great delight to me to live this way.
Absolutely,, His Law has been written on your heart and mind.. The Law of Life and liberty, a joy.
 
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Charlesinflorida

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Higher Truth said:
Charles:

If we look at the record, he circumcises Timothy (A gentile) and goes up to the temple and makes an offering after entering a nazzarite vow.

HT:

Paul did not complete any sacrifice, and Timothy was the son of a Jewish mother, therefore Jewish by halacha.


First lets look at this a bit closer. Notice that the testimony of Paul is that he Keeps the law, all of it. He enters the Nazzarite vow, takes part in it "Purifying himself" And sacrifice was given or all of them, which includes Paul. And Paul has no problem with this.

Acts 21: [23] Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; [24] Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. [25] As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. [26] Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

Acts 16
1 And he arrived in Derbe and Lystra. And behold, a certain disciple named Timothy was there, the son of a certain believing Jewish woman, but his father was a Greek.
2 This one was being testified of by the brothers in Lystra and Iconium.
3 Paul desired this one to go forth with him, and taking him he circumcised him, because of the Jews being in those places. For they all knew his father, that he was a Greek.

Concerning Timothy, you are confusing present Halacha with first century Halacha. Today if your mother is a Jewess, then her child is considered a Jew and can make allyah. During the second temple times Timothy would be considered a Mamzer, a ******* child, and not a Jew. Notice too that it was his grandmother who taught him in the ways of the word.


Charles:

Those things that were valid as symbols of Yeshua before he came are still good symbols of Him after he came.

HT:

So are you saying that if the third temple is built, that believers need to go there and do animal sacrifices? Please clarify.

If you read Ezekiel and Zechariah you will find that during the millennial kingdom, all men will take part in the east days and the sacrifices, with the exception of one, (I'll let you figure this out :) ) Tabernacles will be the big one required for all nations representatives. And Tabernacles is the bloodiest of all.
Charles in Florida
 
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Higher Truth

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Charles:

f you read Ezekiel and Zechariah you will find that during the millennial kingdom, all men will take part in the east days and the sacrifices, with the exception of one, (I'll let you figure this out ) Tabernacles will be the big one required for all nations representatives. And Tabernacles is the bloodiest of all.

HT:

Let me rephrase this. Will there be a temple in the millenial reign, and will sacrifices be necessary for sin? I will respond to the other stuff shortly.
 
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Higher Truth

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Charles:

Concerning Timothy, you are confusing present Halacha with first century Halacha. Today if your mother is a Jewess, then her child is considered a Jew and can make allyah. During the second temple times Timothy would be considered a Mamzer, a ******* child, and not a Jew. Notice too that it was his grandmother who taught him in the ways of the word.


HT:

If I remember correctly, in the Scriptures, the lineage is often changed from patrilineal to matrilineal [I will have to check]. By your above statement, are you saying that the Judaism of today is not the same as first century Judaism, and If so , then why would you want to follow today's Judaism. Also mamzer is a Yiddish term, a language not yet developed in the first century, therefore it is a term that would not have been spoken. If you have one Jewish parent [mother or father], or even one Jewish grandparent, you are entitled to make Aliyah.
 
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Charlesinflorida

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Higher Truth said:
Charles:

f you read Ezekiel and Zechariah you will find that during the millennial kingdom, all men will take part in the east days and the sacrifices, with the exception of one, (I'll let you figure this out ) Tabernacles will be the big one required for all nations representatives. And Tabernacles is the bloodiest of all.

HT:

Let me rephrase this. Will there be a temple in the millenial reign, and will sacrifices be necessary for sin? I will respond to the other stuff shortly.

Yes there will be a temple on earth during the millennial reign, according to the prophecies. Will sacrifices be necessary? This would depend on how you view it. As Paul says the blood of animals never did cleanse anyone from sin in and of themselves. It is impossible. What the sacrifices did was make us aware that someone else was going to have to pay for our sins. (The messiah) This is why the one offering a sacrifice first laid his hands upon the animals head, to illustrate a transfering of sin to the one who would pay the price. (This was an image of transfeing our sins to Messiah, who would pay the debt for us.) Even after this was done, there was still need of an intercessor, to go before God and to plead our case. You see your placing hands on the animals head took place at the entrance to the tent of meeting, the outer court. Then the priest took the blood into the holy place and poured it out on the altar. This "pouring out" was symbolic of Messiahs Blood. Yeshua is the High priest that was pictured by the previous high piest from Levi. Today Yeshua makes intercession for us who trust him in faith to be the mediator of our salvation. In Hebrews it says that Yeshua has become our high priest, and enters not with the blood of animals but with his own precious blood which is poured out for us.

