Personal Identity and International Politics

mindlight

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There are 5 ways that a persons identity can be formed or verified:

1) Genetics - the physical facts
2) Psychological identity - what the person feels about themselves
3) Choice - what the person chooses to be
4) Community - what society says a person is or deep social historical traditions and roots
5) Calling - what God says a person is and calls them to

By the above I would say factually, socially, willingly, subconsciously that I am a white heterosexual male living in the Western world. Relative to Gods high standards like everybody else I know that I am a sinner but one with certain callings and by salvation one with a future with God.

Identity has come to form a major part of political discussion in recent years and indeed underpins many of the debates people have. A number of public identity projects have made centre stage:

1) People who have identified as gay have demanded "marriage" equality for instance.
2) The whole transsexual discussion is now also becoming significant.
3) Jihadists religious identity demands a certain violent lifestyle that they inflict on the rest of us.
4) A Jordanian or Egyptian living in Israel identifies as a Palestinian even though there has never been such a place.
5) Blacks and Hispanics in the USA will mainly see voting Democrat as a part of their racial identity

How do we decide what is a valid identity and what is not?
Who decides?
Should we attempt to enforce identity or merely accept it as given?
How would you prioritise the above 5 criteria for instance?
 
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Tom 1

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There are 5 ways that a persons identity can be formed or verified:

1) Genetics - the physical facts
2) Psychological identity - what the person feels about themselves
3) Choice - what the person chooses to be
4) Community - what society says a person is or deep social historical traditions and roots
5) Calling - what God says a person is and calls them to

By the above I would say factually, socially, willingly, subconsciously that I am a white heterosexual male living in the Western world. Relative to Gods high standards like everybody else I know that I am a sinner but one with certain callings and by salvation one with a future with God.

Identity has come to form a major part of political discussion in recent years and indeed underpins many of the debates people have. A number of public identity projects have made centre stage:

1) People who have identified as gay have demanded "marriage" equality for instance.
2) The whole transsexual discussion is now also becoming significant.
3) Jihadists religious identity demands a certain violent lifestyle that they inflict on the rest of us.
4) A Jordanian or Egyptian living in Israel identifies as a Palestinian even though there has never been such a place. A Kurd living in Iraq identifies as a Kurd from Kurdistan even though there has never been such a place.
5) Blacks and Hispanics in the USA will mainly see voting Democrat as a part of their racial identity

How do we decide what is a valid identity and what is not?
Who decides?
Should we attempt to enforce identity or merely accept it as given?
How would you prioritise the above 5 criteria for instance?

The most challenging for me is what is my identity in Christ. I see that as something that supersedes all of the others and to some degree involves struggling against them.
 
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mindlight

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The most challenging for me is what is my identity in Christ. I see that as something that supersedes all of the others and to some degree involves struggling against them.

Christ would never be dishonest or unhelpful about any of the other 4 criteria also. His interventions into your subconscious, genetics and community are more likely to be healing or restorative than harmful. For those who choose Christ it is a win win package of true identity affirmation.

Of course a Muslim Jihadist will also claim he is identifying as one who submits to God above all. His zeal is for God and willingness to sacrifice all that He is is because he identifies as Gods tool or weopan. Ultimately it is that identity that drives him to do things like suicide bombings or mass killings. He is Gods weopan and God has said fire in this direction. By the Muslim Quran there are serious reasons to doubt that killing innocent people, even children is of God and yet these peoples identity seems to supercede even their own religious texts.

How do we deal with strong identities that are so obviously false and toxic to others?
 
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Tom 1

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Christ would never be dishonest or unhelpful about any of the other 4 criteria also. His interventions into your subconscious, genetics and community are more likely to be healing or restorative than harmful. For those who choose Christ it is a win win package of true identity affirmation.

Of course a Muslim Jihadist will also claim he is identifying as one who submits to God above all. His zeal is for God and willingness to sacrifice all that He is is because he identifies as Gods tool or weopan. Ultimately it is that identity that drives him to do things like suicide bombings or mass killings. He is Gods weopan and God has said fire in this direction. By the Muslim Quran there are serious reasons to doubt that killing innocent people, even children is of God and yet these peoples identity seems to supercede even their own religious texts.

How do we deal with strong identities that are so obviously false and toxic to others?

Big question. To my mind it’s about coming into contact with God. I can see in my own life that God has, over time, played a part in changing aspects of my character. That has been a slow process, and an ongoing one.
 
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mindlight said in post #1:

People who have identified as gay . . .

