Pews at your church?

[theoforos]

The typical layout here is to have some benches or chairs along the walls, but usually no chairs in the middle of the church. There are no Orthodox churches with pews in Finland, but there are a few churches that have a couple of rows of chairs also in the middle of the churches, usually in the back.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Wow! Thanks for all the responses. I remember discussing pews in another thread, but it wasn't about them, so I decided to make a thread on this because I was surprised at how many of the churches you all attend don't have pews! LOL Every Greek Orthodox Church I've attended has rows of pews and built-in kneelers that flip down when it's time to kneel. St. George's Greek Orthodox Church in Shreveport, LA, Sts Markella and Demetrios in Ft. Walton Beach, FL, The Assumption in Dayton, OH, Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church in Spokane, WA, and now my current Church: Archangel Michael Greek Orthodox Church in Colorado Springs. All have pews, and so I expect to see pews! I like them. I haven't been in a church that doesn't have them, believe it or not, so it would be very different and would take acclimating to a church with no pews for me. Whew. I still can't believe I and a few others are the only ones that have pews!!!

eta: We stand, sit, and kneel in our church (and all the ones I've been to listed above), so there are times when one sits: like during the Epistle reading and some of the basic prayers the priest does, and during his homily. We stand for the rest of the service, and kneel once during the service.

The problem with having pews is that it is impossible to make prostrations. Yes, many churches with pews have kneelers. But kneeling isn't the principle liturgical action in the Orthodox Church; prostrating is. In jurisdictions where pews are normative traditional prostrations have largely died out.

Not bashing anyones jurisdiction, I am just saying...

M.

 

[wynd]

The church I attend has rows of the armless chairs that you might see in a restaurant. For the Lenten weekday services the priest will stack most of them up against the back wall to make room for prostrations. I am used to standing the whole time so I probably would prefer chairs only for those who need them.

The church in my hometown that I go to when I'm there has pews complete with well-used kneelers. The first Sunday I went there I wasn't sure what was going on when everyone knelt during the Liturgy.

 

[Dorothea]

The problem with having pews is that it is impossible to make prostrations. Yes, many churches with pews have kneelers. But kneeling isn't the principle liturgical action in the Orthodox Church; prostrating is. In jurisdictions where pews are normative traditional prostrations have largely died out.

Not bashing anyones jurisdiction, I am just saying...

M.

Yes, I noticed prostrations more in the Antiochian church my sister and parents go to in Shreveport, LA. We don't do prostrations much, at least not at the pews. Usually coming up for Communion or kissing icons and the such, but not in the pews. I didn't realize it was necessary or a norm. Kneeling isn't a liturgical act? It's been done in every Orthodox Church I've been in, including the Antiochian Church I used to attend with my parents and sister and her family. I don't get it. I do know that Russian Churches don't have pews and all, and we realize this, but the Antiochian church my sister and parents go to has chairs in it. The no pews we just figured was a cultural thing, if that makes any sense. My mom did say that in Greece, there are chairs, but not always.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Yes, I noticed prostrations more in the Antiochian church my sister and parents go to in Shreveport, LA. We don't do prostrations much, at least not at the pews. Usually coming up for Communion or kissing icons and the such, but not in the pews. I didn't realize it was necessary or a norm. Kneeling isn't a liturgical act? It's been done in every Orthodox Church I've been in, including the Antiochian Church I used to attend with my parents and sister and her family. I don't get it. I do know that Russian Churches don't have pews and all, and we realize this, but the Antiochian church my sister and parents go to has chairs in it. The no pews we just figured was a cultural thing, if that makes any sense. My mom did say that in Greece, there are chairs, but not always.

Prostrations are called for according to our service books. Kneeling is called for but it is much, much rarer. The Kneeling Vespers of Pentecost and during the Gospel readings on Holy Thursday from what I can remember. But prostrations are called for during many more services: weekday liturgies during the consecration, on the Feast of the Elevation of the Cross throughout the service, throught the services of Lent and Holy Week and others.

You might not know this but kneeling on Sunday was forbidden by an ecumenical council but it has become quite common in certain jurisdictions with kneelers. Doesn't make them uncanoncial but it is not Traditional.

M.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Also, Orthodox Churches Traditionally do not have pews. There are chairs for the portions of services where we may sit but pews are a Western thing.

M.