In the temple days, the sacrifice looked forward to the Messiah who would come and be our high priest and who would die for us. In the millennial kingdom I believe the sacrifices will look BACK at what was done for us. If you can imagine a world where Messiah sits upon the throne, and wars famine and disease is a thing of the past, it may be difficult for some to realize the price that was paid for us. The animal sacrifices will serve as an object lesson and a memorial for Yeshuas death.

Another aspect of the sacrifices is that there is a integrated table fellowship involved. The animals are roasted (BBQ) and eaten before the lord. It is a time of celebration with Him. A Time of Thanksgiving.

Charles in Florida
 
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Higher Truth

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Charles stated:

First lets look at this a bit closer. Notice that the testimony of Paul is that he Keeps the law, all of it. He enters the Nazzarite vow, takes part in it "Purifying himself" And sacrifice was given or all of them, which includes Paul. And Paul has no problem with this.

HT:

Let's take a closer look at the above statement:


Acts 18
18 And having remained many days more, having taken leave of the brothers, Paul sailed to Syria, having shaved his head in Cenchrea, for he *had* a vow. And Priscilla and Aquila were with him.

According to rabinic writings, one cuts off his hair when he completes the pre-determined length of his vow. The statement " for he had a vow" is past tense.This shows that he had completed his vow in another place, and not at the temple.

We do know that the four men still had a vow on themselves, but Paul had already terminated his in Cenchrea. We know that he went to the temple with them, and it appears that he paid for the ceremony as well. What was Paul hoping to achieve by all of this? There were many converts that were very zealous for the Law. There had been talk that Paul was becoming Lawless. Paul was in the business of soul winning, and went to great extremes to achieve this.

As a Jewish believer Paul could observe the customs of the Law as in. Acts 18:18, Acts 21:24

A Jewish believer could observe elements of the Law scripturally, provided:

He did not do so seeking justification, for that comes only through the sacrifice of Messiah.

He did not bind it upon others, especially non-Jews who at that time were under the Noachide Law .

Paul clearly stated why he did this in 1 Cor 9:

19 For being free of all, I enslaved myself to all, that I might gain the more.
20 And I became as a Jew to the Jews, that I might gain Jews; to those under Law as under Law, that I might gain those under Law;
21 to those without Law as without Law (not being without Law of God, but under the law of Christ), that I might gain those without Law.
22 I became to the weak as weak, that I might gain the weak. To all I have become all things, that in any and every way I might save some.
23 And I do this for the gospel, that I might become a fellow partaker of it.


And then there is this Scripture:

23 Then do this, what we say to you: There are four men who have a vow on themselves;
24 taking these, be purified with them, and be at expense on them, that they may shave the head. And all shall know that all what they have been told about you is nothing, but you yourself walk orderly, keeping the Law.
25 And as to the believing nations, we joined in writing, judging them to observe no such thing, except to keep themselves from both idol sacrifice, and the blood, and a thing strangled, and from fornication.


The definition of purify:
To cleanse themselves from Levitical pollution by means of prayers, abstinence, washings, sacrifice.

The above shows that there are different definitions of purify. The four men were also at a different stage of their vow than Paul was.

Here are some other scriptures to ponder:

Act 21:27 And when the *seven days* were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,

Act 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

Now if I remember correctly, the sacrifice for defilement was performed on the eighth day. Was it the same for completion of the vow? And if so, was the process ever completed?

As illustrated by these scriptures, if a Nazarite was defiled, the sacrifice was performed on the eighth day:

Num 6:10 And on the eighth day he shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons, to the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:

Num 6:11 And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, and make an atonement for him, for that he sinned by the dead, and shall hallow his head that same day.



So it appears that Paul did not perform any animal sacrifice. Also there is no where else in NT Scripture that even alludes to any other apostle doing this.