From a Biblical standpoint, no one should do that. For it would be like identifying as adulterous, in that acting sexually on gay affections is as much a sin as acting sexually on adulterous affections.

For Romans 1:26 is referring to lesbians, who have unnatural, sexual affections for each other:

Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature . . .

And Romans 1:27 is referring to male homosexuals, commonly called "gay", who have unnatural, sexual lust for each other:

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Here the "recompence of their error" at the time that Romans 1:27 was written in the 1st century AD could have been hepatitis-type infections, but it would also include, in principle, the horrible AIDS plague in our own time.

--

It is sometimes asked: "But hasn't homosexuality been proven to be genetic?"

The answer is that even if it could be, so could alcoholism, criminal violence, and schizophrenia. Human genes in their current, fallen, corrupted state have nothing to do with proving what's moral, or what's good mental health.

But while homosexual acts are sinful (Romans 1:26-27), we too easily forget homosexual acts (Genesis 19:4-5) weren't the only sin of Sodom. For: "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy" (Ezekiel 16:49). How many of us Christians who love to rail against homosexuality are nonetheless "just like Sodom" with regard to our pride, our fullness of bread, our abundance of idleness, and our refusal to strengthen the hand of the poor and needy? How many of us love to place ourselves above homosexuals, even though, even if we're completely free from all sin, we will still be judged for our self-righteousness (Luke 18:9-14)?

But, at the same time, the truth must never be discounted that homosexual acts, if they aren't repented of, will, like any other unrepentant sin, keep people from ultimate salvation (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). But people aren't set free from homosexual desires, or any other sinful desires, through legal restrictions placed on them. For legal restrictions have no power against sinful desires, but can even help to revive and inflame them (Romans 7:8-9). Only Jesus Christ has the power to set people free from the sin of homosexuality, or any other sin (John 8:34-36).

The list of sins which will ultimately keep even Christians out of the Kingdom of God (if they don't repent from them) is quite long (Galatians 5:19-21), and some of these sins are common in the Church today. So why is there such a focus by some Christians on homosexuality alone? Why doesn't the Church also focus on, for example, its own very-widespread practice of divorce and 2nd-marriage adultery (Mark 10:11-12)?

mindlight said in post #1:

People who have identified as gay have demanded "marriage" equality for instance.

It is sometimes asked: "Since it is wrong for Christians to be against miscegenation, isn't it also wrong for them to be against same-sex marriage?"

The answer is No. For while the Bible isn't against miscegenation (Numbers 12), it is against homosexuality (Romans 1:26-27). So when the U.S. government struck down anti-miscegenation state laws in the southern U.S., it wasn't going against Biblical Christianity. But if the government ever forces Christians to support same-sex marriages, it will be going against the Bible. And so it will become anti-Christian, helping to prepare the way for the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), and his Satanic, one-world religion (Revelation 13:4-18).

One part of the future Antichrist's (Gnostic) religion will be to forbid marriages outright (1 Timothy 4:3). And legalizing same-sex marriage is just the first step toward this goal. For the next step will be to legalize polygamy, that is, to allow whatever number of people, whether male or female, in any combination, to enter "group marriages" (for example, consisting of 3 women, or 3 men, or 6 women and 4 men, etc.). Then the next step will be to declare the whole idea of marriage as "obsolete". Indeed, it will even be declared to be "evil" from the Gnostic (that is, the Antichrist) point of view (cf. 1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7), which sees the whole idea of a physical existence, especially one which forms new people into physical bodies (that is, which forms offspring through marriages) as an abomination.

This isn't to say that all people who support same-sex marriages are Satanic Gnostics. Instead, some people could simply (yet still mistakenly) think that God supports homosexuality, just as many U.S. Southerners of old simply (yet still mistakenly) thought that God supports racism.

mindlight said in post #1:

The whole transsexual discussion is now also becoming significant.

By transsexual, do you mean the same thing as transgender?

If so, it has indeed become significant, in that the idea of it has actually gained a major foothold in liberal thought, even internationally.

But, in reality, there is no such thing as transgenderism, just as there is no such thing as transracialism.

As an example, imagine that a white man walks into an all-black, inner-city neighborhood, and is surrounded by some black men.

"What are you doing here, cracker?"

"I'm not a cracker. I'm a proud black man."

"No, you aren't. Look at your face. You're a white man."

"My face doesn't matter. What matters is I identify as black. So I am black."

"No, you aren't. But you are crazy. Now get out of here and leave us alone. You're scaring the children with your crazy talk."

And they could escort him out of the neighborhood and tell him never to return.

Now imagine a different example, where a man walks naked into a girls' locker room filled with girls. They all start screaming when they see him.

