Perpetual Virgin Mary?

[FaithT]

Does the LCMS believe Mary remained a virgin all her life? I just read something that says we do, but as far as I’ve known, we don’t believe that.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

According to the Bible Jesus has siblings, so no. Jesus was Mary's first child though and she was a virgin still after giving birth to him.

 

[Till Schilling]

Does the LCMS believe Mary remained a virgin all her life? I just read something that says we do, but as far as I’ve known, we don’t believe that.

I don’t think the LCMS teaches it and it is not in the confessions BUT many early Lutherans believed it. Including one Martin Luther.

See also Subscribing to the Lutheran Confessions – WELS

 

[FaithT]

I don’t think the LCMS teaches it and it is not in the confessions BUT many early Lutherans believed it. Including one Martin Luther.

See also Subscribing to the Lutheran Confessions – WELS

The Catholic Church believes that she remained a virgin all her life and that Jesus’ brothers and sisters were really step-siblings or cousins.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Does the LCMS believe Mary remained a virgin all her life? I just read something that says we do, but as far as I’ve known, we don’t believe that.

As far as I can know, no Lutheran body requires belief in the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin. That said, in the Latin translation of the the Smalcald Articles she is called sempervirgine--"ever-virgin". Which is why the English text of the Smalcald Articles includes "and always" in brackets here,

"That the Son became man in this manner, that He was conceived, without the cooperation of man, by the Holy Ghost, and was born of the pure, holy [and always] Virgin Mary. Afterwards He suffered, died, was buried, descended to hell, rose from the dead, ascended to heaven, sits at the right hand of God, will come to judge the quick and the dead, etc., as the Creed of the Apostles, as well as that of St. Athanasius, and the Catechism in common use for children, teach." - Smalcald Articles, Part I, IV

The original German lacks the "and always" or "ever", but the Latin includes it.

One is not bound to have to believe it, but it is fully consistent with Lutheranism to believe it. At least, that is how I understand the matter. And as far as I know, that applies to all Lutheran bodies.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[J_B_]

It seems unlikely she was. Though some explain away Matthew 13:55-56, Mark 6:3, Galatians 1:19, and 1 Corinthians 9:5 (along with some comments in the Church Fathers) I've never found them convincing.

Rather, as Mary was propelled to goddess-hood in the pop Christianity of the Middle Ages, she probably became ever-virgin because people thought it made her holier. It was a common theme for idealized women of the time.

The Cult of Mary has many peculiar stories - flowers springing up from her footsteps and on and on.

 

[FaithT]

It seems unlikely she was. Though some explain away Matthew 13:55-56, Mark 6:3, Galatians 1:19, and 1 Corinthians 9:5 (along with some comments in the Church Fathers) I've never found them convincing.

Rather, as Mary was propelled to goddess-hood in the pop Christianity of the Middle Ages, she probably became ever-virgin because people thought it made her holier. It was a common theme for idealized women of the time.

The Cult of Mary has many peculiar stories - flowers springing up from her footsteps and on and on.

What are some other strange stories about Mary? I’m a former Catholic and would be interested in hearing more.

 

[J_B_]

What are some other strange stories about Mary? I’m a former Catholic and would be interested in hearing more.

I don't know if it's a good idea to perpetuate those stories, but 3 apocryphal texts that mention Mary and are commonly referenced are:
1) Protoevangelium of James
2) Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew
3) Gospel of the Nativity of Mary

 

[FaithT]

I don't know if it's a good idea to perpetuate those stories, but 3 apocryphal texts that mention Mary and are commonly referenced are:
1) Protoevangelium of James
2) Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew
3) Gospel of the Nativity of Mary

I’ve only heard of the first one but don’t really know anything about it.

 

[prodromos]

I don't know if anyone else here has grown up with an exceptional older brother, but in my experience, the eldest brother can have a huge impact on his younger siblings. My own brother had a deep love for God from an early age and was wise beyond his years. Unlike other families I have known, my older brother never teased me or mistreated me in any way. He has always been a positive example to myself and my younger brothers. I have a deep love and respect for my oldest brother.
My experience would pale in comparison to younger siblings growing up with Jesus as their oldest brother. His deep love and compassion, gentle guidance and lack of judgement would have had a lasting impact on them. When their father Joseph had passed away, Jesus would have unquestioningly been head of their household.

The Gospel accounts of Jesus' siblings do not reflect such a reality. His brothers try to take control over Him, they try to direct Him. This does not jive at all with my own experience. IMHO they are acting like older brothers with a younger, celebrity sibling. I believe the Gospel accounts are completely consistent with Jesus siblings being older than Him which would be the case if Joseph was a widower with grown children of his own when Mary was betrothed to him.

I also don't believe that if the early Church understood that Mary had had other children, that a false teaching about her having remained a virgin could have ever gained traction, let alone be believed by the entirety of the Church in the 4th Century.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Does the LCMS believe Mary remained a virgin all her life? I just read something that says we do, but as far as I’ve known, we don’t believe that.

Anyone who says that they do not accept the perpetual virginity is at odds with the confessions of the LCMS and LCC; i.e.: The Book of Concord. Many do not. Shame.

 

[Mountainmike]

According to the Bible Jesus has siblings, so no. Jesus was Mary's first child though and she was a virgin still after giving birth to him.

I don’t know whether this is a welcome post, and believe what you will.

But there is a lot of misinformation from people using English translations! The word “ Adelphos” translated as brother is used in many contexts, not even just family, all the disciples are called adelphos at one point - Abraham calls lot by the same word. So sibling is one of many contexts, not conclusive.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

I don’t know whether this is a welcome post, and believe what you will.