But we do find this in the Hebrew Scriptures:

Genesis 22

9 And they came to the place which God had said to him. And Abraham built there the altar, and arranged the wood. And he bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on the wood.
10 And Abraham put out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
11 And the Angel of Jehovah called to him from the heavens and said, Abraham! Abraham! And he said, Behold me.
12 And He said, Do not lay your hand on the boy, nor do anything to him. For now I know that you are a God-fearer, and you have not withheld your son, your only one, from Me.
13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked. And behold! A ram behind him was entangled in a thicket by its horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it for a burnt offering instead of his son.

HT:

In this passage God sent a ram to replace Abraham's son, and caused the sacrifice of Isaac to cease. It also appears that He did not allow Paul to partake in any sacrifice, if that was the intent.

Hebrews 7

26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us: holy, harmless, undefiled, and separated from sinners, and having become higher than the heavens;
27 who has no need, as do the high priests, to offer sacrifices day by day, first for His own sins, then for those of the people. For He did this once for all, offering up Himself.
28 For the Law makes men high priests who have infirmity, but the word of the oath-taking after the Law appoints the Son to the age, having been perfected.

HT:

The Messiah also instructed of this:

1 Corinthians 11

24 and giving thanks, He broke and said, Take, eat; this is My body which is broken on behalf of you; this do in remembrance of Me.
25 In the same way the cup also, after supping, saying, This cup is the New Covenant in My blood; as often as you drink, do this in remembrance of Me. See Luke 22:19, 20
 
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ShirChadash

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Trish1947 said:
Absolutely,, His Law has been written on your heart and mind.. The Law of Life and liberty, a joy.
And thankfully we have the written Torah to remind us of the things which should be second-nature to us in following His "Law", and to motivate us and spur us on to good works, which are accomplished in following the "Law" :)
 
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Higher Truth

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Charles:

Yes there will be a temple on earth during the millennial reign, according to the prophecies.

HT:

How does the above statement that line up with this Scripture:

Revelation 21

22 And I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, even the Lamb.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, nor of the moon, that they might shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it, even its lamp is the Lamb.
24 And the nations of the ones saved will walk in its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
25 And its gates may not at all be shut by day, for no night will be there.
26 And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.
27 And all profaning may not at all enter into it, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only the ones having been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb.
 
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Charlesinflorida

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Higher Truth said:
Charles:

Yes there will be a temple on earth during the millennial reign, according to the prophecies.

HT:

How does the above statement that line up with this Scripture:

Revelation 21

22 And I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, even the Lamb.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, nor of the moon, that they might shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it, even its lamp is the Lamb.
24 And the nations of the ones saved will walk in its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
25 And its gates may not at all be shut by day, for no night will be there.
26 And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.
27 And all profaning may not at all enter into it, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only the ones having been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb.

HT,

What you have quoted here is the city, New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven at the END (after) the thousand year reign of Messiah.

The Millennal Kingdom is an earthly Kingdom with Messiah Yeshua upon Davids throne and Israel ruling over the nations. The Throne of Messiah is in Jerusalem (earthly Jerusalem), but his abode, his place of residence is in heaven (New Jerusalem). We who are saved by His atoning blood will live with him in this glorious city, (New Jerusalem) which is described in this passage you quoted. Because this is where he went to. And he went to prepare a place for us there so that we may see Him in his glory and be with him. No flesh and blood can enter this city. Only those who have resurrected glorified bodies can enter. However we will be able to come and go between the New Jerusalem and Earth and will be active players in the administration of the Millennial Kingdom. Many will be sent to teach and reinstate Torah, for "the Torah will go forth from Tzion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."

Unlike this heavenly Jerusalem, the earth will be populated by those who have survived the tribulation and escaped the wrath of God. These are mortal people, still in their flesh bodies. But they will live under the Kingship of Messiah. And there will be great benefits, such as longevity. It says if a man dies at 100 years old he would be concidered a child or under a curse. Their will be peace on the earth. It will be restoed to a condition which reflects its former state.

So. . . there is no Temple in New Jerusalem, where we will live with the Lord. But there will be a temple on Earth where He will reign over the nations.

ZEC 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. [17] If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain. [18] If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD* will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. [19] This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Charles In Florida
 
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