'Persecuted' Western Christians Should Grow Up

[USincognito]

I wasn't going to respond to the obvious flame this thread title implies but I couldn't resist.
And sure enough it didn't disappoint. A slam on Christians posted by a Humanist.

I think the irony is as wide as the Atlantic, but far more shallow.
God forgive.

That you clearly didn't read the OP, and just ad homed the OPer is even more ironic.

 

[Saleena]

Persecution of christians in the US? Not likely, they can swear oaths on their bibles, have 3 churches for every starbucks, several free access channels dedicated to their religion, and overall acceptance. Disagreeing with your views is not persecution.

When you have to be afraid to even walk alone then you can maybe understand.

 

[USincognito]

...forcing people who live on public assistance to receive an RFID chip which is included in Obamacare (Please see the thread on I think called "Almost here" on Christian Current Events) which will begin in October, which includes all seniors, those on Medicare and Medicaid and those receiving Public Aid,

O.k. folks. We're stepping into Prophecy Club territory here...


(Google "Prophecy club stan johnson" if you're unfamiliar with this group - especially their incarnation pre-2000.)

 

[dies-l]

These are major, major tenants of the faith and I can hear your stammering now, "but people who don't believe X aren't really Christian."

And, in many cases, they would be right to say that and would have no reason to stammer. Christians do believe in the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, the perfection of Christ, the bodily death and resurrection of Christ, and resurrection of believers to come. I would have no problem saying that anyone who did not believe in one or more of the above might be sincere, and may even sincerely seek to follow Jesus, but they are not Christian.

As far as the other issues are concerned,there is at least some room for reasonable disagreement. And I welcome ecumenism among those whose profession of faith is consistent on the essentials even if we disagree on the details (like when to baptize, the nature of hell, etc.).

 

[usexpat97]

O.k. folks. We're stepping into Prophecy Club territory here...

If current events are becoming Prophecy Club, then that is what they are doing.

 

[dies-l]

Paul's misogyny notwithstanding, amirite?

I used to feel the same way until I studied the historical context of the Pauline corpus. Paul was actually quite liberal and forward thinking on issues of gender, considering his time and culture.

 

[dies-l]

If current events are becoming Prophecy Club, then that is what they are doing.

As much as I am coming to despise Obama, the claims about RFID chips are absurd

 

[dies-l]

garbage. the OP was claiming that since persecution is not as bad as in some other countries then it isn't actually persecution.

.

It seems that, if we claim that there is bona fide persecution of Christians in this country, then we have reduced the meaning of the word "persecution" to the point that it has become essentially meaningless. The same is being done to words like bullying, racism, and homophobia.

 

[Hetta]

Giving your own opinion = free speech. Choosing where to eat and not to eat = no problem. Campaigning to stop a store being opened simply because a person has a different opinion on homosexuality to you = persecution.

Nope. It's called campaigning, and it's a part of free speech and it is entirely legal, therefore no persecution.

And on another note - I feel no sympathy for a millionaire who makes food that is inherently bad for the human body and thought he could shout off his mouth without anyone shouting right back. Poor, poor millionaire. It must be hard when you think you are untouchable and then, oops, someone calls you on your garbage. I only feel sympathy for the innocent kids who are force fed their terrible food. I look at the Christian "body" in the majority of churches as they drove off to the nearest CFA to "support the Bible" and every single family was obese to morbidly obese. It's a nauseating sight.

That the bible does not mention Chik Fil A is totally irrelevant. What does matter is does the bible talk about the situation. The NT tends to teach principles to follow rather than specific laws like the OT did. The bible speaks about everything if you follow the principles taught. The bible doesn't mention heroin or LSD after all.

What situation do you think the NT talks about that relates to boycotting a fast food store? I mean, seriously? I'm not going to even go to down the "drug" road, because as you are perfectly aware, there is plenty of scripture that warns about drunkenness and addiction and breaking laws (and also gluttony).

 

[dies-l]

Nope. It's called campaigning, and it's a part of free speech and it is entirely legal, therefore no persecution.

And on another note - I feel no sympathy for a millionaire who makes food that is inherently bad for the human body and thought he could shout off his mouth without anyone shouting right back. Poor, poor millionaire. It must be hard when you think you are untouchable and then, oops, someone calls you on your garbage. I only feel sympathy for the innocent kids who are force fed their terrible food. I look at the Christian "body" in the majority of churches as they drove off to the nearest CFA to "support the Bible" and every single family was obese to morbidly obese. It's a nauseating sight.

What situation do you think the NT talks about that relates to boycotting a fast food store? I mean, seriously? I'm not going to even go to down the "drug" road, because as you are perfectly aware, there is plenty of scripture that warns about drunkenness and addiction and breaking laws (and also gluttony).

I would be very careful about arguing that legal = not persecution. Some of the most egregious forms of persecution are done under color of law. Much of the persecution of Christians, Buddhists, and Muslims in China is perfectly legal (even encouraged) under Chinese law, but it is still persecution.

 

[RDKirk]

In biblical times abortion was not seen as wrong. the jewish view was and is that life begins with the first breath as that is when adams life began. the current view that you can't be christian and support abortion only came about around 1980.