"Don't scream. I'm a girl too."

"No, you aren't! Look at your... your thing. You're a man!"

"My thing doesn't matter. What matters is I identify as a girl. So I am a girl."

"Help! Help! A crazy man is here!"

The girls' coach could then rush in.

"You need to get out of here."

"But I identify as a girl."

"Sorry, mate. God has identified you as a man. Also, the police are on their way."

The man could then be arrested and thrown into jail, or into an insane asylum.

--

Someone might ask: "But what about the man's feelings that he is a girl?"

They are just a neurotic fantasy, just as it would be a neurotic fantasy for a white man to say that he is a black man. It is absurd on its face.

Also, transgenderism is a type of homosexuality: wanting to have sex with the same gender that you are, but pretending that you are of the opposite gender.

Because homosexuality is a sin (Romans 1:26-27), transgenderism is a sin.

--

Someone might ask: "But what about diversity?"

God loves diversity, which is proven by all of the different colors, heights, weights, and personalities of the people whom He has created. But diversity doesn't mean that a man is actually a woman just because he feels like one. He is still a man. But there can be diversity within maleness, ranging from the ultra-macho male to the ultra-effeminate male. The latter can still identify as male, for he can simply be one type of male within a diverse range. It is absurd for transgenderism to claim to be for "diversity" while it railroads people into sexual stereotypes.

mindlight said in post #1:

Jihadists religious identity demands a certain violent lifestyle that they inflict on the rest of us.

This brings to mind that instead of spending billions of dollars on physical weapons and soldiers to fight ISIS, the world should be spending all that money on ideological warfare against ISIS (and its ilk), defeating its very ideology of violence in the minds of its leaders and recruits. For the pen is mightier than the sword.

And the Mother of all Ideological Bombs against ISIS (and its ilk) would be an all-out, worldwide promotion of Islamic Pacifism, supported and maintained by highly-respected Islamic scholars all around the world who aren't terrorists.

But, sadly, the U.S. will never go for any such campaign. For its government is controlled by the Military-Industrial Complex, which makes hundreds of billions of dollars every year off of continual warfare, formerly against Communism, and now against Islamic terrorism. This Complex absolutely loves ISIS (and its ilk), for it continually fills their bank accounts to overflowing.

Just another proof that:

1 Timothy 6:10 . . . the love of money is the root of all evil . . .

mindlight said in post #1:

A Jordanian or Egyptian living in Israel identifies as a Palestinian even though there has never been such a place.

There has been such a place, but there hasn't been any such genetic identity.

For the Palestinians are simply Arabs, not their own race which needs their own nation-state. They can live on any Arab land within the truly gigantic Arab territory stretching all the way from Oman to Morocco. And this Arab territory includes Jordan and Egypt.

--

Also, regarding vehement, anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian persons:

Why should someone become hyper-concerned about the Israelis' dispossession of such a small sliver of the Arabs' total land, which stretches all the way from Oman to Morocco? Why not also become hyper-concerned about, for example, the U.S.'s and Canada's dispossession of almost all of the American Indians' land, stretching across North America? Or Australia's and New Zealand's dispossession of almost all of the aborigines' land? Also, why would someone completely reject the Jews' ancestral/historical/Biblical claim to the land of Canaan? Is it possible that anti-Semitism is involved in some way? Why can't the Jews have even such a small piece of land for themselves, especially in light of what happened to them in the Holocaust?
 
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mindlight

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From a Biblical standpoint, no one should do that. For it would be like identifying as adulterous, in that acting sexually on gay affections is as much a sin as acting sexually on adulterous affections.

For Romans 1:26 is referring to lesbians, who have unnatural, sexual affections for each other:

Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature . . .

And Romans 1:27 is referring to male homosexuals, commonly called "gay", who have unnatural, sexual lust for each other:

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Here the "recompence of their error" at the time that Romans 1:27 was written in the 1st century AD could have been hepatitis-type infections, but it would also include, in principle, the horrible AIDS plague in our own time.

--

It is sometimes asked: "But hasn't homosexuality been proven to be genetic?"

The answer is that even if it could be, so could alcoholism, criminal violence, and schizophrenia. Human genes in their current, fallen, corrupted state have nothing to do with proving what's moral, or what's good mental health.

But while homosexual acts are sinful (Romans 1:26-27), we too easily forget homosexual acts (Genesis 19:4-5) weren't the only sin of Sodom. For: "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy" (Ezekiel 16:49). How many of us Christians who love to rail against homosexuality are nonetheless "just like Sodom" with regard to our pride, our fullness of bread, our abundance of idleness, and our refusal to strengthen the hand of the poor and needy? How many of us love to place ourselves above homosexuals, even though, even if we're completely free from all sin, we will still be judged for our self-righteousness (Luke 18:9-14)?