 

[theoforos]

You might not know this but kneeling on Sunday was forbidden by an ecumenical council but it has become quite common in certain jurisdictions with kneelers. Doesn't make them uncanoncial but it is not Traditional.

Actually I don't think that's the fault of the pews and the kneelers because also prostrations count as kneeling (you kneel before you put your face against the floor), and prostrations on Sunday are common also in the Russian tradition where there are no pews or kneelers. I don't personally know about so many other traditions, but someone who's got experience of many different local traditions said kneeling/prostrating on Sundays is practiced pretty much everywhere in the traditional Orthodox countries. They say it's because at some point of time it became unusual to go to church except on Sundays and if they wanted to prostrate in the church they had to do it on a Sunday.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Orthodoxy = full body worship!

Mary

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Actually I don't think that's the fault of the pews and the kneelers because also prostrations count as kneeling (you kneel before you put your face against the floor), and prostrations on Sunday are common also in the Russian tradition where there are no pews or kneelers. I don't personally know about so many other traditions, but someone who's got experience of many different local traditions said kneeling/prostrating on Sundays is practiced pretty much everywhere in the traditional Orthodox countries. They say it's because at some point of time it became unusual to go to church except on Sundays and if they wanted to prostrate in the church they had to do it on a Sunday.

Well at this point I have only worshipped in the US. I have worshipped in OCA (predominantly Russian and convert), GOARCH, ROCOR and Antiochian (convert and Arab) churches. The ones with kneelers and pews kneel on Sundays and in the ones without pews there is no kneeling or prostrating on Sundays. One is not more Orthodox or even pious than the other since that is a matter of the heart. But there is a reason that kneeling and prostrating is traditionally forbidden on Sundays: it is the day of Resurrection.

Maybe when people go to church on weekdays more and have an opportunity to prostrate they will appreciate the old practice more. I have heard that explanation for prostrations on Sundays as well.

M.

 

[Shubunkin]

We have chairs, but we do not have an actual church building, yet. We have a rented store front building right now. We are saving our pennies, nickels, and dimes toward buying our own building with property.

I agree that doing prostrations in a row of chairs is not ideal.

 

[Dorothea]

Prostrations are called for according to our service books. Kneeling is called for but it is much, much rarer. The Kneeling Vespers of Pentecost and during the Gospel readings on Holy Thursday from what I can remember. But prostrations are called for during many more services: weekday liturgies during the consecration, on the Feast of the Elevation of the Cross throughout the service, throught the services of Lent and Holy Week and others.

You might not know this but kneeling on Sunday was forbidden by an ecumenical council but it has become quite common in certain jurisdictions with kneelers. Doesn't make them uncanoncial but it is not Traditional.

M.

I think it may be a cultural/ethnic thing, too. I asked my mom who's from Greece if prostrations are a regular occurrence in the Greek Churches in Greece. She said on special occasions and in front of special icons being honored or are special because of historical or healing purposes, the prostrations are done, but in regular DL services, it's not as common. This is the same here in the GOC in America. I'm thinking maybe it's just a cultural issue on how much prostratiing is done depending on your background in being Russian, Serbian, Greek, or Syrian or something like that. Mom said the Russian Churches are more strict that the Greek ones.

We only kneel on Sundays during the DL while the priest is consecrating the bread, preparing for Communion. We kneel and pray at that time, except 40 days following Penecost.

 

[Khaleas]

Actually I don't think that's the fault of the pews and the kneelers because also prostrations count as kneeling (you kneel before you put your face against the floor), and prostrations on Sunday are common also in the Russian tradition where there are no pews or kneelers. I don't personally know about so many other traditions, but someone who's got experience of many different local traditions said kneeling/prostrating on Sundays is practiced pretty much everywhere in the traditional Orthodox countries. They say it's because at some point of time it became unusual to go to church except on Sundays and if they wanted to prostrate in the church they had to do it on a Sunday.

Yea, but someone in Finland needs to figure out that granite isn't exactly the most comfortable thing to prostrate on either...
If I'll be at Valamo for Holy Week next year I'm bringing kneepads!!! No joke!

 

[Dorothea]

Yea, but someone in Finland needs to figure out that granite isn't exactly the most comfortable thing to prostrate on either...
If I'll be at Valamo for Holy Week next year I'm bringing kneepads!!! No joke!