However, by at most 140 AD, the Church considered abortion wrong because we have the witness of Athenagoras before Caesar pointing out that the Church had long been preaching against it. Romans at the time were practicing both chemical and surgical abortions, as well as infanticide, practices the Church even then taught were evil.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

You might want to hold off on that request for an apology...
There's plenty more of this type of footage if you look for it.

Hi, Incognito

Let's not steer completely off course, if we can help it. Lethe said that the Russian LAW -- which bans the pushing of pro-gay propaganda upon young people -- attacked homosexuals for "being" homosexuals. It does not, and Lethe would do himself and others a favor, by simply saying, "I was wrong about that."

Having put that issue aright, maybe we can get back to what the OP was actually about, namely, whether or not Western Christians in general are being persecuted -- not homosexual ones. As someone has already pointed out, the thread itself was created as a subtle anti-Christian flame; so please forgive me for not responding much here.

Thank you for taking the time to post.

Shalom shalom.

 

[Iosias]

Yay for Williams!

 

[Lethe]

Lethe said that the Russian LAW -- which bans the pushing of pro-gay propaganda upon young people -- attacked homosexuals for "being" homosexuals.

Actually, no I didn't.

The difference between this and the first map is that The Russians have taken a stand against extraordinary homosexual rights, whereas Latin American Catholics have not.

Which of course is the extraordinary homosexual right of acknowledging your existence in public.

You seem to have quite the problem with parsing the nuances of our language, what with this and your prior problem with conflating having sex with talking about sex.


But... I'm not going to so far as to demand an apology for your confusion.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

It seems that, if we claim that there is bona fide persecution of Christians in this country, then we have reduced the meaning of the word "persecution" to the point that it has become essentially meaningless. The same is being done to words like bullying, racism, and homophobia.

Dag,

I agree with you, about the lamentable beating the English language has taken all around lately.

I have an opinion concerning persecution, which I will present to you for what it's worth. Paul said,

Ephesians 6:
[10] Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
[11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
[12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
[13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
[14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
[15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
[16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
[17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
[18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

There are certainly physical attacks against Christians in the US (the Waco Massacre is the prime example); but the brunt of the assault against Christians is not, at the moment, a move to physically exterminate them. The Waco Christians, after all, had to be labelled as a "cult" and accused of immorality in order to justify their slaughter. That is because the majority opinion in this country is favorably inclined towards what appear to be "normal" Christians. ANY Christian group in this country is vulnerable to the full force of what happened at Waco, however -- all the govenment has to do, is paint one's group as an immoral cult, and they are toast. That said, the brunt of the assault against believers is not physical; it is taking place, as Paul said, in the spirit -- in the schools, in the media, on blogs and forums, and yes, in the law.

Shalom shalom

 

[dies-l]

Dag,

I agree with you, about the lamentable beating the English language has taken all around lately.

I have an opinion concerning persecution, which I will present to you for what it's worth. Paul said,

[10] Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
[11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
[12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
[13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
[14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
[15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
[16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
[17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
[18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

There are certainly physical attacks against Christians in the US (the Waco Massacre is the prime example); but the brunt of the assault against Christians is not, at the moment, a move to physically exterminate them. The Waco Christians, after all, had to be labelled as a "cult" and accused of immorality in order to justify their slaughter. That is because the majority opinion in this country is inclined towards what appear to be "normal" Christians. ANY Christian group in this country is vulnerable to the full force of what happened at Waco, however -- all the govenment has to do, is paint one's group as an immoral cult, and they are toast. That said, the brunt of the assault against believers is not physical; it is taking place, as Paul said, in the spirit -- in the schools, in the media, on blogs and forums, and yes, in the law.

Shalom shalom

First of all, if you have to look back 20 years to find an example to cite, then it can hardly be argued that persecution is commonplace.

Second of all, I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree as to whether Waco fits the bill of religious persecution. Clearly, it was a government overstep. But, as far as I can tell the Branch Davidians' religious views had little if anything to do with it.

 

[Hetta]

Koresh was not a Christian.

 

[Parson Rayphe]

It looks like there have been a whooole lot of pearls cast here in this thread.

But for the Christians here, this comment was previously made:

"First of all, if you have to look back 20 years to find an example to cite, then it can hardly be argued that persecution is commonplace."

No they are not "commonplace", but here are some recent examples of physical violence and threats of violence against Christians -- No big deal unless you happen to be one of the targets --:o.

No doubt the recipients of the other pearls cast here on this thread will mock and discount these examples for one reason or another... but for the rest, perhaps this will help shed some more light on the subject.

Here is the link. You will need to copy and paste it into a new tab.
christianpersecutioninamerica.com/category/prevent-violence-crimes-against-christians/

Here are some more:
christianpersecutioninamerica.com/category/christian-persecution-america-persecuted-church-discrimination-news/

 

[RDKirk]

What's happening in the West (and particularly in the US) is that Christianity is losing its socially beneficial status of "most favored religion," and Christians in America are terrified of that prospect.

In terms of the true power of Christ and His manifestation in the Church that is His body, that's a good thing to happen. If the Church is socially favored in the world, then it's not the true Church.

 

[Parson Rayphe]

If the Church is socially favored in the world, then it's not the true Church.

Excellent point RD