But, at the same time, the truth must never be discounted that homosexual acts, if they aren't repented of, will, like any other unrepentant sin, keep people from ultimate salvation (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). But people aren't set free from homosexual desires, or any other sinful desires, through legal restrictions placed on them. For legal restrictions have no power against sinful desires, but can even help to revive and inflame them (Romans 7:8-9). Only Jesus Christ has the power to set people free from the sin of homosexuality, or any other sin (John 8:34-36).

The list of sins which will ultimately keep even Christians out of the Kingdom of God (if they don't repent from them) is quite long (Galatians 5:19-21), and some of these sins are common in the Church today. So why is there such a focus by some Christians on homosexuality alone? Why doesn't the Church also focus on, for example, its own very-widespread practice of divorce and 2nd-marriage adultery (Mark 10:11-12)?



It is sometimes asked: "Since it is wrong for Christians to be against miscegenation, isn't it also wrong for them to be against same-sex marriage?"

The answer is No. For while the Bible isn't against miscegenation (Numbers 12), it is against homosexuality (Romans 1:26-27). So when the U.S. government struck down anti-miscegenation state laws in the southern U.S., it wasn't going against Biblical Christianity. But if the government ever forces Christians to support same-sex marriages, it will be going against the Bible. And so it will become anti-Christian, helping to prepare the way for the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), and his Satanic, one-world religion (Revelation 13:4-18).

One part of the future Antichrist's (Gnostic) religion will be to forbid marriages outright (1 Timothy 4:3). And legalizing same-sex marriage is just the first step toward this goal. For the next step will be to legalize polygamy, that is, to allow whatever number of people, whether male or female, in any combination, to enter "group marriages" (for example, consisting of 3 women, or 3 men, or 6 women and 4 men, etc.). Then the next step will be to declare the whole idea of marriage as "obsolete". Indeed, it will even be declared to be "evil" from the Gnostic (that is, the Antichrist) point of view (cf. 1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7), which sees the whole idea of a physical existence, especially one which forms new people into physical bodies (that is, which forms offspring through marriages) as an abomination.

This isn't to say that all people who support same-sex marriages are Satanic Gnostics. Instead, some people could simply (yet still mistakenly) think that God supports homosexuality, just as many U.S. Southerners of old simply (yet still mistakenly) thought that God supports racism.

In essence no one is called to be gay or any other kind of sinner for that matter. When a person places their favourite sin at the heart of their identity they reduce themselves to something less than what God made. A man is not gay , not an adulterer , not just a divorcee. He is a sinner begging for Gods grace and mercy. It is probably true that some people have searched to the depths of their subconscious and found a gay face staring back at them. It may even be true that some people are born broken and to some extent disposed to one sin or another. But when the heart of our identity is Christ and when our choices are in unison with his will they we will seek to grow into him. All of us are weak in one area or another and it here that we experience the pain that comes from denying our sinful Adamic nature that we might be born again in Christ.

By transsexual, do you mean the same thing as transgender?

If so, it has indeed become significant, in that the idea of it has actually gained a major foothold in liberal thought, even internationally.

But, in reality, there is no such thing as transgenderism, just as there is no such thing as transracialism.

As an example, imagine that a white man walks into an all-black, inner-city neighborhood, and is surrounded by some black men.

"What are you doing here, cracker?"

"I'm not a cracker. I'm a proud black man."

"No, you aren't. Look at your face. You're a white man."

"My face doesn't matter. What matters is I identify as black. So I am black."

"No, you aren't. But you are crazy. Now get out of here and leave us alone. You're scaring the children with your crazy talk."

And they could escort him out of the neighborhood and tell him never to return.

Now imagine a different example, where a man walks naked into a girls' locker room filled with girls. They all start screaming when they see him.

"Don't scream. I'm a girl too."

"No, you aren't! Look at your... your thing. You're a man!"

"My thing doesn't matter. What matters is I identify as a girl. So I am a girl."

"Help! Help! A crazy man is here!"

The girls' coach could then rush in.

"You need to get out of here."

"But I identify as a girl."

"Sorry, mate. God has identified you as a man. Also, the police are on their way."

The man could then be arrested and thrown into jail, or into an insane asylum.

--

Someone might ask: "But what about the man's feelings that he is a girl?"

They are just a neurotic fantasy, just as it would be a neurotic fantasy for a white man to say that he is a black man. It is absurd on its face.