But there is a lot of misinformation from people using English translations! The word “ Adelphos” translated as brother is used in many contexts, not even just family, all the disciples are called adelphos at one point - Abraham calls lot by the same word. So sibling is one of many contexts, not conclusive.

Wdym "welcome post"? You're in the Lutheran forum here, not the Catholic one.
When you look into your Bible you will read of Jesus:
"Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” And they took offense at him."

I don't know how you manage to interpret "brothers" differently here. These are the people Jesus grew up with. They name his brothers in the same sentence as his mother Mary (who you'd probably agree is his actual, real mother). They are obviously talking about Jesus' biological father (the carpenter), his biological mother (Mary) and - non-biological siblings? Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

 

[Mountainmike]

I’m just pointing out the word “ adelphos” is used In many contexts and To mean many things ( some not even referring to blood relation family at all) only one of which meaning is sibling. So extrapolating the word brother or brothers to mean only sibling is simplistic.

I thought readers might think that is interesting: As I said believe what you will. I’m not trying to persuade anyone, of anything.

Out of curiosity, I thought the earliest lutherans believed in perpetual virginity the so called “ smalcald articles? “, which is why I found this thread surprising?

ps: just checked. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli , even Cranmer believed in perpetual virginity? It would be interesting to know when it changed?

Wdym "welcome post"? You're in the Lutheran forum here, not the Catholic one.
When you look into your Bible you will read of Jesus:
"Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” And they took offense at him."

I don't know how you manage to interpret "brothers" differently here. These are the people Jesus grew up with. They name his brothers in the same sentence as his mother Mary (who you'd probably agree is his actual, real mother). They are obviously talking about Jesus' biological father (the carpenter), his biological mother (Mary) and - non-biological siblings? Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Out of curiosity, I thought the earliest lutherans believed in perpetual virginity the so called “ smalcald articles? “, which is why I found this thread surprising?

ps: just checked. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli , even Cranmer believed in perpetual virginity? It would be interesting to know when it changed?

Luther himself indeed believed that (though I don't find it surprising since he was Catholic for 34 years), but it wasn't a united opinion in the first protestant churches. In fact the original smalcald articles (which I am able to read because I happen to be German) don't contain perpetual virginity. Luther was against any kind of veneration of saints and Mary wasn't important anymore - hence nobody in the protestant church bothered to really argue about it.
I couldn't name a Lutheran church here in Germany today that still believes in perpetual virginity.

 

[Mountainmike]

Luther himself indeed believed that (though I don't find it surprising since he was Catholic for 34 years), but it wasn't a united opinion in the first protestant churches. In fact the original smalcald articles (which I am able to read because I happen to be German) don't contain perpetual virginity. Luther was against any kind of veneration of saints and Mary wasn't important anymore - hence nobody in the protestant church bothered to really argue about it.
I couldn't name a Lutheran church here in Germany today that still believes in perpetual virginity.

I only have the English translation of smalcald which says in the
“ FIRST PART” section IV

“ IV. That the Son became man in this manner, that He was conceived, without the cooperation of man, by the Holy Ghost, and was born of the pure, holy [and always] Virgin Mary

I assumed the “ and always” virgin was luthers own hand?

https://www.scribd.com/document/255654906/Luther-Martin-Smalcald-Articles-English-Translation

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

I only have the English translation of smalcald which says in the
“ FIRST PART” section IV

“ IV. That the Son became man in this manner, that He was conceived, without the cooperation of man, by the Holy Ghost, and was born of the pure, holy [and always] Virgin Mary

I assumed the “ and always” virgin was luthers own hand?

https://www.scribd.com/document/255654906/Luther-Martin-Smalcald-Articles-English-Translation

Unfortunately I have to disappoint you there. Whoever translated the original German to English did sadly a bad job..
As you may see here I got the original Version:

The "First Part" looks like this:

You can now type that into a translator if you wish, or you trust me on my German-skills. In the third line of section IV it says (word by word): "and from the pure, holy virgin Mary born".

 

[Mountainmike]

I trust you!

I was just curious, I thought the first reformers believed in perpetual virginity, and I think you confirmed that..

Unfortunately I have to disappoint you there. Whoever translated the original German to English did sadly a bad job..
As you may see here I got the original Version:
View attachment 296407

The "First Part" looks like this:
View attachment 296409

You can now type that into a translator if you wish, or you trust me on my German-skills. In the third line of section IV it says (word by word): "and from the pure, holy virgin Mary born".

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

I trust you!

I was just curious, I thought the first reformers believed in perpetual virginity, and I think you confirmed that..

They did, but it didn't really matter to them. Do you see the difference? In Catholicism a whole doctrine is built around Mary and her virginity, while the protestants (including the reformers) think that Jesus is the important one, not Mary. Mary didn't play a major role anymore and the reformers didn't deem it necessary to mention their belief in her (perpetual) virginity. The only important thing for the reformers was that Mary was a virgin when receiving Jesus, everything afterwards and whether until she died or not was irrelevant.
You can belief something without making it the center of your beliefs, that's why the reformers, even though believing in perpetual virginity, didn't make it part of their writings.

EDIT: That Mary was a virgin when receiving Jesus is still an important part of what we believe by the way. Just the perpetual part got lost - either because it is not necessary or because of the verse I quoted above, or even for both reasons.

 

[prodromos]

As you may see here I got the original Version

Original? That's in remarkable condition for a book that is over 4 centuries old.