 

[theoforos]

But there is a reason that kneeling and prostrating is traditionally forbidden on Sundays: it is the day of Resurrection.

I know, and the canons should not be neglected, but I still can't help looking forward to Pentecost when we start prostrating again after Pascha. I like prostrating because it makes your whole person participate in the worship, including your body. If we stop prostrating on Sundays, as might very well happen considering the existing and valid canons, I guess I'll have to start going to the liturgy every Saturday...

 

[theoforos]

Yea, but someone in Finland needs to figure out that granite isn't exactly the most comfortable thing to prostrate on either...
If I'll be at Valamo for Holy Week next year I'm bringing kneepads!!! No joke!

Like the old-believers? I think some even have knee pads sown in their pants. Honestly I agree with you, and even if you don't prostrate a hard floor makes your feet get tired much sooner. I'm glad most churches over here have carpets that cover major part of the floors.

By the way, I think it was last summer when I was visiting the monastery, early one morning as I was still half a sleep but yet somehow managed to crawl to the church, when I prostrated I hit my forehead so hard to that granite floor that people turned around to look what happened as the sound of my empty head hitting that floor echoed in the church.

 

[Khaleas]

Like the old-believers? I think some even have knee pads sown in their pants. Honestly I agree with you, and even if you don't prostrate a hard floor makes your feet get tired much sooner. I'm glad most churches over here have carpets that cover major part of the floors.

By the way, I think it was last summer when I was visiting the monastery, early one morning as I was still half a sleep but yet somehow managed to crawl to the church, when I prostrated I hit my forehead so hard to that granite floor that people turned around to look what happened as the sound of my empty head hitting that floor echoed in the church.

Been there and done that too (and last time I smacked my head in the rail by Theotokos of Konevets when I got up)... but the worst is when someone has sand under their shoes and they wander in and it's like nails on chalkboard... Waaahhhhh...

 

[Dorothea]

Like the old-believers? I think some even have knee pads sown in their pants. Honestly I agree with you, and even if you don't prostrate a hard floor makes your feet get tired much sooner. I'm glad most churches over here have carpets that cover major part of the floors.

By the way, I think it was last summer when I was visiting the monastery, early one morning as I was still half a sleep but yet somehow managed to crawl to the church, when I prostrated I hit my forehead so hard to that granite floor that people turned around to look what happened as the sound of my empty head hitting that floor echoed in the church.

Been there and done that too (and last time I smacked my head in the rail by Theotokos of Konevets when I got up)... but the worst is when someone has sand under their shoes and they wander in and it's like nails on chalkboard... Waaahhhhh...

You two are too funny.

 

[Khaleas]

You two are too funny.

Prostrations are dangerous business in Finland LOL...

 

[InnerPhyre]

Pews are totally out of place in Orthodox Worship as far as I can tell. I'm not ripping on people who have them. It's just....how do you make prostrations with pews or even rows of chairs? It doesn't work. We have benches along the walls for the elderly, pregnant, and infirm and we all sit on them when Father is preaching.

 

[nutroll]

I go to a church with pews, and I don't have any problem with it. Many of the members stand during the entire service (except for the homily), but for the elderly, the infirm, and children I think it is useful. I normally try to stand for the entire service despite problems with my back and my knees caused by my flat feet. But on Pascha I was so glad that we have pews. After chanting for every service during Holy Week, and standing through it all, I couldn't stand any more. My legs and my back just wouldn't cooperate. During evening services, Lenten services, and most of Holy Week, there is plenty of room in the aisles for everyone to prostrate. It is only during Holy Thursday evening and Holy Friday evening and the Feast of the Elevation of the Cross, and Palm Sunday that there are enough people and not enough room to prostrate. And yet, I would venture to say that most of the people who would be inclined to prostrate during those services were there for the other services and know where to sit so they can get out and prostrate. I think the real problem with pews is that they can be overused. Churches that have pews will sometimes get to the point that everyone sits for about half the service. In those cases, however, I think the priest really ought to try to change that by simply asking everyone to stand. My final point is that I do think that pews are nice for children. When I was a kid at St. Vladimir's Seminary, the chapel would be completely packed on certain days, and then church becomes nothing but a sea of legs. I've seen kids in churches with pews standing on the pews when adults are standing. If it helps them to participate more fully in the services, then I am glad for it.