Also, transgenderism is a type of homosexuality: wanting to have sex with the same gender that you are, but pretending that you are of the opposite gender.

Because homosexuality is a sin (Romans 1:26-27), transgenderism is a sin.

--

Someone might ask: "But what about diversity?"

God loves diversity, which is proven by all of the different colors, heights, weights, and personalities of the people whom He has created. But diversity doesn't mean that a man is actually a woman just because he feels like one. He is still a man. But there can be diversity within maleness, ranging from the ultra-macho male to the ultra-effeminate male. The latter can still identify as male, for he can simply be one type of male within a diverse range. It is absurd for transgenderism to claim to be for "diversity" while it railroads people into sexual stereotypes.

The examples you shared where psychological identity is in clear defiance of physical reality are examples of mental illness in my view. We help noone by affirming their madness. But there are also people for whom the physical reality is not clear. I believe the bible would call such people eunuchs. Noone is suggesting that we should not show Christian love to such people. But blessing confusion or falsely suggesting a heavenly future without gender or with an acquired gender identity
Is false.

This brings to mind that instead of spending billions of dollars on physical weapons and soldiers to fight ISIS, the world should be spending all that money on ideological warfare against ISIS (and its ilk), defeating its very ideology of violence in the minds of its leaders and recruits. For the pen is mightier than the sword.

And the Mother of all Ideological Bombs against ISIS (and its ilk) would be an all-out, worldwide promotion of Islamic Pacifism, supported and maintained by highly-respected Islamic scholars all around the world who aren't terrorists.

The Saudis, Iranians and Qatarans clearly spend a fortune doing the opposite. But sometimes I wonder if radical Islam is not a far more effective evangelistic tool than the tame humanised version you propose and which countries like the UAE promote. The world be more peaceful but less motivated to find the truth and leave Islam behind.

But, sadly, the U.S. will never go for any such campaign. For its government is controlled by the Military-Industrial Complex, which makes hundreds of billions of dollars every year off of continual warfare, formerly against Communism, and now against Islamic terrorism. This Complex absolutely loves ISIS (and its ilk), for it continually fills their bank accounts to overflowing.

Just another proof that:

1 Timothy 6:10 . . . the love of money is the root of all evil . . .

We need the US military cause Communism and Radical Islam are or were clear and present dangers to Christian civilisation. But whether the military needs to be supersized as it is now is another discussion.

There has been such a place, but there hasn't been any such genetic identity.

For the Palestinians are simply Arabs, not their own race which needs their own nation-state. They can live on any Arab land within the truly gigantic Arab territory stretching all the way from Oman to Morocco. And this Arab territory includes Jordan and Egypt.

--

Also, regarding vehement, anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian persons:

Why should someone become hyper-concerned about the Israelis' dispossession of such a small sliver of the Arabs' total land, which stretches all the way from Oman to Morocco? Why not also become hyper-concerned about, for example, the U.S.'s and Canada's dispossession of almost all of the American Indians' land, stretching across North America? Or Australia's and New Zealand's dispossession of almost all of the aborigines' land? Also, why would someone completely reject the Jews' ancestral/historical/Biblical claim to the land of Canaan? Is it possible that anti-Semitism is involved in some way? Why can't the Jews have even such a small piece of land for themselves, especially in light of what happened to them in the Holocaust?

Agreed the land was given to the Jews. The "Palestinians" should find homes and jobs in Egypt and Jordan from where most came. The Palestinian identity is a fabrication with no basis in historical reality which in the modern era serves a radical Muslim and anti Semitic agenda.
 
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ananda

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How do we decide what is a valid identity and what is not?
Who decides?
Should we attempt to enforce identity or merely accept it as given?
How would you prioritise the above 5 criteria for instance?
There is no permanent identity by virtue of the fact that nothing identified is permanent. The idea of and clinging to an identity of a permanent "self" is the cause of all division, fighting, and competition in the world today.
 
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mindlight

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There is no permanent identity by virtue of the fact that nothing identified is permanent. The idea of and clinging to an identity of a permanent "self" is the cause of all division, fighting, and competition in the world today.

That sounds Buddhist. A Christians identity is formed in response to God and to His call upon our lives. It is an other seeking love that affirms and demonstrates our true character. But the idea of a permanent self identity is not a problem once we move beyond the sins that break, poison and confuse us as to who we really are. The aim of life is not to escape the pains of our aspirations to grow to be like Christ ourselves but rather to work through those pains. Sin is the problem of the human self and Christ is its perfect model.
 
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